Question on Known Issue/Bug Reporting

[Khurse]

Tolero posted this is the "Our Known Issue " thread

I appreciate the effort! Couple of notes for everyone's sanity:
1. If you're reporting bugs, make sure you've done so in the bug reporting tool (which can be accessed outside the game) also. The forums are not a bug reporting tool, and posting them only to the forums can actually delay a fix.
2. Our "known issues list" is not intended as a list of every bug we know about. It is a list of bugs we don't need more reports about. We very often don't put things on the list because we WANT you to keep filing bug reports on them if we're looking for more information or a sense of the impact of the bug.

Just curious,I completely understand why you'd ask that for some bugs, but for others,such as TOD Sulo's chest not spawning on hard or elite, (unless this has been fixed and is just an Amrath rumour). Are groups really supposed to keep spending the time and resources to kill Sulo, not get a chest, and continuously file bug reports until someone figures out why the chest doesn't pop on hard although it does on normal?

Completely admit I know nothing about programming, it just seems that some of the "known issues" that aren't on the known issue list, would be fairly simple fixes that shouldn't really need to be constantly bug reported.

[Folonius]

Are groups really supposed to keep spending the time and resources to kill Sulo, not get a chest, and continuously file bug reports until someone figures out why the chest doesn't pop on hard although it does on normal?

That would seem to be the suggested action.

Completely admit I know nothing about programming, it just seems that some of the "known issues" that aren't on the known issue list, would be fairly simple fixes that shouldn't really need to be constantly bug reported.

Unless I have seen the code, I always assume it's not an easy fix. I haven't done much game programming, but what I have done, it can get confusing as to what parts of the code can effect other parts.

The chest not spawning could be a relational problem to the level of difficulty that is related to the people who are able to open it on hard/elite to the character classes of those people who can open it on hard/elite which is related to a strength score over 6. So if anyone in the part has a str over 6, the chest won't spawn. That's just an example of what could be wrong, but how hard would that be to figure out?

Bugs are relational, and a small error in the code somewhere could trickle down to create a larger bug elsewhere.

[Hendrik]

Tolero posted this is the "Our Known Issue " thread



Just curious,I completely understand why you'd ask that for some bugs, but for others,such as TOD Sulo's chest not spawning on hard or elite, (unless this has been fixed and is just an Amrath rumour). Are groups really supposed to keep spending the time and resources to kill Sulo, not get a chest, and continuously file bug reports until someone figures out why the chest doesn't pop on hard although it does on normal?

Completely admit I know nothing about programming, it just seems that some of the "known issues" that aren't on the known issue list, would be fairly simple fixes that shouldn't really need to be constantly bug reported.

What one person with no coding experience thinks is a 'simple fix' the DEV's know that there are no 'simple fixes'.

Each time a player states something is a 'simple fix' Keeper and Mertolaskero team up and throw dead kittens at +404 and Eladrin.

Please, think of the kittens....

[Tolero]

Just curious,I completely understand why you'd ask that for some bugs, but for others,such as TOD Sulo's chest not spawning on hard or elite, (unless this has been fixed and is just an Amrath rumour). Are groups really supposed to keep spending the time and resources to kill Sulo, not get a chest, and continuously file bug reports until someone figures out why the chest doesn't pop on hard although it does on normal?

Completely admit I know nothing about programming, it just seems that some of the "known issues" that aren't on the known issue list, would be fairly simple fixes that shouldn't really need to be constantly bug reported.

It's very situational.

Take "ladders" for example. We actually had to add a KI to tell people to KEEP reporting them because to a player, this "seems" like a "simple" fix... it's just a ladder right? Little did they know it is something that Keeper has to go to the particular ladder and then hand remove/replant it. They're standing in the Market filing a bug report about a ladder they found two quests ago before they log out for the night. Half the time they didn't even get the quest name right because it was in part 3 of a 4 part quest chain. How does Keeper know where the ladder was?

In other cases, if there is something broken and people deflect to just not playing it rather than telling us about it, then it's likely that issue can end up lower in the hopper because other issues/reports are getting more traffic. When an issue is evenly pitted against another issue, how hard the issue is being "felt" can be a part of whether or not it's on the KI list.

Other times well... we're getting reports, but the reports we get are... lacking in detail. "FIX MOB!" Ok... what about the mob is wrong? There are maaany ways something can be broken, and what seems obvious to you isn't necessarily to the one reading your bug report with no context. You'd be surprised by the number of bug reports we get that lack details because the player assumes the way it is broken makes sense to be described as "FIX MOB" or "QUEST WONT WORK" or "BAD MONSTER."

