Sorcerer/wizard role reversal in ddo vs pnp

[Truga]

Dunno if this is the right section, but I feel it fits here more than the general gameplay.

What I have found, when comparing ddo to d&d, was that while sorc in d&d offers a more flexible caster in d&d, in ddo it's the other way around. Anyone else got this feeling?

In ddo, both classes are limited primarily by their SP pool. Sorc has 4 spells per spell level memorized, wizard 5, so not that much difference there. However, both can cast any spell in their spell pool, as long as they have the SP.

In d&d however, wizard had to memorize spells he wanted to cast the next day, which meant that as long as the sorcerer knew mostly useful spells, they were a lot more flexible.

Example: Your party stumbles into a bunch of skellies. For dealing with skeletons, the wizard has memorized a couple fireballs(universal damage spell), and a haste (buff the party). He also has some other things memorized, which might, or might not help him later, but these are the spells he has which help with killing said skeletons. He might also choose to memorize 3 fireballs instead, or just 3 hastes and wait for the party to dispose of said baddies.

The sorcerer, however, as long as he has both these spells in his repertoire (mine always will, as long as he has the levels for it), can choose whichever combination is better in his current situation. He can on the spot choose to just dump 3 fireballs through the door, or drop a haste instead. This is invaluable flexibility that wizards just don't posses in pnp, especially since you generally don't know the campaign you're playing, and thus can't prepare spells beforehand exactly how you'll want to use them.

In DDO, this flexibility advantage is lost however, since both classes can cast any spell from their spell pool, and further gimped by the fact that you only get 4 known spells per level, and that metamagic feats, while in pnp were freely chosen by only the sorc, are now also freely chosen by the wizard.

On the other hand, the sorcerer here still sports a much greater spell point pool, much like in pnp, and as an added boost, can spam spells faster.

Also as a disclaimer, I'm still on my first playthrough of ddo (my highest char is level 14), and thus don't know the quests very well, or at all. I made both a wizard, and a sorc, and found out that while sorc is a bit easier to play here due to larger spell pool, it doesn't really offer anything over the wizard so far. And, after I get to know the quests better, wizard can run through just as easy as the sorc, thanks to free spell swapping at shrines.

[Darkrok]

There have been arguments as to which one is better since the beginning of DDO which leads me to believe the dev's got this one right. The two are balanced.

[Truga]

There have been arguments as to which one is better since the beginning of DDO which leads me to believe the dev's got this one right. The two are balanced.

Yeah, I'm not saying they aren't balanced. Just that the roles feel reversed in ddo, as opposed to pnp d&d.

Edit: While I prefer the wizard for it's infinite versatility in ddo, I found the sorcerer much easier to play, due to it's rather... huge spell point pool. My final plan is to TR wiz 3 times, then roll a sorc from that though. After 3 TRs, I'll know exactly which spells I should take and just roll over all the content.

In pnp, it'd be probably the other way around. Finish a campaign with a sorc, then if replaying choose wizard and select the spell you know will be perfect for the situation. That said, not many spells are very useful in ddo, so that part of wizard kinda comes crashing down after you know the entire game inside out... And sorc can swap spells, even though it's just one every 3 days.

[Angelus_dead]

Here's one reversal:
In D&D a Wizard casts faster, while in DDO a Sorcerer is faster.

This is because:
1. DDO adds a sorcerer speed boost not present in D&D.
2. D&D forbids sorcerers from using Quicken metamagic.

[SquelchHU]

You are wrong. Completely and utterly.

In PnP Wizard > Sorcerer no contest. As a Wizard's versatility actually matters there, and if it really came down to it the Wizard could beat the Sorcerer at his own game there is no circumstance in which a Wizard would not be universally superior... well unless you count more 1st level spells at level 12, or something similarly laughable. Everything about the Wizard, from casting stat to class features to actual spell casting is superior.

DDO is the opposite. Number of useful spells usually = number of spells a Sorcerer can take at once. So a Wizard is just like a Sorcerer, except with about a third less SP, slower casting, and nothing to compensate for it except a few feats... But there aren't many useful feats, either. Also, Cha is superior to Int as a stat on DDO.

And I have no idea what you're even talking about with the Metamagics. But if that's supposed to be a point in favor of Sorcerers, it isn't because Skip Hates Sorcerers.

[Truga]

You are wrong. Completely and utterly.

In PnP Wizard > Sorcerer no contest. As a Wizard's versatility actually matters there, and if it really came down to it the Wizard could beat the Sorcerer at his own game there is no circumstance in which a Wizard would not be universally superior... well unless you count more 1st level spells at level 12, or something similarly laughable. Everything about the Wizard, from casting stat to class features to actual spell casting is superior.

I can see where you're coming from, and I agree, a wizard is much more versatile than a sorcerer.

