Improving PvP

[rimble]

I have played an MMO that kept the PvP game mechanics and PvE game mechanics seperate. Damage of one type of attack done in PvP is a different amount than PvE. You can change the mechanics on one without changing the other.

With all due respect, there's no convincing me. I'm aware the mechanics can be separate, but then you get back to resources. I'm well aware we're just the kids playing at arguing while the parents (devs) go off and do what they want. However, as mentioned above, there is NEVER a scenario in DDO where I'd prefer resources be put towards PvP instead of ANY OTHER aspect of the game. Of course, that's just me, and Turbine will make their decision accordingly--however, that usually means "more money/subscribers" and I don't really see how a better PvP system would help that here. PvP is a bit of a subculture here, not particularly in the mainstream. I never wanted to turn this into a crazy anti-PvP thread. If people want to hash out PvP ideas that's fine, Turbine can take it or leave it.

[Angelus_dead]

1. All those people that are against PvP development do not play PvP?

The better question is if those people in favor of PVP development have actually played PVP in DDO. The ones who make suggestions about awarding points and prizes clearly don't understand how PVP currently works.

For those who have the arguement of developer time / cost - none of us know how many resources Turbine has.

Nope: We do know for a fact that Turbine does not have enough resources to correctly balance their existing PVE gameplay. A quick glance at S&B, Longbows, Crossbows, Thrown, THF, TWF, Fortification, and Wall of Fire makes that clear. Counting up the number of prestige specialties that remain unavailable after more than a year also gives a clue.

[CrescentCalling_5]

turbine has X workers in their staff
you need at least 1 of them to improve PVP
ergo they only have X-1 to work on PVE

simple rule of three

Wrong.

You have no clue exactly how Turbine uses their employees or their management.

Since Turbine is responsible for more than just DDO it could and probably is something like this:

X workers assigned to DDO graphics
X workers assigned to DDO PvE gameplay
X workers assigned to DDO general conceptual balancing

and of course

X workers assigned to other games
X workers on freelancing contracts

So to implement PvP you don't need to get that X-1 worker moved over from PvE, you simply need to invoke a few of those X workers on freelancing contracts to work on PvP, or pull some of those X workers assigned to other games that are currently doing very little or nothing. There are ALWAYS freelance agreements set up in game companies like this, and there is NEVER enough work to keep all the graphic artists, programmers, concept designers, concept reviewers, and testers busy in games.

Turbine can and probably has pulled employees from its other games to work on DDO before. It also can and probably has pulled employees from DDO to work on its other games. It's DEFINATELY turned to freelancers who will work for a lot less money (considering how everything's done in japan now adays :P).

So in terms of number of workers...frankly there is no argument.

[azrael4h]

The number one solution for improving DDO's PvP is to remove it entirely.

Number two would be shutting down DDO entirely, before it sucks due to focusing on PvP.

Of every MMO I've seen and played, the PvP aspect is what ruined the game. It serves no function whatsoever, other than give people with no life something to brag about. Go back to WoW, and brag about your level 45 whatever's wang size. That is all PvP is, and all that does is provide a tremendous detriment to the game.

DDO is not Call of Duty, and should never become Call of Duty.

[Angelus_dead]

So to implement PvP you don't need to get that X-1 worker moved over from PvE, you simply need to invoke a few of those X workers on freelancing contracts to work on PvP, or pull some of those X workers assigned to other games that are currently doing very little or nothing.

Every freelance worker put on PVP is one less freelance worker on PVE. Even if there are infinite numbers of qualified freelancers out there, there isn't infinite money to hire them.

Do you think DDO's PVE game mechanics are mostly finished?

[CrescentCalling_5]

The number one solution for improving DDO's PvP is to remove it entirely.

Number two would be shutting down DDO entirely, before it sucks due to focusing on PvP.

Of every MMO I've seen and played, the PvP aspect is what ruined the game. It serves no function whatsoever, other than give people with no life something to brag about. Go back to WoW, and brag about your level 45 whatever's wang size. That is all PvP is, and all that does is provide a tremendous detriment to the game.

DDO is not Call of Duty, and should never become Call of Duty.