Every situation is different. Unless you see something saying not to, it's a good idea to file a bug report. (That isn't a license to spam the reporting tool. Only send a second one on the same issue if you found more details than you had the first time that could be enlightening).

[theb]

Other times well... we're getting reports, but the reports we get are... lacking in detail. "FIX MOB!" Ok... what about the mob is wrong?

The most likely explanation is that the mob was powerful enough kill them, something that hadn't happened for several levels, and after taking their monitor to the shop for having lost its ability to display anything buy black and grey, they filed a bug report. The obvious solution is to sell potions of protection from death in the DDO store, and nerf every mob in that quest just to be safe.

[smatt]

It's very situational.

Take "ladders" for example. We actually had to add a KI to tell people to KEEP reporting them because to a player, this "seems" like a "simple" fix... it's just a ladder right? Little did they know it is something that Keeper has to go to the particular ladder and then hand remove/replant it. They're standing in the Market filing a bug report about a ladder they found two quests ago before they log out for the night. Half the time they didn't even get the quest name right because it was in part 3 of a 4 part quest chain. How does Keeper know where the ladder was?

In other cases, if there is something broken and people deflect to just not playing it rather than telling us about it, then it's likely that issue can end up lower in the hopper because other issues/reports are getting more traffic. When an issue is evenly pitted against another issue, how hard the issue is being "felt" can be a part of whether or not it's on the KI list.

Other times well... we're getting reports, but the reports we get are... lacking in detail. "FIX MOB!" Ok... what about the mob is wrong? There are maaany ways something can be broken, and what seems obvious to you isn't necessarily to the one reading your bug report with no context. You'd be surprised by the number of bug reports we get that lack details because the player assumes the way it is broken makes sense to be described as "FIX MOB" or "QUEST WONT WORK" or "BAD MONSTER."

Every situation is different. Unless you see something saying not to, it's a good idea to file a bug report. (That isn't a license to spam the reporting tool. Only send a second one on the same issue if you found more details than you had the first time that could be enlightening).

Here's the problem Tolero.... The p[layers that do or DID do a lto of bug reporting got frustrated and gave up... Because it seemed that they were ignored for oh a couple years... How about a 2nd list on the known issues, one that say yes we've heard abou tthis bug, but we need more information on it.. PLEASE if you encounter this bug, file a bug report and give us as many details as you can. There are a lto fo players otu there willing to do such a thing IF they know that the information will be put to use... That hasn't been the case in the past on many counts...


That way players know that they aren't filing reports that are going to where they used to go.. You know the trash can

[DagazUlf]

It's very situational.

Take "ladders" for example.

And yet, almost every ladder in the game is still borked and mandates that you must jump on it to climb.... go figure.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Here's the problem Tolero.... The p[layers that do or DID do a lto of bug reporting got frustrated and gave up... Because it seemed that they were ignored for oh a couple years... How about a 2nd list on the known issues, one that say yes we've heard abou tthis bug, but we need more information on it.. PLEASE if you encounter this bug, file a bug report and give us as many details as you can. There are a lto fo players otu there willing to do such a thing IF they know that the information will be put to use... That hasn't been the case in the past on many counts...


That way players know that they aren't filing reports that are going to where they used to go.. You know the trash can

That's the problem really. That "known issues list" is a joke. There was one software company I was involved with for a long time that used to have a similar problem, then after a number of us nagged them long enough, they gave us all access to the real known issues list and made it searchable.

The list was too long to print. But if we had a reference number for any ticket we put in, we could find that item. We could search for problems we had, find out if they were on the list, and add our info/names to them (so that they wouldn't think the problem was isolated when it wasn't). We could see the status of the item which went along the lines of: Fix not recommended (reason was given), fix recommended but not yet scheduled, fix planned for release XXXX, QA investigating, included in update XXXX etc. That last one was important because every so often they thought they fixed something...but it wasn't fixed. Each item was also given a priority from 1-5 (1 being "this is shutting down entire cities' systems, fix it yesterday!" and 5 being "annoying typo, get around to it when you get a chance...probably never unless you are fixing something else in that interface anyway")

The nice thing was that this let people see what was being fixed and why, how much was being worked on (which explained why some of your stuff had to wait), and let you know that they were taking your feedback seriously. It was a fantatic tool.

