Improving PvP

[BitkaCK2]

I'm amazed this thread is still going.

Okay, so I'm going to to try and sum up, people that like PvP want to improve PvP in a game designed for PvE. What we've got here is a classic:
situation.

A point was brought up about PvP bringing in cash for Turbine but do you see the mess created by forcing that square peg into that round hole? That's going to be expensive to clean up. I posit that Turbine would actual lose money trying to fit what was an afterthought into a game designed for PvE.

Another point that was brought up was "If Turbine had infinite resources" and "If all bugs were fixed, PrEs complete, and a steady flow of new content secured" why not improve PvP. From a programming perspective there's a good chance of breaking something try to improve and further integrate what is essentially a 'stub' in a game designed for PvE.

Relating to the above point but also to one brought up about the player base, I and many others that play DDO for PvE would rather see resources go towards new races, classes, world (shaping?) events, crafting improvements, UI improvements, graphical updates, and a host of many other 'anything other than PvP' improvements.

So again, trying to improve PvP in a game coded from ground up for PvE and having a PvE player base* is like trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

bitkaCK2

*Seriously, how many people say "I feel like pwning sum noobs" and then go play DDO for PvP.

[Bobthesponge]

no

[Flyhalfer]

The simple fact is that DDO already has PvP in its Arena's.

A personal opinion of mine is that PvP should not use up more than a one time minimum of resources, but could be significantly improved using current came coding.



So on that note, here is all that needs to be known and or done about making PvP better in DDO.

Arenas are a poor venue for those who enjoy PvP.

The only solution PvP needs in DDO is to make a copy of one outdoor adventure zone and enable it for PvP in the same way they enable the Arena’s for PvP. Since common areas are already load balanced, you use the same code to load balance the PvP zone.




Don't worry at all about class balance.

It would indeed be a waste of resources as no matter how finely tuned a game's PvP balance is there are always "The best" classes and builds and the "most gimp" classes and builds.



Don't worry about PvP rewards. The reward system will be exploited. Period.

PvP rewards just don't work out without a lot of time spent making sure they can't be "gamed." As I said previously, I absolutely do not want more than the minimum of resources put to improving the “PvP arena" part of the existing game.



I'm not sure how you would keep the e-peen chat from taking place and, again, as a lover of PvP I hate the bragging in open chat too. However, since that is already a part of the DDO game experience, it wouldn't really be a change.



My final point is for the, “I don't want any resources spent on PvP, just take it out of the game....” position.

You do see the irony in both not wanting any resources spent on PvP and the desire to have the devs take it out of the game don't you? 
?

[CrescentCalling_5]

The simple fact is that DDO already has PvP in its Arena's.

A personal opinion of mine is that PvP should not use up more than a one time minimum of resources, but could be significantly improved using current came coding.



So on that note, here is all that needs to be known and or done about making PvP better in DDO.

Arenas are a poor venue for those who enjoy PvP.

The only solution PvP needs in DDO is to make a copy of one outdoor adventure zone and enable it for PvP in the same way they enable the Arena’s for PvP. Since common areas are already load balanced, you use the same code to load balance the PvP zone.




Don't worry at all about class balance.

It would indeed be a waste of resources as no matter how finely tuned a game's PvP balance is there are always "The best" classes and builds and the "most gimp" classes and builds.



Don't worry about PvP rewards. The reward system will be exploited. Period.

PvP rewards just don't work out without a lot of time spent making sure they can't be "gamed." As I said previously, I absolutely do not want more than the minimum of resources put to improving the “PvP arena" part of the existing game.



I'm not sure how you would keep the e-peen chat from taking place and, again, as a lover of PvP I hate the bragging in open chat too. However, since that is already a part of the DDO game experience, it wouldn't really be a change.



My final point is for the, “I don't want any resources spent on PvP, just take it out of the game....” position.

You do see the irony in both not wanting any resources spent on PvP and the desire to have the devs take it out of the game don't you? 
?

Yes actually, I see the irony in the contradiction but your words make sense.

I actually like your idea of PvP, it simply involves copying a single map (or a few maps), recoding a few parts of it, and leaving all the environmental effects in (for a bit of flavor). Low resource cost, low effort, me like

I may have an idea how to remove some of the PvP chat with it:

Make a PvP entrance area (not the tavern) that is completely seperate from the other chat channels. Removes the majority of the **** (and we all know that there are idiots who will go around bragging about their tavern brawls in DDO today, so a majority is all we really need xD)

[Visty]

good that you brought that up

The simple fact is that DDO already has PvP in its Arena's.

and noone uses is

why improve something noone uses?

