What does "Endgame" mean to you?

[GlorkTheInvader]

I've seen and heard quite a bit of discussion about "endgame" lately. Some people like the Epic grind. Others hate it and won't touch it with a ten foot pole... and just about everything inbetween. I have also seen a number of alternate suggestions/solutions, such as Epic Feats/Enhancements/Abilities, Epic XP/Levels, and "new, non-Epic endgame content."

So it got me wondering....
1) What do you think of current "Endgame" content?

2) What would you like to add or change about existing Epic content?

3) Without Epic content, what alternate endgame system would you suggest?

4) What do you plan on doing with your toons once you acheve your endgame (existing or imagined) goals?



Personally, I'm fine with "Epic quests" as a concept. I don't mind grinding out for Epic gear, because it gives me continued reason to play toons that I would otherwise put on the shelf indefinitely. Is it frustrating to go through 20 Epic DQs without even seeing a shard that I'm looking for (much less having an opportunity to loot it myself)? Yeah, a bit. But it's exactly that which makes attaining (certain) epic gear an actual accomplishment.

I understand where people are coming from when they call for increasing level caps, or adding Epic Feats/Abilities, but I am by and large unconvinced that it would provide any real solution to the gripes that players have with Endgame as it exists now. Okay, so players would grind 5 more levels for a couple of Epic Feats. Once they get those feats, they wind up in the same situation we're in now... your toon is capped, you have your gear, and because you have even-more-uber-feats-and-stats, existing raids become even MORE trivial than they already are.

I'll give more specific answers to my own questions later, but I'm very interested to see the general community's opinions on what they like/dislike about DDO's current endgame, and where they see room for improvement or expansion.

[Failedlegend]

Personally I've never gotten the point of "end game" running the same quest over and over to get that awesome sword....to than turn around and use said sword in the same quest because well this is "endgame" iow theres nothing else after this.

It kinda defeats the purpose of an everchanging ganme...in theory the game should never end but every mmo in the worled had apprently gotten the idea that grining endlessly for no reason is fun.

When my wiz hits 20 ill probably run an epic or two just to experience it than ill roll a new toon or just quit until they raise the cap.

[Lleren]

I think that as "endgame" content that Epic quests does not do it for most players. I think True Resurecting is slightly more successful as an "endgame" option. It may be sad to say, but I think running "The Shroud" and other Raids repeatedly still appears to be the most popular "Endgame" that DDO has. Farming for ingredients for your Alts seems to engage more players I've met then the Epic questing does.

I doubt I'd change much at all about the current Epic Quests. Some folks like them and that is all to the good. A game should have some rougher to complete/play through content. I would like to see more quests/raids added to the lineup in fact. I would perhaps add a "difficulty meter" to them, not one that changes the difficulty from "epic", but one that rates the quest as per difficulty at "epic". Ones that are judged to be more challanging and longer to complete should give greater rewards, then the ones judged to e on the easier end of things.

More crafting options is what I would suggest as an alternate endgame, some bits tradeable, some bits account bound, some bits from quests and raids old and new. Sounds a lot like Epic. I would prefer a more popular version, and one that you could enter at 18 to add more quests that can be done while grabbing those last few levels =D

I plan on TRing a few of my characters, continue to farm with a few of my characters, and some characters will stick around and only be brought out for Guild scheduled runs of stuff.

[suitepotato]

EPIC IS NOT ENDGAME

Period.

Upping the stats of existing content while adding NOTHING is not uber.

Period.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, the reality of DDO is simply this: endgame is the stuff you grind at level 20 until your eyes bleed, your stomach twists, you retch, and finally spend some cash for points to buy wood to TR and remake your character until you do it all over again before TR'ing all over again.

