Help Me With my Drow Sorcerer Build!

[wax_on_wax_off]

So swap extend and toughness? I understand that subtle spellcasting is terrible, but there was nothing else to fill in the slots with. (minimum AP spent for other enhancements.)

On my level 9 sorc somewhat following this build, I find myself crit-ing quite a bit, I usually only use maximize and empower on bosses and tough enemies, and I haven't had any problems dying yet. I also tend to hand out extended blur to everyone and not worrying about re-buffing is nice (for me).

As far as the 12 int goes, I find myself using diplomacy quite a bit. So I want ranks into diplomacy. I realize that having 10 str is probably a good idea, but I don't want to sacrifice my 2 points in int or any con. If someone could explain more about how different stat distributions perform, that would be nice.

Skills:
Should I put a rank into tumble just so I can use it?
Is diplomacy really not worth it for a sorcerer?
Would balance be a good idea if diplomacy isn't?

Enhancements:
Is there anything else with similar AP costs to subtle spellcasting that I could use to fill gaps for required AP in other enhancements?

Feats:
Should toughness and extend be swapped in my feats?
I am deliberately avoiding spells with SR, because I don't want to take the spell penetration feats.
I'll try to come up with a spell list soon. That would help with decisions too.
So far, I am debating between mental toughness and evocation focus. Almost all of my spells are evocation or buffs, and while I realize that sorcs have quite enough SP already, I still want more to maximize my effectiveness. If there are any other good feats as a nuker sorc with no CC and almost nothing with SR, please tell me.

Yes, absolutely need spell pen feats to use Firewall which is most useful spell more or less. Makes leveling up in undead heavy content a breeze. Also very useful for Epic content where no other spell will do the trick.

Yes, you need some insta-death and CC spells, don't go without them. You can still be the nuker that you want to be while having these spells handy so that people in your party won't hate you.
Some quests, like let sleeping dust lie, cannot be completed unless you have a specific spell. Let Sleeping Dust Lie, has a 1 enemy and 5 hostiles that you aren't allowed to kill in each encounter. If you want to do this quest then you need finger of death to take out the single enemy so the others will no longer be hostile. No nuking spell can effectively single out this single enemy without hitting one of the others. If you choose to go the "pure nuker" path then you won't be able to do this quest unless you go with others who can and just buff them and sit back.
Crowd Control is the same, there are some crowd control spells that you simply have to have. Ottos irrestible dance and sphere of dancing are just much to useful not to take.

Few concerns:
Nuker: a nuker can never have enough SP to continuously cast no SR spells and keep up with DPS of melee types. The best DPS spell is firewall which has an SR check and so you will want those spell penetration feats or at least one of them. The problem is that it is easy to have good DPS as a sorc while still being able to use some very handy CC spells. I would suggest concentrating on a more balanced sorcerer approach which can focus on nuking if that is what you want to do but will still be able to have the versatility that you need to solo or play in a group.

Fire/cold: Don't limit yourself to just 2 energy types, there is enough enemies in the game that are immune to fire and cold to make this a bad idea. Invest a couple of points into acid/electricity and keep at least 1 acid and 1 lightning spell prepped for when it is useful. Oozes, blackbone skeletons etc, really benefit from having acid blast or chain lightning. Also, before level 8 when you get firewall its better to be specced as acid/lightning sorcerer to maximise DPS against oozes.

Drow: drow is a bad choice imo for a sorcerer. To my understanding in the current state of the game human and drow can gain the same modifier on their charisma but the human is much better as has a lot of extra HP. Therefore, human for maximum DCs with good HP or WF are the best choices for sorcerer. As a nuking drow sorcerer you simply wouldn't have enough HP to survive the aggro you will get.

Skills: i like having extra skill points as a sorcerer, 1 rank in tumble, some balance, some intimidate are quite useful. Intimidate lets you pull mobs into your firewalls when the annoying melee characters are too dumb too. UMD and concentration are obvious.

Feats: (in order) toughness, maximise, empower, extend, heighten, spell penetration, greater spell penetration. If human ... 1 more, enlarge?

[Postumus]

Wow. Great thread.


Great advice from Vorpel, lunzatis, tinyelvis, and others.