[smatt]

That's the problem really. That "known issues list" is a joke. There was one software company I was involved with for a long time that used to have a similar problem, then after a number of us nagged them long enough, they gave us all access to the real known issues list and made it searchable.

The list was too long to print. But if we had a reference number for any ticket we put in, we could find that item. We could search for problems we had, find out if they were on the list, and add our info/names to them (so that they wouldn't think the problem was isolated when it wasn't). We could see the status of the item which went along the lines of: Fix not recommended (reason was given), fix recommended but not yet scheduled, fix planned for release XXXX, QA investigating, included in update XXXX etc. That last one was important because every so often they thought they fixed something...but it wasn't fixed. Each item was also given a priority from 1-5 (1 being "this is shutting down entire cities' systems, fix it yesterday!" and 5 being "annoying typo, get around to it when you get a chance...probably never unless you are fixing something else in that interface anyway")

The nice thing was that this let people see what was being fixed and why, how much was being worked on (which explained why some of your stuff had to wait), and let you know that they were taking your feedback seriously. It was a fantatic tool.

Exactly... I think a lto fo peopel would be willign to give input and more details about specific bugs IF they thought it ws goign somewhere besides the trash can. Which has for the msot part been what most longtime players, thought and rightfully so considering the complete and total lack of communication from Turbine on the issue. There's nothing like seeing a post from a Dev saying "Oh I will look into that, we've never heard about it before". And then having many players roll their eyes and say, I/We have been reporting that for a year.

[Montrose]

That's the problem really. That "known issues list" is a joke. There was one software company I was involved with for a long time that used to have a similar problem, then after a number of us nagged them long enough, they gave us all access to the real known issues list and made it searchable.

The list was too long to print. But if we had a reference number for any ticket we put in, we could find that item. We could search for problems we had, find out if they were on the list, and add our info/names to them (so that they wouldn't think the problem was isolated when it wasn't). We could see the status of the item which went along the lines of: Fix not recommended (reason was given), fix recommended but not yet scheduled, fix planned for release XXXX, QA investigating, included in update XXXX etc. That last one was important because every so often they thought they fixed something...but it wasn't fixed. Each item was also given a priority from 1-5 (1 being "this is shutting down entire cities' systems, fix it yesterday!" and 5 being "annoying typo, get around to it when you get a chance...probably never unless you are fixing something else in that interface anyway")

The nice thing was that this let people see what was being fixed and why, how much was being worked on (which explained why some of your stuff had to wait), and let you know that they were taking your feedback seriously. It was a fantatic tool.

It would be nice to be able to query the bug database and have a numinstances++ functionality. I'd get behind this.

I am curious, however, as to how that affected people exploiting the game, if at all. It seems like it would be fairly easy to look at historical bugs and bug trends to predict new exploits.

[Angelus_dead]

Other times well... we're getting reports, but the reports we get are... lacking in detail.

Don't expect to get quality bug reports unless you provide players with some indication that the things actually get read. That means listing both known bugs and NBBLB (non-bug bug-like behavior, such as Phantasmal Killer eating corpses).

It is unrealistic to expect players to put in the substantial effort to fully document a bug when Turbine provide practically zero information as to what bugs are already known about.

Also, since you have mentioned that the "Known Issues" list does not actually list the known issues, I suggest you either expand the list to cover known issues, or rename it to indicate the alternate purpose (such as "Subjects Not To Bug Report").

[Angelus_dead]

I am curious, however, as to how that affected people exploiting the game, if at all. It seems like it would be fairly easy to look at historical bugs and bug trends to predict new exploits.

It goes without saying that serious exploits would be excluded from the publicly-viewable bug list. A typical developer (at least of entertainment software) doesn't want to put the real database online; they instead should task a staffer with 8 hours a month to update the published bug list from that database (preferablly someone who's monitoring the forums anyway so she knows what bugs are actually aggravating players)

[Khurse]

It's very situational.

Take "ladders" for example. We actually had to add a KI to tell people to KEEP reporting them because to a player, this "seems" like a "simple" fix... it's just a ladder right? Little did they know it is something that Keeper has to go to the particular ladder and then hand remove/replant it. They're standing in the Market filing a bug report about a ladder they found two quests ago before they log out for the night. Half the time they didn't even get the quest name right because it was in part 3 of a 4 part quest chain. How does Keeper know where the ladder was?