We've asked for intricate game design, RP story adherence, complex faction politics, choose-your-own-story type action-reaction mechanics, more and better monsters, more thoughtful dungeon design, etc. and we've gotten NONE of that. We get ONE semi-new idea, and a dozen variations, and that's it. Shavarath, Meridia, etc. all just variations on ONE theme. No real thought. Even the Red Fens and that Kobold/Dragon one. Instead of steam tunnels, we have swamps. Same old monsters, just redressed. Hello, the vine monsters are trolls, people. The mud monsters are just moist clay golems.

Endgame is whatever you want it to be, and most of the time, that's not going to be anything you actually want to do, and what the actual endgame is, is stuff you don't have any real choice about doing if you don't want to play Superman and slaughter level 2 kobolds with your level 20 tank.

Hello, we defeated an invasion by devils and even went directly to Shavarath to b*tch-slap them. Shouldn't some of the demons and other powers have noted this and taken advantage of it MONTHS ago???

[Pyromaniac]

Endgame is level 1 reincarnation I think now. Sadly.

[zztophat]

I think that as "endgame" content that Epic quests does not do it for most players. I think True Resurecting is slightly more successful as an "endgame" option. It may be sad to say, but I think running "The Shroud" and other Raids repeatedly still appears to be the most popular "Endgame" that DDO has. Farming for ingredients for your Alts seems to engage more players I've met then the Epic questing does.

This. That's what I do with my capped toons.

Once my level 18 is 20 I'll basically just use it for raiding and farming and then I'll start playing my level 9. I'm hoping that with an up comming update I'll be able to roll a half-orc, I think I'll make it a maul kensai capstone fighter. After that? ...well maybe by then there will be druids and I'll roll one of those.

It's my hope that some time after that there will be a new level cap and I'll be able to do something with my capped toons again other than raiding and farming.

[GlorkTheInvader]

EPIC IS NOT ENDGAME

Period.

Upping the stats of existing content while adding NOTHING is not uber.

Period.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, the reality of DDO is simply this: endgame is the stuff you grind at level 20 until your eyes bleed, your stomach twists, you retch, and finally spend some cash for points to buy wood to TR and remake your character until you do it all over again before TR'ing all over again.

We've asked for intricate game design, RP story adherence, complex faction politics, choose-your-own-story type action-reaction mechanics, more and better monsters, more thoughtful dungeon design, etc. and we've gotten NONE of that. We get ONE semi-new idea, and a dozen variations, and that's it. Shavarath, Meridia, etc. all just variations on ONE theme. No real thought. Even the Red Fens and that Kobold/Dragon one. Instead of steam tunnels, we have swamps. Same old monsters, just redressed. Hello, the vine monsters are trolls, people. The mud monsters are just moist clay golems.

Endgame is whatever you want it to be, and most of the time, that's not going to be anything you actually want to do, and what the actual endgame is, is stuff you don't have any real choice about doing if you don't want to play Superman and slaughter level 2 kobolds with your level 20 tank.

Hello, we defeated an invasion by devils and even went directly to Shavarath to b*tch-slap them. Shouldn't some of the demons and other powers have noted this and taken advantage of it MONTHS ago???

You make a lot of interesting points here... some of which I agree with, and some of which I do not.

My own personal definition of "Endgame" is the current highest-level content. I'd say Vale, IQ/DD, Amrath, and Epic content. But you're absolutely right in that "endgame" is whatever an individual defines it to be. That is, "What occupies your time spent playing your capped toons?" is a more appropriate way of defining any individual player's 'endgame.' For some people that will be epic content. For others, it will be grinding out raid completions in the hopes of getting tomes, named loot, etc. For others still, it will be "log on once every three days to run a Shroud." So I guess my question becomes "What is your endgame, and what do you want your endgame to be?"

Now, as far as variable-plot, choose-your-own-adventure quests go, I like the idea in principle, but I have my own doubts. The closest we've gotten are some Amrath quests (Sins of Attrition and Genesis Point). Yet there's really little "choice" involved, because I almost invariably see people (myself when I solo, my guild when we short-man, and the rare Amrath pug I join) choose the same, quickest/easiest paths. Creating a variable-plot quest (much less an entire quest line or adventure pack) where every path is roughly as challenging as each other, is extremely difficult. IF it can be executed properly, I would absolutely love to see this happen. I'm guessing that Amrath was sort of a testing ground for this type of quest, and I don't know if they didn't like the response or what but it hasn't really happened since then.