I can definitely incorporate this with my Drow wiz & Drow sorc toons.


thanks!

[Xiadais]

ekniff: I understand what you mean. However, my plan is to be a nuker.
Yep, I now realize that what Lunzatis said had a different meaning from what I interpreted it to be. It threw me off, with the statement about "problem with no spell pen" and "damage spells being resisted"... I linked the two together and made it into "you need spell pen for damaging spells to hit", which was not what he said. Thanks for telling me.


wax_on_wax_off: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Spell:Wall_of_Fire
Firewall does NOT have spell resistance. No evocation spells do (well maybe a few, but generally speaking...)

2nd paragraph lump: I understand what you mean. I do have the two "best" insta-death spells, but I suppose that now I have spell pen I can take a couple of the good CCs.

nuker: Pretty much what I'm doing.

fire/cold: I can't invest any AP into acid/elec unless I want to leave out a few of my more important enhancements. I do realize that a lot of stuff resists both fire and cold, though. I tend to just leave blackbones, etc to the melees. Plus, if I do that, I don't waste SP (well I don't get killcount either, but killcount is USELESS and DOES NOT MATTER). If I just have a splash of acid/elec for some of the things I can't otherwise hurt, I'll be happy doing damage at all and I don't think I need AP invested into it unless I want to have acid/elec have a more important role (which I don't).

drow: I realize that drow and human are currently tied for DC. However, that may change and I haven't had any problems with dying yet as a drow. I chose the drow race and you are never going to change what I am doing for this build. Btw, I'm thinking of TR'ing one of my sorcs (I feel that having multiple of the same character is boring) into WF, just to try it out.

skills: Guess what, no more build points.

feats: Toughness FIRST? Really? Most of the rest looks like what I'm doing. Yep, I see that 12 is a good time to get heighten - raises DCs on my frost lance, etc and at that point I don't have many SR spells anyway. I will take your order of the last 3 feats, but I will do a cross between my list and yours for the first 4.

Postumus: Yay.

[Xiadais]

I think I now have my feats worked out.

Now all I need help with is spell choices for 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells (highlighted in red in my first post).

...Well, I also need to work spell pen into my enhancements but that's something I can do, it just takes a little bit of time, which I don't have exactly right now. Actually, re-doing my enhancements also means I will have to toss around the order of some feats. But anyway, I don't need help with that. Just spell choices. Unless someone wants to be really nice for some reason and rework my enhancements, in my format, keeping everything I think is important (which is everything except for the acid/elec stuff).

So all I need help with is deciding some spells.

[johnnyputrid]

I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but there is just so much incorrect information here.

Yes, absolutely need spell pen feats to use Firewall which is most useful spell more or less. Makes leveling up in undead heavy content a breeze. Also very useful for Epic content where no other spell will do the trick.

Wall of Fire does not have to defeat a monster's spell resistance check to deal damage. Like most damaging spells, there is no SR check involved.

Yes, you need some insta-death and CC spells, don't go without them. You can still be the nuker that you want to be while having these spells handy so that people in your party won't hate you.
Some quests, like let sleeping dust lie, cannot be completed unless you have a specific spell. Let Sleeping Dust Lie, has a 1 enemy and 5 hostiles that you aren't allowed to kill in each encounter. If you want to do this quest then you need finger of death to take out the single enemy so the others will no longer be hostile. No nuking spell can effectively single out this single enemy without hitting one of the others. If you choose to go the "pure nuker" path then you won't be able to do this quest unless you go with others who can and just buff them and sit back.
Crowd Control is the same, there are some crowd control spells that you simply have to have. Ottos irrestible dance and sphere of dancing are just much to useful not to take.

While having instakill and crowd-control spells are very handy, they are not mandatory. Yes, certain quests and monsters will be more difficult without them, but I can't think of a single quest where the lack of an instakill or CC spell will result in a quest failure.

And Let Sleeping Dust Lie does not in any way require a single instakill or CC spell to gain a completion. A competent group of melees (or even a single knowledgable melee) can use trip, stun or paralyzing weapons to complete the quest. A pure nuker can utilize tactics to maneuever mobs around and use single-target damaging spells to eliminate the required mobs without causing any collateral damage.