In other cases, if there is something broken and people deflect to just not playing it rather than telling us about it, then it's likely that issue can end up lower in the hopper because other issues/reports are getting more traffic. When an issue is evenly pitted against another issue, how hard the issue is being "felt" can be a part of whether or not it's on the KI list.

Other times well... we're getting reports, but the reports we get are... lacking in detail. "FIX MOB!" Ok... what about the mob is wrong? There are maaany ways something can be broken, and what seems obvious to you isn't necessarily to the one reading your bug report with no context. You'd be surprised by the number of bug reports we get that lack details because the player assumes the way it is broken makes sense to be described as "FIX MOB" or "QUEST WONT WORK" or "BAD MONSTER."

Every situation is different. Unless you see something saying not to, it's a good idea to file a bug report. (That isn't a license to spam the reporting tool. Only send a second one on the same issue if you found more details than you had the first time that could be enlightening).

Thanks for the quick answer Tolero!

However,(as previous posters suggested) is there any chance of getting a more comprehensive "known issues" list?
Going back to the Sulo chest (yeah, kinda obsessed) it drops on normal, not on hard or elite.
With players I've talked to no one knows if

A) This is WAI, there is some extra step you are supposed to do to get the chest to spawn.
B) This is a bug, seems odd it has been known for a while, but is not on the KI list.
C) If this was a bug that was fixed.

It's not a really difficult raid, but it's hard enough that it can be kinda tough to try and convince people to take the extra time/resources to kill Sulo when there might not be a chest, and we don't really know what info your team is looking for other than 12 Bug Reports saying " killed Sulo on hard/elite,chest still not dropping"

[Lorien_the_First_One]

It goes without saying that serious exploits would be excluded from the publicly-viewable bug list. A typical developer (at least of entertainment software) doesn't want to put the real database online; they instead should task a staffer with 8 hours a month to update the published bug list from that database (preferablly someone who's monitoring the forums anyway so she knows what bugs are actually aggravating players)

I agree. In my type of example they would just need a "don't publish" flag if something was sensitive in that way.

[Tolero]

And yet, almost every ladder in the game is still borked and mandates that you must jump on it to climb.... go figure.

Incorrect. I was climbing all over ladders this weekend with no issue. The only funky ladder I found is one in the public space in House D. And... like a bad person... I didn't /loc it and will now have to go back and find it and /loc it for Keeper >>

[Tolero]

Exactly... I think a lto fo peopel would be willign to give input and more details about specific bugs IF they thought it ws goign somewhere besides the trash can.

Bugs don't go to the trash can. They have to be read. By a person. Every time. Even the really vague ones where the entire report is "titan bug". -_-;

[Samadhi]

Incorrect. I was climbing all over ladders this weekend with no issue. The only funky ladder I found is one in the public space in House D. And... like a bad person... I didn't /loc it and will now have to go back and find it and /loc it for Keeper >>

VoN5 - nearly every ladder in the climb in the north corridor (post-crystal key) are... questionable

[AyumiAmakusa]

Bugs don't go to the trash can. They have to be read. By a person. Every time. Even the really vague ones where the entire report is "titan bug". -_-;

You mean the Gloves of the Warforged Titan bug where it lists as giving a +8 Psionic bonus to Str when it actually gives +6 Psionic bonus to Str just like how Mysterious Bauble and Ring of Spell Storing are not listing the actual effects? Interesting how these bugs seem to require 'player feedback' when all that's required is a description change. How hard can this be? After all, the Dice Notation was changed *just like that*.

[Folonius]

Bugs don't go to the trash can. They have to be read. By a person. Every time. Even the really vague ones where the entire report is "titan bug". -_-;

Kinda reminds me of working a help desk when you are trying to fix someones laptop.

Help Person: Ok, minimize everything to go to your desktop.
Confused Person: Ok hang on
(3 minutes pass)
Help Person: Did you minimize everything?
Confused Person: Yeah, but I'm still waiting for my desktop to finish booting up.

True Story.

[AyumiAmakusa]

Kinda reminds me of working a help desk when you are trying to fix someones laptop.

Help Person: Ok, minimize everything to go to your desktop.
Confused Person: Ok hang on
(3 minutes pass)
Help Person: Did you minimize everything?
Confused Person: Yeah, but I'm still waiting for my desktop to finish booting up.

True Story.

Hahaha. I know what you mean. Sometimes you get people calling asking how to change settings on their laptop and they just don't understand what you're trying to tell them to do. You tell them to open the control panel and they go 'What's a control panel?'