[tenalafel]

Just a side note...

Who here remembers that PVP was an afterthought that came about a year after the game was released ?



What I want to explain with that question is that the game wasn't designed for PVP and that PVP was introduced, in restricted areas, ( much to the dismay of a lot of us that were quite happy to live without PVP and all the nuisances that comes with it ) long after release because some people whined to have it while another bunch whined for no PVP.

As such the current PVP is a compromise between catering for those that want to measure their e-peen and show their l33t Ub3rn3s5 to the face of the world and the people true to the original game which is purely PvE. It is unbalanced between classes, it doesn't works well, but it exists while being a minor nuisance to those that don't want to have to deal with it.

( Yes, I'm definitely against any PVP... and I would have been quite happy if they had left that totally out of DDO... But I can live with how it is right now and don't see any reasons to see it expanded ).

[CrescentCalling_5]

Just a side note...

Who here remembers that PVP was an afterthought that came about a year after the game was released ?



What I want to explain with that question is that the game wasn't designed for PVP and that PVP was introduced, in restricted areas, ( much to the dismay of a lot of us that were quite happy to live without PVP and all the nuisances that comes with it ) long after release because some people whined to have it while another bunch whined for no PVP.

As such the current PVP is a compromise between catering for those that want to measure their e-peen and show their l33t Ub3rn3s5 to the face of the world and the people true to the original game which is purely PvE. It is unbalanced between classes, it doesn't works well, but it exists while being a minor nuisance to those that don't want to have to deal with it.

( Yes, I'm definitely against any PVP... and I would have been quite happy if they had left that totally out of DDO... But I can live with how it is right now and don't see any reasons to see it expanded ).

If you're against PvP and the concept is implemented in a way that the effect on you is minimal, then simply choose not to play PvP :|

with the edit I made thanks to Flyhalfer, PvP should require minimal resources "and" contain good old leet speech to PvP areas. PvE players lose nothing, people who want PvP get a nice bonus, and Turbine can probably find a way to turn that into a goldmine (which means more money to spend on PvE staff).

[TreknaQudane]

Can you stop Arcanes from casting spells that at base do over 600 damage?

Can you stop Rangers from using Manyshot as soon as you come into range?

Will you stop a Cleric from simply imploding you?

What about Paladins? They can only Smite Evil, there goes their biggest damage source.

Same for Rogues, they can only sneak attack something that doesn't have 100% Fortification.

PvP would favor anyone that can attack by Range or Spell (Watch out if the Arcanes of Disjunction.) The system used in 3.5 DnD and DDO isn't balanced for PvP. Implementing it would be pointless.

[Flyhalfer]

Can you stop Arcanes from casting spells that at base do over 600 damage?

Saves? Close to melee and kill? Shoot with bow? Use terrain? Cast your own 600 point spell? etc... PvP is about adapting and overcoming. Someone figures out a good strat, someone else figures out a counter. That's what makes it fun.

Can you stop Rangers from using Manyshot as soon as you come into range?

No, but I bet I can figure out a way to beat it. (Strafing FTW) See above.

Will you stop a Cleric from simply imploding you?

Saves? Stay out of range till expired? See Above.

What about Paladins? They can only Smite Evil, there goes their biggest damage source


Same for Rogues, they can only sneak attack something that doesn't have 100% Fortification..

Don't PvP with a Paladin or Rouge unless you are willing to accept this limitation. Same thing goes for all those min/max Kopesh users. Maybe PvP will end up having a different set of uber builds. Might be fun figuring them out.


PvP can be a challenge. "I win buttons" have a short shelf life. Someone always figures out a way to beat it.
That's what makes it so dang fun. You just can't take getting killed too seriously.

[Saaluta]

I am one of the many people in this game that thinks PVP in this game is fine as is. I personally wouldn't shed a tear if it was taken out altogether, but since Turbine has it in the arenas, then that's fine...I don't have to enter those arenas...although, I wish they would make the pvp arenas separate instances...nothing like loading into the Phoenix Tavern (or others) and lagging out due to all the kids in there pwning each other with their ub3rn355 (ROFLMAO!!!!!!!)...sorry, just because you can hit each other in a closed arena doesn't make you uber IMO, but to each their own. All I'm saying is that no, I don't want Turbine spending more time and resources on an afterthought that isn't important to at least 80% of the people that play this game.

Saal