Omg Thank You Thank You Thank You!!!!

[PopeJual]

Think of it this way, if you could identify all runes in chest, would you EVER really get an undesired sovereign rune?? Maybe just maybe to crunch down ... But I'd rather run quick Monastery or Prey runs to get those identified in chest runes ...

People already do that, though. 3 runs through Prey takes less time and fewer resources than a single run through SoS.

[Trillea]

People already do that, though. 3 runs through Prey takes less time and fewer resources than a single run through SoS.

SoS is more fun though!

[Kaldaka]

People already do that, though. 3 runs through Prey takes less time and fewer resources than a single run through SoS.

But my point is, I don't think they are identified in chests based upon the wording of Mad's paragraph ...

[Marten]

But my point is, I don't think they are identified in chests based upon the wording of Mad's paragraph ...

Oh, and the runes are now identified.

He isn't saying that only the runes that come back from the break down are named, he is saying the (all) runes are named. Just from a programming perspective you wouldn't want to have two classes of the same rune, "named" and "un-named."


What does this mean? Several things....

1) Runes can now be seen for what they are and traded in chests. Run SoS and you can trade your uber healer rune to the Cleric for that uber tank rune he pulled, that you know Turbine is doing purposely, with each other KNOWING what you are getting.

2) So, you run Prey 3 times and take your Tempest Runes and make a Sovereign... since it is named you know if you want to keep it and if you don't want it you put one of you Draconic Runes (that is the rune that 2-5 drop per chest) with your Soverein to get 3 random Tempest Runes*. You can then remake a new Sovereign with those (or keep those that are really nice). No more 3 runs of Prey and hope you get what you are looking for and then another 3 runs for another chance. If you are like me, I have 160+ Draconic Runes banked. That is 160 chances to get the Sovereign I am looking for.

However, when I read it more closely, you may be getting back a random number of runes AS WELL AS random rune types. This could mean that you get 1 to 5 runes back that could be any combination of Draconic through Tempest... may be even get a single Soverein back? Now think about this a bit. To paraphrase The Boss - Its the new lottery, same as the old lottery.

3) If you already have a decent rune active on your armor, but want a better one, you don't have to worry about losing your "decent" trait to the DT lottery. You can just wait until you get the rune you want and grind up the other runes to make the next level up. (as was stated in another post)

4) If all runes show names now, if you buy a rune off the vendor in place of 15 blanks to pick from you can pick the named one that you are looking for.

Marten

[Kaldaka]

... Just from a programming perspective you wouldn't want to have two classes of the same rune, "named" and "un-named." ...

Now that makes sense to me.

4) If all runes show names now, if you buy a rune off the vendor in place of 15 blanks to pick from you can pick the named one that you are looking for.

This only works for Eldritch, so I guess I can look forward to getting exactly what i want there every time first time with 50 draconic ...

However, when I read it more closely, you may be getting back a random number of runes AS WELL AS random rune types. This could mean that you get 1 to 5 runes back that could be any combination of Draconic through Tempest... may be even get a single Soverein back? Now think about this a bit. To paraphrase The Boss - Its the new lottery, same as the old lottery.

Regarding the Sovereign rune uncrunching, it makes sense that it would give random runes, because if it gave 3 tempest you could totally cheat that system by recrunching the three into a sovereign and uncrunching if its not what you want over and over again until you got what you want. The fact that it is a random number of eldritch and tempest once uncrunched makes sense, it would certainly always result in less than three whole tempest.

[Kaldaka]

After thinking it over a bit more, I'm still not convinced.


Hear me out...

Assuming runes are identified in chest/turn in for draconic, then you are pretty much guaranteed to get what you want on those two tiers with only a bit of luck and grinding (its just been made much easier than it was). So if you have what you want on those two tiers, why would you ever want to uncrunch a sovereign? Because you made one you don't like from three tempests? Ok so they won't go to complete waste then? So that maybe they can be turned into 1 or 2 more tempests for the next crunching?? Honestly that doesn't really sound like as big of a deal as it sounds in Mad's blog.

They could have just had them be identified in chest and not had the uncrunching effect, saved themselves a whole heck of a lot of programming time and effort. In other words, I think the uncrunching is kind of a wasted effort on the dev's part if the runes are identified in chest.

[quickbunnie]

He isn't saying that only the runes that come back from the break down are named, he is saying the (all) runes are named.

It can go either way.

Any Sovereign Rune can be placed in the Altar with one Draconic Rune to activate this recipe. The Sovereign Rune will be destroyed, and "Runes" of some sort will be returned, but the recipe is unpredictable.

Oh, and the *runes* are "now" identified.

The *runes* may refer to all DT runes, OR the "Runes" mentioned in the previous sentence.

"now" may mean post-Update7 (if all runes are ID'ed), OR post-(un)crunching, again, in reference to the previous sentence.

I think (and hope) that the Dev meant all DT runes - but as Kaldeka has explained, there may be functional reasons not to.