Few concerns:
Nuker: a nuker can never have enough SP to continuously cast no SR spells and keep up with DPS of melee types. The best DPS spell is firewall which has an SR check and so you will want those spell penetration feats or at least one of them. The problem is that it is easy to have good DPS as a sorc while still being able to use some very handy CC spells. I would suggest concentrating on a more balanced sorcerer approach which can focus on nuking if that is what you want to do but will still be able to have the versatility that you need to solo or play in a group.

Kiting, gathering and herding mobs into locations of your choosing and letting loose with direct damage or AoE-damaging spells works just fine in most situations. Managing your spell point pool is something that comes with practice and experience. Knowing where the shrines are in a quest helps you to determine how much and how often you can let loose with your spells. You can complete most quests with just damaging spells and still have spell points left over at the end of the quest. Quest knowledge and spell point management are the keys here.

Fire/cold: Don't limit yourself to just 2 energy types, there is enough enemies in the game that are immune to fire and cold to make this a bad idea. Invest a couple of points into acid/electricity and keep at least 1 acid and 1 lightning spell prepped for when it is useful. Oozes, blackbone skeletons etc, really benefit from having acid blast or chain lightning. Also, before level 8 when you get firewall its better to be specced as acid/lightning sorcerer to maximise DPS against oozes.

I like having a couple tiers in electric/acid damage enhancments myself, but they aren't required by any means. If you are taking acid/electric enhancments just to maximize your damage against oozes, you aren't fighting them with the proper tools. A simple Muckbane is all you need to take care of oozes. With the exception of gelatinous cubes and living spells, oozes are no threat to a caster with a few defensive buffs and a Muckbane.

Drow: drow is a bad choice imo for a sorcerer. To my understanding in the current state of the game human and drow can gain the same modifier on their charisma but the human is much better as has a lot of extra HP. Therefore, human for maximum DCs with good HP or WF are the best choices for sorcerer. As a nuking drow sorcerer you simply wouldn't have enough HP to survive the aggro you will get.

Drow make perfectly fine sorcerers. Yes they have a Constitution penalty, but that can be worked around with proper gear and tactics. Drow have just one less Racial Toughness enhancement than humans do, resulting in a loss of only 10 hit points from Toughness enhancements. 10 hit points will not make or break a sorcerer. There is no reason a drow cannot have a respectable Constitution score, a Minos Legens helmet, a Greater False Life item, as well as eating a Constitution tome and equipping a +6 Con item when available. Surviving aggro consists of more than simply having enough hit points to take a beating. Having a lot of hit points is nice to serve as a buffer, but clever tactics and smart play can make up for a slight loss in hit points. Blur, Displacement, Stoneskin, Resists, and other defensive buffs help keep casters alive and should always be active.

[Xiadais]

johnnyputrid: You are amazing. I agree, people are posting stupid stuff. Thank you for saying that. +1 rep for you . And sadly, I still haven't had time to work out my enhancements. Maybe later today.

EDIT: ...Maybe tomorrow?

[Aranticus]

And Let Sleeping Dust Lie does not in any way require a single instakill or CC spell to gain a completion. A competent group of melees (or even a single knowledgable melee) can use trip, stun or paralyzing weapons to complete the quest. A pure nuker can utilize tactics to maneuever mobs around and use single-target damaging spells to eliminate the required mobs without causing any collateral damage.

but its so much easier to just fod + pk!

Kiting, gathering and herding mobs into locations of your choosing and letting loose with direct damage or AoE-damaging spells works just fine in most situations. Managing your spell point pool is something that comes with practice and experience. Knowing where the shrines are in a quest helps you to determine how much and how often you can let loose with your spells. You can complete most quests with just damaging spells and still have spell points left over at the end of the quest. Quest knowledge and spell point management are the keys here.

this is where the new player will find difficulty in playing a caster. just few days back, i was playing with a "DPS" sorc. he wasnt doing anything in genesis (on normal) at all. he put firewall, and tried to polar ray orthons. but wasnt damaging any of them enough. he ran out of sp by the time we cleared 3 room. if he had energy drain and FoD or wail, he would have probably helped more