However, I find sorcerers just more flexible in combat. If I memorized 5 fireballs as a wizard (dumb I know, but let's say the intel said we're walking into a troll nest), and inside said troll nest cave I walk over a spawn of salamanders, I, and probably my party (we were expecting to meet a bunch of trolls, but instead after a couple already burnt trolls stepped into a swarm of salamanders that owned said trolls), are pretty much screwed. As a sorcerer, I have at level 3 both fireball and haste, and can cast whichever I want, whenever I want.

Now, at level 2 I also have a snowball swarm. Wizard also has this as backup, but he only memorized one or two, as he did not expect salamanders of all things. I, however can cast plenty. As an added bonus, if I run out of level 2 spell slots, I can cast the same snowball swarm as level 3 spells spontaneously by heightening or still spelling them. A wizard will not be able to do this, he would have had to memorize them beforehand.

I guess in the end it falls down to playstyle again, but I just prefer the sorcerer's flexibility over wizard's pre-memorized spells.

DDO is the opposite. Number of useful spells usually = number of spells a Sorcerer can take at once. So a Wizard is just like a Sorcerer, except with about a third less SP, slower casting, and nothing to compensate for it except a few feats... But there aren't many useful feats, either. Also, Cha is superior to Int as a stat on DDO.

And I have no idea what you're even talking about with the Metamagics. But if that's supposed to be a point in favor of Sorcerers, it isn't because Skip Hates Sorcerers.

About metamagics see snowball swarm trick above.

About Skip hating sorcerers... I can't argue that. I wish sorcerers worked better than they do, but a well built sorcerer can work very, very well as crowd control, but with far greater usefulness over the wizard when there's surprise rapings to be had. And frankly, that's what usually happens in the challenging campaigns.

If you know exactly what you're going into, a wizard is miles (and I do mean miles) better. Always knowing everything beforehand makes a campaign utterly boring though, so no thanks.

About INT being better, I always took ~14 int on my pnp sorcerers, just for the skillpoints. No need for min/maxing cha/con like in ddo.. The party will take care of smaller encounters, and the caster is there for some epic crowd control.

[Aspenor]

A smart PnP wizard will have spells memorized that work universally. Levels 1-2 he will have Grease, and maybe a Color Spray for enemies that it works on. Grease works on everything at level 1, and is an amazing spell until enemies are all flying.

At levels 3 & 4 the wizard has Web, Glitterdust, and Alter Self. He doesn't need anything else for combat, as the above spells (particularly glitterdust, and Alter Self if he is in a pinch) solve all combat encounters at those levels, and Alter Self offers incredible versatility for non-combat.

At levels 5 & 6, the wizard still has his awesome level 2 spells and gets Stinking Cloud, which is nice for taking other casters out of the game.

At level 7, the smart wizard gains Polymorph. Using the correct forms for Polymorph, the wizard can single-handedly stomp almost any combat encounter into the dirt. He also gains the awesome Evard's Black Tentacles, and the "I Win" button Solid Fog.

Note that none of these spells are damage dealing spells. They are, however, nearly universally useful in combat, and negate the need for him to have damage spells (which he shouldn't be bothering with).

Beyond level 7, his options just grow and grow. The spontaneous casting of the sorcerer means nothing when the wizard selects the right spells.

To say that a SMART wizard will have Snowball Swarm or Fireball memorized is silly, because he would be wasting his time doing paltry damage. You kill trolls with torches, not fireballs.

[Truga]

I guess it really just depends on playstyle then..

I prefer to just nuke everything into the ground, while throwing a haste here and there. I've never had problems with any encounter when playing sorc like this. Well, except at level 1-3, having only level 1 spells until level 4 blows royally, as does getting spells 1 level later.

[samthedagger]

I happen to believe the sorcerer and wizard behave very much the same in DDO as they do in D&D. The sorcerer is the one with the true blasting power, but limited versatility. The wizard is the one with the flexibility and limited blasting power. Wizards can easily swap spells to fit the situation and there are plenty of places in-game where this is called for; and a group with two wizards is very different from a group with one. Sorcerers can swap spells, albeit very slowly and expensively, but they really shine as arcane cannons able to dish out the hurt, still leaving enough spell slots available for the most cherished of buffs like haste. Both are a tad weak at low levels, very destructive at mid levels, and plateau out as primarily buffers at high level. These things all seem to hold true for both DDO and D&D in general. Now I do feel casters are more powerful in D&D since they can do more than just combat, and DDO, for better or for worse, is 99% combat. But otherwise they mirror their respective counterparts in more ways than not. At least IMHO.

[SquelchHU]

I guess it really just depends on playstyle then..

I prefer to just nuke everything into the ground, while throwing a haste here and there. I've never had problems with any encounter when playing sorc like this. Well, except at level 1-3, having only level 1 spells until level 4 blows royally, as does getting spells 1 level later.