I don't program, but I'm not thinking of the runes as having a "named" or "unnamed" property - rather, a new set of runes will be created that will drop only from the altar. The (un)crunching mechanism is new, so I feel its plausible they coded a new set of items. They'll have identical properties to the current runes, but instead of being named generic "Tempest Rune"/"Eldritch Rune", they will actually describe the property in the name. Regardless, I hope its all DT runes - I could use an easy button when it comes to DT.

[Marten]

After thinking it over a bit more, I'm still not convinced.


Hear me out...

Assuming runes are identified in chest/turn in for draconic, then you are pretty much guaranteed to get what you want on those two tiers with only a bit of luck and grinding (its just been made much easier than it was). So if you have what you want on those two tiers, why would you ever want to uncrunch a sovereign? Because you made one you don't like from three tempests? Ok so they won't go to complete waste then? So that maybe they can be turned into 1 or 2 more tempests for the next crunching?? Honestly that doesn't really sound like as big of a deal as it sounds in Mad's blog.

They could have just had them be identified in chest and not had the uncrunching effect, saved themselves a whole heck of a lot of programming time and effort. In other words, I think the uncrunching is kind of a wasted effort on the dev's part if the runes are identified in chest.

Ok, I hate to sound this way, but lets use a little simple logic here.
If runes "pre crunching" are not named how do you know its "a[n] undesired Sovereign Rune?" Are you trying to say that you shouldn't be able to tell what kind it is until you loot it or have to crunch it just to see a name? Only change it so you can see the name of Sovereign Runes and not the others? I just don't see it that way. The less code the better.

What the rune is - is decided once someone opens the chest and is coded to that rune, that is why runes of the same stat will stack in your inventory, so even the ones you have now should be "named" once U7 hits... all they are doing is adding code to show the tag (simple), that is not a huge deal and should grandfater in old existing runes. It would be even more code to tell the client to mask the name while in a chest/vendor vs when its in your inventory. More code = bad, so keep it simple. The breaking of the Sovereign Rune is new code. There is a difference between "more code" and "new code"

The following is a list of Runes-

Sovereign Runes:
-10% Arcane Spell Failure
+3 Dodge(Doesnt stack with Chattering Ring)
+4 Natural Armor
Air Guard
Crippling
Destruct
Devotion VIII
Disintegration Guard
Earthen Guard (procs Stoneskin, caster level 7)
Earthgrab Guard
Enervasion Guard
Freezing Ice Guard
Glacial Assault(Sup Glaciation VIII, 3 piece set)
Glaciation VIII
Greater Combustion VII
Greater Elemental Energy[+20 hp](Doesnt stack with tier 3 shroud hp)
Greater Elemental Spell Power [+100 sp](Doesnt stack with tier 3 shroud sp)
Greater Potency VII
Greater Spell Pen VIII
Heightened Awareness 4(+4 Insight AC)
Imp Glaciation VIII
Imp Resonance VIII
Incite +20%(+20% Threat)
Levik's Defender(+5 Insight AC, 30% Threat, 3 piece set)
Lorrik's Defender(Sup Devotion VIII)
Melodic Guard (chance to dance on hit)
Potency VIII
Radiance Guard
Resonance VIII
Smite (smite on melee attacks)
Sundering Ooze Guard
Superior Combustion VII
Tharne's Wrath(Feather Falling, 3 piece set)

I count 33. So, how is someone " pretty much guaranteed" the rune they are wanting in a six person group?

Even the first two tiers are not much better -
Eldritch Runes:
20% Striding
25% Striding
Deathblock
Feather Falling
Fearsome
Greater False Life
Greater Resists
Healing amplification 10%
Heavy Fort
Improved False Life
Incite +10% (+10% Threat)
Lion Heart Proc
Resistance +5
Stat Skills +3

Green = 6 runes and blue = 5 runes for a total of 22 which is a number bigger than the list that will be generated at the vendor so you can't even use that as a guarante.

Tempest Runes:
-5% Arcane Spell Failure
+1 Exceptional Stat
+6 Stat
Combustion VII
Corrosive Salt Guard
Crushing Wave Guard
Efficient Metamagic - Empower Healing 2
Healing Amplification 20%
Incite +15% (+15% Threat)
Magma Surge Guard
Protection +5
Spell Pen VIII
SR 22
True Seeing
Wiz VI

Green = 6 runes for a total of 25. Again in a six person group your odds are ~24% if each person get a unique rune, but that is not even a given.

So if you have what you want on those two tiers, why would you ever want to uncrunch a sovereign?

For every Tempest Rune you get back is one less casual Prey run... that is 15 to 30 mins of my life back (including time to go back and get the quest and run back out). That is a big deal. I have put more than 40 to 50 hrs in on my DT and have the best tanking armor you could hope for... I'm a cleric... Its resist gear to me because I stopped doing the grind. This change will allow me to spend less time getting something I want, that is never a bad thing. Frankly if they wanted to really make it better for the player the runes should be bound to account and not character. It would be one more reasone for people to buy shared bank space too!

However, in the end only time will tell. At least we have something to look forward to and really, when people ask me if that AP is worth buying... I tell them no, unless they like to run a single quest 3 to 9 times a day for a month for a chance at the armor they desire. With this change I will change that to a yes, its worth it.

If you didn't already have an idea of how much time someone has to spend to get the armor they want read the following and think in terms of each run is 15 to 30 mins of your life.