Drow make perfectly fine sorcerers. Yes they have a Constitution penalty, but that can be worked around with proper gear and tactics. Drow have just one less Racial Toughness enhancement than humans do, resulting in a loss of only 10 hit points from Toughness enhancements. 10 hit points will not make or break a sorcerer. There is no reason a drow cannot have a respectable Constitution score, a Minos Legens helmet, a Greater False Life item, as well as eating a Constitution tome and equipping a +6 Con item when available. Surviving aggro consists of more than simply having enough hit points to take a beating. Having a lot of hit points is nice to serve as a buffer, but clever tactics and smart play can make up for a slight loss in hit points. Blur, Displacement, Stoneskin, Resists, and other defensive buffs help keep casters alive and should always be active.

on an experienced player, we wouldnt have any problems overcoming the low hp. new players otoh will not have the resources nor the knowledge. playing a race with inherently more hp will be a fail safe

[johnnyputrid]

but its so much easier to just fod + pk!

Absolutely it is, and I'm not advocating any caster neglect his instakills or crowd control spells. To do so would simply be self-gimping. I was just trying to illustate the fact that those particular types of spells are not absolutely 100% required.

this is where the new player will find difficulty in playing a caster. just few days back, i was playing with a "DPS" sorc. he wasnt doing anything in genesis (on normal) at all. he put firewall, and tried to polar ray orthons. but wasnt damaging any of them enough. he ran out of sp by the time we cleared 3 room. if he had energy drain and FoD or wail, he would have probably helped more.

I agree, but a new player willing to learn, experiment with spells and practice his skills will eventually become an asset instead of a liability. Nobody rolls up caster, with no prior casting experience, and automatically becomes proficient in playing one. It takes time and effort to learn the tricks of the trade. If you aren't willing to put in the time and effort to learn those, tricks, you'll end up like the guy in your example. If he was willing to listen, someone should've offered some tips and advice - if he wasn't willing to listen, then let him blow his mana at every turn and add him to your ignore list.

on an experienced player, we wouldnt have any problems overcoming the low hp. new players otoh will not have the resources nor the knowledge. playing a race with inherently more hp will be a fail safe

And that is the crutch that can stick with a new player, believing that only certain races are able to perform at what others would consider 'acceptable' levels. If he believes that, he'll never want to take the chance on playing a different race that may suit his particular playstyle. The only way to gain knowledge is to play, listen and observe. It might take many failures to learn what you need to know, but in the end the results will be worthwhile. Eventually a player will figure out that having more hit points is beneficial, but I've still seen plenty of crappy players with a crapton of hit points that get their butts handed to them on a continuous basis. Failing to apply what you learn is probably the biggest problem a lot of newer casters have.

I don't recommend any character of any class have low hit points, but simply playing a drow (or elf) sorcerer does not mean you are forced to always be super-squishy and have no chance to survive high-level play, which is essentially what the poster I was responding to was implying. A drow sorcerer can easily afford to start with a 14 Con, which is good enough to get the job done. A good chunk of your hit points are going to come from items anyway, which are available to all races - everyone can wear a +6 Con item, a Greater False Life beft, a greensteel hit point item and a Minos Legens helmet.

[tinyelvis]

.........................


this is where the new player will find difficulty in playing a caster. just few days back, i was playing with a "DPS" sorc. he wasnt doing anything in genesis (on normal) at all. he put firewall, and tried to polar ray orthons. but wasnt damaging any of them enough. he ran out of sp by the time we cleared 3 room. if he had energy drain and FoD or wail, he would have probably helped more

..................

So instead of doing little damage, he probably would have done no damage, since passing at least two spell pen checks and then having a new caster land a fort save spell in Savarath would be a very tall order (and all that before someone killed his target(s)). Telling a new play to use fort save based spells in Savarath is a recipe for disaster. Even if he managed to get everything right to do your suggestion, without a 40 DC or higher, he would need at least to cast two 9th level spells to kill one foe. This is damned inefficient.