Then you shouldn't be playing D&D, because nuking is too weak to actually take anything to the ground. You cast Fireball and you tickle the enemy. Or you cast a real spell and end it right there. Which do you choose?

And sam manages to be even more wrong than you. I dunno how the hell he managed that.

[timberhick]

Then you shouldn't be playing D&D, because nuking is too weak to actually take anything to the ground. You cast Fireball and you tickle the enemy. Or you cast a real spell and end it right there. Which do you choose?

And sam manages to be even more wrong than you. I dunno how the hell he managed that.

What an absolute crock. So they play the game differently than you. Are you going to next tell them the proper dice and dice rolling techniques to properly play the game. What day they are supposed to play 'real DnD' on.

[RictrasShard]

Then you shouldn't be playing D&D, because nuking is too weak to actually take anything to the ground. You cast Fireball and you tickle the enemy. Or you cast a real spell and end it right there. Which do you choose?

And sam manages to be even more wrong than you. I dunno how the hell he managed that.

WotC should put this piece of advice in their books; if Squelch disagrees with you, then you are doing it right.

[Aashrym]

I agree with with squelch about wiz completely outclassing a sorc in PnP. And A_D has it correct, fast-casting was a reversal.

The extra spell slots the sorc has are meaningless. The wiz will have access to divinations for planning, feats to spend, bonus metamagics/crafting, and a spell selection to accomplish what they need. Scrolls are cheap to craft and all wizards have the feat and the spells selection to add what they need.

Even if a wiz does decide to blast damage out in PnP his options are a quickened spell, and metamagic spell, and a movement. The sorc misses out on the quickened spell and has to choose to either cast a metamagic or a nonmetamagic spell in order to have a move action. Metamagic hampers the sorc, leaving a weaker spell and a move or a stronger spell with loss of mobility.

I do agree there is some role reversal, but I don't think the game play itself is really suffering from it. If we were more true to PnP I can't see sorcerers being nearly as popular as they are now.

PS: With the number of spells that wiz/clr cast there are too many bars open and devoted to spells to make casting practical. The SP pool was originally added to overcome the issue of memorizing individual spells per PnP.

[sainy_matthew]

WotC should put this piece of advice in their books; if Squelch disagrees with you, then you are doing it right.

*hugs RictrasShard*

Thank you...

The nuke it, style is not for everyone but it is a perfectly viable build. Heck take a couple of "reserve feats" & you can do that without even casting a spell. SquelchU has this terrible dislike of people who don't just cast glitterdust to win (no offense to people who like Glitterdust, because its not a bad spell).

As for the PnP Wizard/Sorcerer paradigm both come equipped with versatility, just in slightly different ways. The sorcerer may not have easy access to metamagic feats, but he more then makes up for it with reserve feats & even quite a few sorcerer specific feats (not to forget feats for weapon-like spells).

In the PnP D&D neither the Sorcerer nor the Wizard are better, just different.

-M

[Aspenor]

I guess it really just depends on playstyle then..

I prefer to just nuke everything into the ground, while throwing a haste here and there. I've never had problems with any encounter when playing sorc like this. Well, except at level 1-3, having only level 1 spells until level 4 blows royally, as does getting spells 1 level later.

Hi Welcome

That kind of tactic works remotely decently until about level 8 (at the very, very highest) and then your "nukes" are worth little to nothing unless you really know how to optimize damage. However, you must dedicate much of your character to doing it and you still would have been better off casting non-damaging spells. Without basically dedicating your character to damage and selecting the correct spells your foes laugh at your attempts to tickle them.

As far as the spells issue, say hello to the venerable dragonwrought white dragonspawn loredrake kobold, that gains spells before the wizard (and generally isn't considered acceptable for actual play, but that's another issue altogether). Throw in Mage of the Arcane Order and Sandshaper, and win at life.

WotC should put this piece of advice in their books; if Squelch disagrees with you, then you are doing it right.

If you by "right" you mean "inefficiently," then yes, you are correct.

[RictrasShard]

If you by "right" you mean "inefficiently," then yes, you are correct.

No, it is right the way I worded it.

[sainy_matthew]

No, it is right the way I worded it.

Yep, RistrasShards way was right, it didn't need fixing.

Unfortunately some people here have fallen into the "fighter fun" paradigm, mistaking combat effectiveness for fun. In any combat i'm in i strive for fun first & attempt to optimise combat skills last. The combat effectiveness isn't as important as the fun of the combat... Its the journey not the destination.

Also particular people should keep in mind that less effective, is not the same as unplayable. Heck, said people may want to remember that old maxim "over specialize and die."