Try playing Guild Wars sometime :P their version of PvP was so incredible that even after people had beaten all the PvE content (including 3 campaigns, 1 expansion, and a boatload of farming and collectibles) they stuck around for years to play PvP. It's balanced, even if you have superior items your build always matters more, and the only reason I'm not playing it anymore is because DDO has more versatile gameplay.

[Vynnt]

Try playing Guild Wars sometime :P their version of PvP was so incredible that even after people had beaten all the PvE content (including 3 campaigns, 1 expansion, and a boatload of farming and collectibles) they stuck around for years to play PvP. It's balanced, even if you have superior items your build always matters more, and the only reason I'm not playing it anymore is because DDO has more versatile gameplay.

There is a reason its PvP was good, the game was built around it.

DDO can never be balanced, and if it was, it would severely hurt PvE. DDO is not focused on PvP, so PvP rewards are bad, because that would take DDO is a direction it cannot handle with its mechanics.

Balancing is even harder due to the customizability you have with your character or build.

Go drop in the lobster and you will see how unbalanced things are. Fixing that would take a huge amount of dev time and a overhaul of the entire system.

DDO/D&D/d20 is just not built for PvP.

[Angelus_dead]

Try playing Guild Wars sometime :P their version of PvP was so incredible

How many years had Guild Wars been in operation before the developers started designing the PVP gameplay?

[Rav'n]

Absolutely not... and a -1 for being Rude and obnoxious. Never make a suggestion and in it tell everyone that doesn't agree with your suggestion to not bother posting.



Visty/AD... +1, Nice replies, short and to the point.

OP-As someone else pointed out... play the game before trying to "save the world"(whether we want it 'saved' or not).

[ragwa1]

Just a note, if you can't bother to actually read my post all the way through before you shoot it down, don't post at all. I don't want to hear your post and I doubt the other thousands of players want to hear your automatic no either. Thank you those who are polite enough to read through my suggestion


Before I actually state my idea I'd like to make one thing clear first. If this gets implemented before ALL the prestige enhancements and races are in, balanced, and debugged the developers should remove them before I lead an angry mob to their hq :3
So to the point, this is a suggestion for AFTER we have the content and races (half-orc, druid, all prestiges, etc.) shoved and balanced into the game.

The Thing That Ties it All Together: Arena Points

This is a special point system similar to money, while playing in any of the following arenas you recieve special points. These points can be traded in for special items and equipment (mostly things that look cool or have a purely cosmetic effect, but maybe a nice levelled weapon or two wouldn't hurt) and possibly donated to the guild which can buy special improvements or cosmetics (visible guild capes, guild emotes, etc).

This system gives players a reason to keep playing once they hit level 20. "I'm king of quests and favor! Now I've gotta be king of PvP!!!" -10 hours later- "I'm king of PvP!!!!" -1 hour later- "Oh crud I've gotta protect my title!!!"

One Arena Point is granted for every kill the player makes in the Arenas (tavern brawling does not count, ever). However, if the player dies, they lose 2 points. If any player recieves -10 total arena points (yes the player can have negative points), they are unable to play in the arena for 1 hour (this prevents point farming, if you have a better idea please tell me...).

Total points gained and lost are recorded and the highest 10 for both are posted on the D&D website. E-fame :3

Now onto what each arena is


Levelled Free For All Arena

This arena is similar to the tavern in gameplay, with a few changes. Players enter an arena instance based on their level. The instances are

1. 7-10
2. 11-13
3. 14-16
4. 17-20

They enter at a random co ordinate in the arena, which prevents griefing and camping. Players can stay as long as they please. Special recovery shrines dot the arena which are non-pvp zones, players are allowed to leave the arena from these zones and ressurect at them if they die.

Parties cannot be created inside this arena or enter this arena.


4v4 Arena

In this arena 2 teams of 4 battle it out in one of two arenas (randomly chosen). The Open Field and The Maze.

General Rules:
Prospective teams must be part of a 4 person party to enter. When another team signs up they are matched together and sent to the arena (at different start points of course). When either team racks up 10 kills they are victorious (this is subject to change of course but 10 kills is pretty difficult considering the next rule :P)
Requires Level 20 characters.