Quote from DT Crafting:

Statistics:

Like it of hate it, this is what we have for armor crafting so all we can do is learn to live with it. Part of this revolves around "managing expectations" (sorry for the use of this catch-phrase to those of you who are sick of it). Obviously, very few of us went in on our first attempt and crafted up the exact armor we wanted. As I will illustrate below, the chances of doing that are rather low.

I wanted to get a rough idea as to how many runs it would take to get the armor I wanted. Obviously, there is never a 100% chance you will get what you want in a random system, however you can determine the statistical likelihood of obtaining the desired result if you know the number of possible outcomes.

Each of the tiers have over 20 possible upgrades from what I have been able to discern from the various posts on the forums. It looks like tier III has at least 30 possible upgrades, 22 for tier II, and 26 for tier I. I suspect the tier I and II numbers are a bit low but for now I will use these numbers as the difference is not hugely material to the number or required runs.

With these numbers, the chances of getting what you want each time (assuming there is only 1 outcome for each tier that you will find acceptable) are:

tier I: 1/26 or 3.8%
tier II: 1/22 or 4.5%
tier III: 1/30 or 3.3%

The chance of all 3 of these working out for you on your first attempt are very low:

3.8% * 4.5%* * 3.3% = 0.006%...

...not a bet any rational person would take, though it suggests that 1 out of every 16,667 people will get what they want the first time (probably that annoying person on the forums who brags about their luck... of course they are not lucky, they are just a statistic).

Fortunately for us, the 3 tiers upgrade independantly of each other so our odds of getting what we want on subsequent upgrades increase markedly. I usually consider the 80% success rate as a number by which I can reasonably succeed. In order to have a 80% chance of the desired outcome it would take:

tier I: 41 attempts
tier II: 35 attempts
tier III: 48 attempts

of course this means that 2 out of every 10 people will not have what they want after the above numbers of runs. These people are usually the loudest in their complaints so I expect a fair bit of complaining about the number of runs required.

The numbers required for a 99% success rate are:

tier I: 117 attempts
tier II: 99 attempts
tier III: 137 attempts

This basically means that 1 out of every 100 people will upgrade their armor over 100 times and still not have what they want. These people will be the ones who post on the forums thinking the devs are out to get them.

On a point forward basis though these numbers are not useful for setting expectations. Your odds of achieving success on your next try are the same as your odds of succeeding on your first try... just something to keep in mind.

I do think we will be able to see the rune's name in chest/vendor and it will help the grind and I think "breaking" the Sovereign Rune is also a huge boon for saving player's grind time that we could be having fun... for me at least fun /= Prey 9 runs/day.

I thank you for your time.

Marten

[Durion]

Moar Easy Button!!!

How so? Oh because you don't have to FARM your runes anymore. Oh wait, yes you do.

All this means is when someone gets a desired effect on their DT armor, they don't have to drop it for something useless to them anymore trying to get what they want.

I am curious to hear what makes this an easy button though.

[Nospheratus]

To be honest, almost ANY change to the DT system is a good change! The system is simply horrible to go through! I had to use around 150 SOV runes on my cleric to get the desired effect. How is that for a list of 33 effects? Seems like some have a higher drop rate than others.

If they do implement this "properly", then they should also consider allowing people to change the armor's looks, even if only the colors. And also, change the Tharne's 3-item set bonus something other than feather fall - did they roll a dice to determine the effect!?!?..

Being able to see what the rune effect is, is very very good. Anxious to see it in-game!

[sephiroth1084]

Anyone else feel that it's worded such that it may be read as either the runes you get from turning in your Sovereign are identifiable, or that all runes are identifiable? I really hope its the latter, but can see a reading for the former.

In any case, thank you, devs, for finally getting to this. I want to be like everyone else and just leave a purely positive, "Heck yeah!" post, but I simply cannot muster that sort of untainted enthusiasm for stuff coming down the pipe anymore.

Restore my faith in the ability of the devs to turn out, bug-free, relevant and enjoyable content.
/slap

The gauntlet has been thrown.

[Kaldaka]

... snip *especially* If runes "pre crunching" are not named how do you know its "a[n] undesired Sovereign Rune?"

I do get what you are saying, but I still think a simple *named in chest* would be a much more effective use of the dev's time, rather than both *named in chest* and *decrunching sovereigns*. It could be that the altar itself names the rune, but the rune doesn't name itself ...

I'm of the opinion that they might make it *named once placed in altar* and that's how you would get the undesired sovereign rune (you'd certainly have a lot more 'undesired' if you didn't know what it was when you picked it up out of the chest). But there are other ways to build up undesired sovereigns, such as collecting a bunch of them from several runs and then trying them out in the altar, getting what you want the first couple tries, the rest are then 'undesired' ... Happens to me all the time in Reaver's refuge right now with Eldritch and Tempest that I have left over.

So your 'simple logic' that you have to know what it is before it becomes 'undesired' isn't necessarily true ...


Oh and btw, I noticed that you quoted one sentence from my post, then replied to it with pretty much exactly what I said in the next couple sentences ... Makes me think you skipped that part