Okay, back to the general build concepts: One can quite easily build a sorcerer with the nuke-it principal & still be quite effective. For example if one took fiery burst by 8th level (the apparent cut off line for blaster effectiveness according to Aspenor), one could easily be doing 4D6 points of fire damage a round without casting a spell & without turning ones entire spell list into a spell canon list. You can even have a few of the supposed win spell on your spell list if you want.

-M

[Aspenor]

4d6 fire damage at level 8 is a joke. heck, 4d6 fire damage at level 4 is a joke.

[sainy_matthew]

4d6 fire damage at level 8 is a joke. heck, 4d6 fire damage at level 4 is a joke.

Not really. Its pretty good for no resources spent. If you are in a knock down drag out fight, its a great trick to have up your sleeve. Heck at 6th level fireball only does 6D6, a small increase of only 2 damage dice. Also i'd like to note that at 4th level a sorcerer only has access to 2nd level spells, the highest damage rating at that level using only the PHB is Scorching Ray for 4D6 (at least as far as i can see).

Plus being able to throw fire every single round is kind of fun & really empowering. On top of that, it means that any time in which force applied over a long period of time is needed (like burning through a wooden door barred from the other side, or any encounter where it all goes terribly wrong), the sorcerer doesn't have to worry about running out of spell power before the job is done. Sometimes its not the strength of the single shot, but the amount of time you can keep up the power. Durability over Strength (hence the "Fighter Fun" paradigm). It also allows you to take out less powerful enemies without wasting higher level spells to do it.

-M

[SquelchHU]

You attempt to cast Summon Troll Squad! You roll a 20 - success!

What an absolute crock. So they play the game differently than you. Are you going to next tell them the proper dice and dice rolling techniques to properly play the game. What day they are supposed to play 'real DnD' on.

When you claim something is effective that is in fact ineffective you are completely, utterly, and objectively wrong. And you don't get to hide behind things like 'oh, we just play differently' when someone points out that you are in fact objectively wrong.

-1 rep for trolling. That goes for your friend too.

I agree with with squelch about wiz completely outclassing a sorc in PnP. And A_D has it correct, fast-casting was a reversal.

The extra spell slots the sorc has are meaningless. The wiz will have access to divinations for planning, feats to spend, bonus metamagics/crafting, and a spell selection to accomplish what they need. Scrolls are cheap to craft and all wizards have the feat and the spells selection to add what they need.

The thing is, the wizard can beat the sorcerer AT HIS OWN GAME. As in the Wizard can pretend that he is a Sorcerer, and still do it better. While completely ignoring his own unique abilities. Like being actually able to use Metamagics. And getting all non 1st level spells on time, instead of a level late. And adding new spells to his spellbook beyond the free 2/level.

A Sorcerer 6 gets 1 3rd level spell that he can cast three times. A Wizard 6 gets 4 3rd level spells known, and because no 6th level Wizard has an Int below 16 he gets... *drumroll* 3 slots! So he can fill all three of those slots with whatever spell the sorcerer picked and match him exactly (and then come out ahead the moment he hits Int 24, is a specialist, or otherwise gets one more spell). Or he can... gasp. Prepare DIFFERENT spells. Which ya know, makes him VERSATILE and all.

Of course once the Wizard starts actually using his class abilities the Sorcerer is in every way a gimp Wizard.

Even if a wiz does decide to blast damage out in PnP his options are a quickened spell, and metamagic spell, and a movement. The sorc misses out on the quickened spell and has to choose to either cast a metamagic or a nonmetamagic spell in order to have a move action. Metamagic hampers the sorc, leaving a weaker spell and a move or a stronger spell with loss of mobility.

Of course even being able to throw two in a round is incredibly weak, but being stuck with only one, at the cost of ignoring your passive anti melee defense (namely, that you can move and still be useful... they can't) means Sorcerers even fail at failing.

Hi Welcome

That kind of tactic works remotely decently until about level 8 (at the very, very highest) and then your "nukes" are worth little to nothing unless you really know how to optimize damage. However, you must dedicate much of your character to doing it and you still would have been better off casting non-damaging spells. Without basically dedicating your character to damage and selecting the correct spells your foes laugh at your attempts to tickle them.

Blasting is the best it ever will be at level 5. And level 5 has you doing 17.5 vs 56.24, under optimal conditions. So the best case scenario is you kill it in twice as many rounds as it takes to kill you. Now you can turn a caster into a one trick pony to make nuking do more than give the enemy a good ball scratching but this is like turning a formula 1 car into a grocery getter for your grandmother.

If you by "right" you mean "ineffiectively," then yes, you are correct.

Fixed.

4d6 fire damage at level 8 is a joke. heck, 4d6 fire damage at level 4 is a joke.

4d6 damage at level TWO is a joke. Seriously, 2-3 rounds to kill a level TWO enemy. Except you don't get this at level two, you get it at level eight.

I have 50 bucks on sainy's post being something incredibly stupid, and completely wrong. Anyone want to take that bet?