Open Field:
This open field has very few obstacles except a few trees and rocks. Players can attempt to use the terrain to protect themselves but it is extremely difficult. This map favors martial types and ranged types.

The Maze:
This labrynth was designed to keep people on their toes and under constant watch. The large number of twists and turns can make it difficult to spot your own team let alone enemies. This map is marked by many secret doors, players who find the secret doors first can use them to ambush enemies, or possibly be ambushed themselves. This map favors stealth and casters due to its tight corners and the ease of setting up traps in just the right area.

More maps can definately be added, but I just put two here to add some spice to a possibly decent idea :3


6v6 Arena

This arena is exactly the same as the 4v4 arena except that the party must be a full 6 players to join.


12v12 Raid Arena

This arena has 2 options. In one case it is exactly as the 4v4 arena except the party must be a full Raid Party (12 players) and gameplay tends to be very intense.

Raid Challenge:

This is the second option for the 12v12 Raid Arena, the Raid Challenge. One team is assigned to defend a fort (fully equipped with breakable doors, exploding barrels, grease traps, the works :3) while the other team is assigned to break into the fort and kill the Fort Guardian which will win the game.
Upon death the player ressurects at the appropriate start point (full health and sp but no ki) where there is a single rest shrine.
Obviously since players such as archers and rogues would excel at defense in this arena the defense/offense is randomly chosen.
As another bonus for the Attackers (since Defense seems pretty easy up to this point :P) the Attack points are equipped with Mobile Battering Rams. The battering ram has 300 hp, 30 AC, 100% fortification, 30/- Adamantine, inflicts 25% damage to the Fort Door every 20 seconds, and resurrects after 2 minutes. (there are only 2 battering rams, and they head to their respective Fort Doors after activation)
If the defenders keep the fort protected for the full 15 minutes, they win the match!

For the record I stole a small bit of this concept from another MMO I used to play called Guild Wars :3 with the Kurzick and Luxon Fort Aspenwood PvP challenge. I just had the feeling that adding in DDO's character customization and bigger vocabulary (if you wanna call it that xD) would make this concept work a lot better and last a lot longer. Considering that and the faction system kept me addicted to guild wars for 4 years after I beat the game, I thought it might help players here :3

NO.

This is NOT a pvp game.

[Visty]

Wrong.

You have no clue exactly how Turbine uses their employees or their management.

you neither, so the rest of your post is just as much worth as my post

how much that is, depends on you

[Postumus]

they just flat out said no. i haven't even read what you said yet and i agreed with them.

:rolleyes

[rezo]

To the OP. I see nothing wrong with what your saying about improving the PvP. For the longest time I didn't want PvP or anything to do with it but, lately I see no reasons not to change it and your ideas for a change are very good. Many player ( old ones ) don't like change but I feel the PvP system could use an upgrade. Just as long as you don't get "XP" for PvPing I say what could it hurt.

[Postumus]

NO.

This is NOT a pvp game.

Pffft. Whatever.

There's no reason DDO can't have a good PvP element to it. I think it is a great idea. It would expand gaming experience, and allow people who like to compete with others a chance to do so.

It could be a solid money maker for Turbine if they implemented a system similar to what the OP stated, but made players purchase tourney tickets with their Turbine/favor points.

If Turbine went that route, they should offer more than just 'braggin rights'-type rewards; good gear, unique items and turbine/favor point bundles as top prizes would draw more players. Additional prizes could be guild prestige for guild on guild action.

This would also give F2P players a chance to earn more turbine points through PVP game play rather than favor grinding.

It would also add another facet to character builds since what makes a good party character build is not necessarily what makes a good PvP build. So some players might have fun building adventurer-type characters AND separate PvP characters on the same account.

I think the OP has a good idea. It amuses me how many others just shoot it down outright. Lack of creativity? Stubbornness? Fear of change? Interesting.

[Visty]

Pffft. Whatever.

There's no reason DDO can't have a good PvP element to it.

wrong ,read the thread, several are shown

I think it is a great idea. It would expand gaming experience, and allow people who like to compete with others a chance to do so.

It could be a solid money maker for Turbine if they implemented a system similar to what the OP stated, but made players purchase tourney tickets with their Turbine/favor points.