The problem is, he never learned how to actually DPS. Any 20th level sorc need gain only one item (the Tevli sash) to perform splendidly. Even without that, a superior V or better clicky would have enabled a good performance on cone of cold and ball lightning. If need be, he could easily dance any orthon to reduce save or cast a web.

DPS casting is easier than insta death in savarath by far (why do you suppose he was not using finger of death? My guess is he tried that approach). However, casters are all too often not learning how to put out damage at lower levels and rely on the rather low damage and DPS wall of fire. Soon the novices can use "Ice Storm", and do lame DPS and damage with it while putting on the illusion of actually doing something in Savarath too.

[Kepli_Moonshadow]

posting for reference

[richieelias27]

Extend does not do anything for your level 1-2 buffs other than waste your SP. For the cost of this skill, you are losing SP because it is about the same as the base cost-- I would get it after something like Empower or Maximize. You're not going to be bothered much with buffing as it is. It's worth having eventually, because you can extend Wall of Fire or any other spell with a short duration.

I'm not going to argue the wisdom of taking extend early or not. It's pretty much up to personal preference. However, I will say that extend is only SP inefficient if you would have come across a shrine before the spells duration without extend would have worn off. Otherwise, extend is break-even with level 1 spells, and an sp gain on 2 to 9.

I will also add that if you cast haste unextended you will be laughed at.

[richieelias27]

So instead of doing little damage, he probably would have done no damage, since passing at least two spell pen checks and then having a new caster land a fort save spell in Savarath would be a very tall order (and all that before someone killed his target(s)). ... snip ... see above for rest.

What tinyelvis said. Sounds like the sorc is spending far too much effort trying to do something he/she is not specced/geared for. Best bet is to stick to debuffing via waves of exhaustion or the like. At least then saves arent taken into the equation and its a good chance you'll bypass at least half of the groups SR and slow them down significantly, making things that much easier for the melee types.

[Aranticus]

So instead of doing little damage, he probably would have done no damage, since passing at least two spell pen checks and then having a new caster land a fort save spell in Savarath would be a very tall order (and all that before someone killed his target(s)). Telling a new play to use fort save based spells in Savarath is a recipe for disaster. Even if he managed to get everything right to do your suggestion, without a 40 DC or higher, he would need at least to cast two 9th level spells to kill one foe. This is damned inefficient.

The problem is, he never learned how to actually DPS. Any 20th level sorc need gain only one item (the Tevli sash) to perform splendidly. Even without that, a superior V or better clicky would have enabled a good performance on cone of cold and ball lightning. If need be, he could easily dance any orthon to reduce save or cast a web.

DPS casting is easier than insta death in savarath by far (why do you suppose he was not using finger of death? My guess is he tried that approach). However, casters are all too often not learning how to put out damage at lower levels and rely on the rather low damage and DPS wall of fire. Soon the novices can use "Ice Storm", and do lame DPS and damage with it while putting on the illusion of actually doing something in Savarath too.

20 base + 5 level + 3 enh + 6 item +2 tome = 36 cha = +13 mod

DC = 10 + 13 + 1 reaver + 9 spell = 33 DC

SR = 20 + 4 feat + 3 enh + 1d20 = 28 - 47

energy drain will land reliably for trash mobs in sharavath quest on normal and lower their saves sufficiently for them to fail the save. if you were there in the quest, you would have seen how useless that sorc was at dpsing

[Xiadais]

Now everyone's trashing my thread by making useless arguments... Oh well, I don't really mind. If only they would help me instead of arguing with others... (Yes, this is, in a subtle way, asking for more help =P)

And that is the crutch that can stick with a new player, believing that only certain races are able to perform at what others would consider 'acceptable' levels. If he believes that <-I don't, he'll never want to take the chance on playing a different race that may suit his particular playstyle. <-I don't want to take the chance on not playing drow =D The only way to gain knowledge is to play, listen and observe. It might take many failures to learn what you need to know, but in the end the results will be worthwhile. Eventually a player will figure out that having more hit points is beneficial, but I've still seen plenty of crappy players with a crapton of hit points that get their butts handed to them on a continuous basis. Failing to apply what you learn is probably the biggest problem a lot of newer casters have.

