Fixing Poison

[CrescentCalling_5]

Since two of my three suggestions got a huge number of posts (and one of them started the next crusades...) I decided to tackle a less controversial but more interesting issue

Poisons, right now you probably know them as one of three things:

1. Something monsters and traps tend to hit you with for fun
2. Something your summoned monsters or spells sometimes beat up others with
3. Something Rogue Assassin I holders like to use to pretend they didn't waste AP on an enhancement

So right now, they're probably annoying or boring to you. You can't use them without a spell, and the poisons available to you as an Assassin are all but weak. Poisons could be so much more! As usual, I have an idea

Idea put in simple: Get back to the roots.

And now for the elaboration

Part 1: Make Poisons into a set of Items

Poisons shouldn't just be some spell or ability, they should be a buyable, useable, and interesting item. Perhaps even make a pouch to keep poisons in like collectibles and hireling contracts. Here's how the poison's use should work:

1. Player activates the poison from inventory or quickbar.
2. Player makes a Reflex Save against the Poison's Coating DC or fails to coat their weapon and suffers the poison's effects*
3. If Successful, the Player's weapon is coated with poison.
4. When a player successfully hits a target with a coated melee weapon, the weapon's coating lasts for 20 seconds and then wears off**. Coated ranged and thrown weapons can only be used once before the poison wears off (you're basically tossing the poison at the target, if it misses you don't get another shot).
5. Player attacks their target with either melee or ranged weapon, on a successful hit the target makes a Fortitude Save against the Poison's DC or is inflicted with that poison***.

*On a failed reflex save the player only suffers the poison's initial effects, not secondary damage.
**When poison is used on a melee weapon the player recieves multiple chances to inflict it on the target but after a successful infliction or the time limit is reached the player must recoat their weapon. Editted as of 8/31/10
***Bosses and SubBosses retain a resistence to poison but no longer recieve immunity.Editted 8/31/10


Now I guess it's time to explain the poison item in general, not just its use. Poisons have two word names, but both parts are important. The first name signifies the Difficulty Class of the poison. The second name signifies the Ability that the poison damages.

First Name/Difficulty Class:

Least = 1d2 ability damage*, Coating DC 12, Poison DC 15**
Lesser = 1d3 ability damage, Coating DC 14, Poison DC 18
Average = 2d2 ability damage, Coating DC = 16, Poison DC = 21
Greater = 2d3 ability damage, Coating DC = 18, Poison DC = 25
Deadly = 2d4 ability damage, Coating DC = 20, Poison DC = 28
Lethal = 2d6 ability damage, Coating DC = 24, Poison DC = 32

*This is initial ability damage btw, Poisons inflict initial and secondary damage, so the target can suffer a large penalty if they aren't careful (lethal poison can inflict 12 points of ability damage twice! Totalling 24 points, see how tough that Drow Scorpion is if he fails "that" save.)
**Rangers recieve a +2 bonus to saves against Poison DC if one of their Favored Enemies is Vermin
***Rangers recieve a +2 bonus to Coating when coating a Bow with poison

Note: Poisons that you coat onto a weapon are able to pierce poison immunity with a 33% chance. This does not include poison immunity brought on by fortification or racial immunities (such as undead and constructs) but does pierce magical immunities from spells or items.

Second Name/Ability Damage:

Spider Poison* = Strength Damage
Scorpion Venom = Constitution Damage
Bee Poison = Dexterity Damage

*When using a poison on the same creature it is drawn from (ie. Spider poison on a spider) the target recieves a +6 racial bonus to the Fortitude Save against the Poison DC. The target also recieves a +1 circumstance bonus to Spot, Search, and a +2 bonus to Dodge AC against you while your weapon is coated due to the familiar scent the poison gives off.
**If a Ranger takes the Vermin Favored Enemy feat, they receive a +2 circumstantial bonus to coating their weapon (this stacks with the bonus to coating a bow) with poison.

(Regular Poisons cannot affect personality traits such as intelligence, charisma, and wisdom. Magical Poisons listed below affect those traits. Rangers recieve no bonuses regarding these poisons because they are derived from supernatural sources, not nature.)

Hag Poison = Charisma Damage
Naga Poison = Wisdom Damage
Quasit Venom = Intelligence Damage

Naturally these magical poisons cost more than their counterparts due to the...difficulty of gathering them. editted as of 9/1/10

An example of a poison item then:

Average Spider Poison-
Coating DC: 16
Poison DC: 21
Requires Caster Level 10
Effect:
On a successful hit the target must make a Fortitude Save against poison or be inflicted with Average Spider Poison (2d2 Strength Damage).
*Single Use

Special Poisons* Implemented into this suggestion at 8/31/10

*Rangers do not recieve any special benefit related to these poisons

Some poisons do not inflict ability damage. Instead these specialized poisons inflict other negative effects (but obviously cost more). Below I listed the special poison suggestions.