If Turbine went that route, they should offer more than just 'braggin rights'-type rewards; good gear, unique items and turbine/favor point bundles as top prizes would draw more players. Additional prizes could be guild prestige for guild on guild action.

This would also give F2P players a chance to earn more turbine points through PVP game play rather than favor grinding.

It would also add another facet to character builds since what makes a good party character build is not necessarily what makes a good PvP build. So some players might have fun building adventurer-type characters AND separate PvP characters on the same account.

I think the OP has a good idea. It amuses me how many others just shoot it down outright. Lack of creativity? Stubbornness? Fear of change? Interesting.

a system where you get a reward will be abused, esp if its more then just bragging rights
if you give out items, then they either are so weak noone will use them or they are so mighty that they are a musthave
if you give out TP, then the clever ppl will buy the whole game for free and turbine will never see any money from them again

[ragwa1]

Pffft. Whatever.

There's no reason DDO can't have a good PvP element to it. I think it is a great idea. It would expand gaming experience, and allow people who like to compete with others a chance to do so.

It could be a solid money maker for Turbine if they implemented a system similar to what the OP stated, but made players purchase tourney tickets with their Turbine/favor points.

If Turbine went that route, they should offer more than just 'braggin rights'-type rewards; good gear, unique items and turbine/favor point bundles as top prizes would draw more players. Additional prizes could be guild prestige for guild on guild action.

This would also give F2P players a chance to earn more turbine points through PVP game play rather than favor grinding.

EDIT: And BTW, adding in ANY sort of gear reward for pvp is just comically stupid for so many reasons...
It would also add another facet to character builds since what makes a good party character build is not necessarily what makes a good PvP build. So some players might have fun building adventurer-type characters AND separate PvP characters on the same account.

I think the OP has a good idea. It amuses me how many others just shoot it down outright. Lack of creativity? Stubbornness? Fear of change? Interesting.

Wrong.

Go play a pvp oriented game if that is your thing.

It's going to take more than just a few changes to make pvp balanced enough here that it doesnt screw with pve.

And with the staff and the demeanor of the staff shown here recently, I don't ever foresee any thing like this ever happening. No matter how many letters to Santa you write.

[Scraap]

Try playing Guild Wars sometime :P their version of PvP was so incredible that even after people had beaten all the PvE content (including 3 campaigns, 1 expansion, and a boatload of farming and collectibles) they stuck around for years to play PvP. It's balanced, even if you have superior items your build always matters more, and the only reason I'm not playing it anymore is because DDO has more versatile gameplay.

I've played that one myself, and while I don't have the same knee-jerk 'no. just no' reaction some may, I would have to point out the whole build vs itemset flaw in the argument.

When you've got a game that destroys backstabbing by level 7-9 via an item and only an item (ok, so there's 1 feat for 1 race with enough downside that no one sane would take it), and when you've a game that drops items with 33% fire absorption alongside what is it, 30 additional points after that, again via purely an item with no equivalent class feature save for 2 classes/via umd, balance does become a non-trivial implementation representing several months dedicated development time at a minimum. It does at that point quickly become a case of you personally needing to, as you put it "lead an angry mob to their hq :3" almost invariably.

I'd like to sign on simply to keep the extra folks around and providing revenue, but the ROI on the notions a bit steep on the time investment vs payoff side for me at least to be comfortable with the notion. Particularly given that the 4 proposed arenas would correspond in terms of modeling, skinning, and mapping to an equivalent content pack on top of some really heavy programming hours.

It's certainly not the absolute worst notion along those lines I've read to date, but it overlooks a great deal of additional back-end work first beyond just PREs and races.

[Postumus]

if you give out items, then they either are so weak noone will use them or they are so mighty that they are a musthave

Disagree. Unique items can be underpowered or mundane, but by virtue of being unique they have value and are desirable.

Cosmetic items are a great example. By winning a tournament you/your guild gets some unique 'order of the tail kickers' emblem you can apply to your shield or armor. Even a dye/style for your existing armor.

It's simple, has appeal to some players as a personal prestige item, but is not a must have that 'unbalances' the game.

Another good reward would be guild prestige. Or winning a credit for a guildship item.