I'm not going to argue the wisdom of taking extend early or not. It's pretty much up to personal preference. However, I will say that extend is only SP inefficient if you would have come across a shrine before the spells duration without extend would have worn off. <-So far, my extended buffs haven't ever really lasted too long and wasted SP Otherwise, extend is break-even with level 1 spells, and an sp gain on 2 to 9. <-Yep.

I will also add that if you cast haste unextended you will be laughed at. <-What, unextended and haste in the same sentence? Blasphemy!

Well I cranked out my enhancements:

The Old:

 
*Condensed Enhancements*
Sorcerer Bloodline of Power
Sorcerer Charisma III
Drow Racial Toughness II
Sorcerer Wand and Scroll Mastery IV
Sorcerer Improved Maximizing II
Sorcerer Improved Empowering II
Sorcerer Improved Heightening I
Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded IV
Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation IV
Sorcerer Lineage of Elements III
Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Elements III
Sorcerer Energy Manipulation II
Sorcerer Lineage of Energy I
Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Energy I

And The New:

 
*Condensed Enhancements*
Sorcerer Bloodline of Power
Sorcerer Charisma II
Drow Racial Toughness II
Sorcerer Improved Spell Penetration III
Sorcerer Wand and Scroll Mastery III
Sorcerer Improved Maximizing II
Sorcerer Improved Empowering II
Sorcerer Improved Heightening I
Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded IV
Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation IV
Sorcerer Lineage of Elements III
Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Elements III
Sorcerer Energy Manipulation I
Sorcerer Lineage of Energy I
Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Energy I

I removed the third tier of charisma enhancements, removed the second tier of energy manipulation, removed the fourth tier of wand and scroll mastery, and added Sorcerer Improved Spell Penetration I-III.

[Aranticus]

And The New:

 
*Condensed Enhancements*
Sorcerer Bloodline of Power
Sorcerer Charisma II
Drow Racial Toughness II
Sorcerer Improved Spell Penetration III
Sorcerer Wand and Scroll Mastery III remove this entirely, not too useful since your only real application will be on heal scrolls/wands
Sorcerer Improved Maximizing II
Sorcerer Improved Empowering II
Sorcerer Improved Heightening I i generally do not use the meta enhancements as their benefit is small compared to the dps you can increase with the damage lines
Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded IV on a sorc, sp enh pales, you can take this off if you are tight on AP
Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation IV
Sorcerer Lineage of Elements III
Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Elements III
Sorcerer Energy Manipulation I
Sorcerer Lineage of Energy I
Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Energy I you will need more damage lines, just relying on fire/ice alone may give u some disadvantages. with the acid/elect lines, you can throw out some impressive acid fogs and chain lightnings

see red

[Xiadais]

Don't I need to power up my heal scrolls and wands? Or does it not make much of a difference? I can remove it, but I don't exactly have anything I would put in instead of it.

Comment on heightening enhancers: Hmm... I suppose it isn't too useful...

On the SP enhancer comment: I don't want "a lot of SP" or "more SP than a wizard". I want "tons of SP" so I have my full potential as a fire/cold nuker. And right now, I don't think I'm short on AP.

last comment: I am fully aware that a lot of things are immune to fire and/or cold. That is when I use other things. For the times where I can't use fire or cold I still have some acid/elec, but I really don't think it's worth it to waste AP on something I won't use much.


I currently need help with my spell choices. I have pretty much everything else sorted out. Thanks for all the help I've gotten so far.

[Azcarim]

Throw your drow in the trash can.
Make your sorc a WF.
HAH!

[Xiadais]

Throw your drow in the trash can.
Make your sorc a WF.
HAH!

Troll...?

[Xiadais]

Well then, I haven't really had time to look at my thread, but now I'm back. I would still like some help with spell selections. If anyone could be constructive by helping me with my spells (see first post) and by NOT telling me to be WF or to go for more enchantment or trying to inform me that "nukerz suck u shudint play them" that would be wonderful. I would forever be in your debt. (Not really, but it sounds nice =D)

[Nephilia]

I changed some things in my first post, such as editing the spell list, adding a condensed enhancement list, and tweaking a few other things. I still want help with my feat choices, spell list, and enhancements, though.

Can u post your enhancement as they are at moment? ^^