Difficulty Class Name:

Least = 20 second effect, Coating DC 12, Poison DC 15
Lesser = 40 second effect, Coating DC 14, Poison DC 18
Average = 60 second effect, Coating DC = 16, Poison DC = 21
Greater = 80 second effect, Coating DC = 18, Poison DC = 25
Deadly = 90 second effect, Coating DC = 20, Poison DC = 28
Lethal = 120 second effect, Coating DC = 24, Poison DC = 32

Infliction Name:

Poison of Silencing = target suffers 50% vocal based arcane spell failure (stacks with somatic based)
Poison of Crippling = target has 50% reduced movement speed
Poison of Atrophy = target suffers 50% reduced attack speed and casts somatic spells 10% slower
Poison of Weakness = target suffers -2 penalty to all damage resistence*
Poison of Age = target suffers -2 penalty to all saving throws (stacking to all other penalties)

*If no damage resistence exists, the target suffers additional penalties when taking damage as if they had negative resistences

An example of one of these poisons:

Deadly Poison of Atrophy-
Coating DC: 20
Poison DC: 28
Requires Caster Level 12*
Effect:
On a successful hit the target must make a Fortitude Save against poison or be inflicted with Deadly Atrophy Poison (90 seconds of reduced attack and casting speed).

*Implemented to make sure a level 6 Rogue can't run around hitting enemies with lethal poisons. Helps to balance the new item into the game.


Part Two: Assassin Enhancement Changes

So now we've got poisons as an item, and my main happens to be a level 8 Rogue/Assassin I, right now (I love playing rogue ;3 which may be why it beat my wizzy :x) so am I or the rest of the Assassins out there going to be happy with our crappy poisons now that we're seeing these awesome new ones pop out? Should be obvious :P

So next up, a revamp of the rogue Assassin enhancements. Here's my remade version of Rogue Assasin I:

Rogue Assassin I
Usage: Passive
AP Cost: 2
Requires: *same prerequisites*
Description:
You gain a +1d6 bonus to Sneak Attack Damage, a +2 bonus to Bluff, Hide, and Move Silently Checks, and recieve a +1 circumstance bonus to Fortitude Saves against poison. All poisons you coat your weapons with receive a +2 bonus to the Poison DC*.

*This bonus stacks in Rogue Assassin I/II/III making the Fortitude DC of all poisons at Rogue Assassin III, 6 points higher than normal (might not help much against a paladin but against most enemies, even bosses, it's a pretty good bonus).

Includes the following ability:

Assassin Poison Study
Usage: Passive
AP Cost: 0
Description:
When coating a weapon with poison, you automatically succeed in the reflex saving throw against the Coating DC. (you automatically succeed when coating weapons with poison)


Now let's add a little something to Rogue Assassin III to embellish on this concept:

Assassin Poison Mastery
Usage: Passive
AP Cost: 0
Requires: Rogue Assassin III (comes with it)
Description:
Whenever a target successfully saves against your poisoned weapon, they are forced to make a second saving throw or be inflicted (Your poisoned weapons have two chances to inflict per successful hit instead of one). Additionally if you successfully sneak attack a target with a coated weapon, the poison's DC increases by a further 4 (Poisons applied through sneak attacks become nearly impossible to resist).


I think I did pretty well here at least I won't start another holy war.

Comments? Critiques? Thoughts? I've been wondering about this ever since I hit level 6 xD

[CrescentCalling_5]

30 views and not even a critique? :/

[Ybbald]

Too much work. Minimal benefit. The Assassin I poisons are broken and do not work. However it is still not a waste due to +1d6 SA, and +2 to hide and MS.

And 6 seconds? Far too short to be worth it. A reflex save to coat your weapon? Who can't stick a knife in a jar of poison without getting on themselves? It's not that hard. Plus poison immunity items make that almost useless. Most trash will die to fast for poison to be worth it and those that it would help against are bosses who are immune/highly resistant. Do you ever see a wizard using the poison spell? No, cause it's not worth it.

[Cylinwolf]

This is my favorite thread on fixing assassin poisons.

As far as my critique of your specific suggestions, the only thing that bugs me is the "you have six seconds to apply this effect" once you hit the boost to use it.

What I would prefer (though not necessarily the easiest suggestion) if that system was used is you coat the weapon with poison in preparation and it sits there. Then, when you make an attack roll at a target, ie not from swinging in the air, THEN a six second timer starts for your chances to apply the poison.

[Ybbald]

the easiest way to do this is add a guild crystal that applies poison on crits just like they have ones that add cold touch or 1d2 fire or 1d4 acid

[CrescentCalling_5]

the easiest way to do this is add a guild crystal that applies poison on crits just like they have ones that add cold touch or 1d2 fire or 1d4 acid

I like this idea, and the other idea. I'll take a look at my suggestion and rework it please tell me what you think of it after I've editted it up a bit

Also, the reflex save is taken out of PnP, it's mean to symbolize the fact that poison is "never" coated just by sticking your weapon in a vial of it. It requires finesse to coat the blade in such a way that the poison will actually enter the target's bloodstream instead of just sticking to the flat of the weapon and do nothing. If the poison gets onto the player it has a chance of seeping through the skin and infecting the player with it's initial effects. *explanation provided by my old DM btw ;p