Lesser awards could be plat, tickets to additional tourneys, temporary boost of an ability/skill for several hours, hard to find components, whatever.

if you give out TP, then the clever ppl will buy the whole game for free and turbine will never see any money from them again

I have to disagree with this also. Yes, certain players who are skilled will always do well, and can probably earn enough turbine points by winning tourneys to never have to pay for turbine points; some players will win consistently or place consistently enough to be able to keep entering tourneys without paying money or favor grinding for the entry fee; but the majority of players will not be lucky/skilled enough to 'buy the whole game for free.'

If anything, the contrary would happen if the rewards were turbine points.

For example, if you have an 8 player winner take all tourney where the entry fee is 25 TP/player and the purse/reward for the winner is 100TP, then turbine makes 100TP - or about $1.10/tourney.

Make larger round robin type events starting with 16 and at 25TP/player, turbine could give away 100TP to the winner, 50 TP to the runner up, and 25TP to third and still make 225TP (about $2.50ish) per tourney.

Yes, some great players, say the top four, will earn enough TP to not spend actual dollars at turbine to keep playing tourneys or purchase some items, but 3/4 of the players will need to spend dollars to buy more TP.


The types of tourneys are almost limitless. 1v3, 1v7,2v2, 2v8, 4v4, 4v16, 8v8, 8v64.

There could be 'guild only' tourneys with teams representing guilds with guild related rewards in addition to individual awards.

And, if Turbine really wanted to capitalize on a tourney system, they could allow players to bet on players/teams - using plat or TP.

The best part is, people who don't like PvP don't have to participate. It really doesn't affect their game play. But it could add an exciting new element for other players and increase Turbine's revenue stream.

[Uska]

NO

first off any rewards beyond just braging rights can and will be abused

second no time should be wasted on working on pvp that could be better spent fixing bugs and making content that more players would use then some point less pvp(remember I said it should have no rewards beyond braging)

Finally there should never be any adjustments to any pve rules to make things better for pvp.

so once again NO

[Visty]

Disagree. Unique items can be underpowered or mundane, but by virtue of being unique they have value and are desirable.

Cosmetic items are a great example. By winning a tournament you/your guild gets some unique 'order of the tail kickers' emblem you can apply to your shield or armor. Even a dye/style for your existing armor.

It's simple, has appeal to some players as a personal prestige item, but is not a must have that 'unbalances' the game.

Another good reward would be guild prestige. Or winning a credit for a guildship item.

Lesser awards could be plat, tickets to additional tourneys, temporary boost of an ability/skill for several hours, hard to find components, whatever.



I have to disagree with this also. Yes, certain players who are skilled will always do well, and can probably earn enough turbine points by winning tourneys to never have to pay for turbine points; some players will win consistently or place consistently enough to be able to keep entering tourneys without paying money or favor grinding for the entry fee; but the majority of players will not be lucky/skilled enough to 'buy the whole game for free.'

If anything, the contrary would happen if the rewards were turbine points.

For example, if you have an 8 player winner take all tourney where the entry fee is 25 TP/player and the purse/reward for the winner is 100TP, then turbine makes 100TP - or about $1.10/tourney.

Make larger round robin type events starting with 16 and at 25TP/player, turbine could give away 100TP to the winner, 50 TP to the runner up, and 25TP to third and still make 225TP (about $2.50ish) per tourney.

Yes, some great players, say the top four, will earn enough TP to not spend actual dollars at turbine to keep playing tourneys or purchase some items, but 3/4 of the players will need to spend dollars to buy more TP.


The types of tourneys are almost limitless. 1v3, 1v7,2v2, 2v8, 4v4, 4v16, 8v8, 8v64.

There could be 'guild only' tourneys with teams representing guilds with guild related rewards in addition to individual awards.

And, if Turbine really wanted to capitalize on a tourney system, they could allow players to bet on players/teams - using plat or TP.

The best part is, people who don't like PvP don't have to participate. It really doesn't affect their game play. But it could add an exciting new element for other players and increase Turbine's revenue stream.

so you want to invent very many technics to reward pvp (shield dye, armor dye, such embles, special ranks, tp buy in, ...) or give out ingame items (plat, discount, ...), thats the essence of creating a new game

add small amount of new stuff: addon to current game
add totally new technics and stuff: create a new game