And in terms of existing plot development... I am largely ambivalent. I'm more interested in game mechanics, character builds, and gear acquisition/optimization than "what happens after we invaded Shavarath," but I absolutely understand the need for new content in this regards. Before the thread got derailed, multiple devs responded to palyer interest in bringing devils back to the Marketplace, or doing something of similar ilk. Things like the Risia Ice Games, Festivult, Egg Hunt, and the uber-rare fairy-circle... er, ham-circle are all fine and dandy, but don't really make players feel that the game world has changed or advanced in any way. Some house areas have gotten overhauls in terms of looks and layout, but that hardly constitutes any kind of progressive "event." Perhaps instead of (or in conjunction with) "higher levels and more uber gear" -- which can result in unwanted power creep -- we could do well with more individual events.

[Vynnt]

The word 'endgame' just means, the late stages of the game. It also doesn't mean the game is finishable, it's just the end stage.

For me, it is high end raids. I'm all for new high end, non epic, quests and raids. An adventure pack like Amrath would be awesome.

I am, however, very opposed to increasing the level cap. What's the point? All it would do is delay the 'endgame'. Or worse, add more grind. Not to mention the fact that there are no quests to support an increased cap.

[Wrendd]

Like many people (I think), I see end-game content as what I do with my lvl 20 toons. Right now that is raiding and epics. I actually enjoy the epics, but that is mostly a reflection of the groups that I play with. I even do a fair amount of PUG raids and epics. While I do join the occasional train wreck most of the PUGs I do are quite fun. And to be honest I think you learn more about the game and the people you are playing with in a train wreck than you do in a perfectly executed zerg run. When the fit hits the shan you see how people react, how you can overcome a bad situation (or not) and many people come through their baptism by fire a much better player, one that is firmly on their way to being the go-to guy for tough missions.

I dearly hope that they do NOT increase the level cap. If that was done they would have to have a LOT of new lvl 21+ content, it would need to be fully fleshed out, interesting and the new loot would make an over abundance of overpowered items even worse.

What I would like to see is a new epic quest chain open to lvl 20s ONLY. Not a lvl 9 series that can also be done as epic, but something made specifically for epic content. I would imagine this content to have a different focus from the current quests, possibly tied in to the upcoming half-or and druid additions. Like a new "dark power" rising from deep in the forest of the half-orc homeland that needs to be dealt with.

They could have several lower level quests and such to allow everyone to enjoy it, and all the low level quests could advance the story, but the ultimate resolution of the story arc would be for the true heroes (epic) to complete. A more dynamic epic dragon (green dragon would be my choice because we have none of them so far) would be a lot of fun for me.

I enjoy the VoN series, but the last fight is a little lame IMO, she just sits there and breathes fire and bites at you, swinging her head from side to side. An epic version of the Sinvala fight might be interesting, or something like it. I am going to bring up WoW here, but only to mention the fight against Onyxia, which was quite interesting to me untill the formula for beating her was found. I do NOT want DDO to go to quite so rigid a "script" for a fight, but at least fighting Onyxia FELT like a dragon at first.

The other thing for my proposed new epic content is that the epic items there MUST feel like EPIC ITEMS. too much of the stuff in the last few packs were NOT epic-worthy. I understand that they have to be careful as to what they let items do... but I think that if the epic only quests are made to be the toughest in the game (and not just by adding an extra "0" to each mobs HP, require a wide range of skills to have an effect, make mobs have different ways to by their DR and such) then the items you could get from there should be VERY powerful within a limited scope.

[Wrendd]

Before anyone else points this out... I realize that in one part of my post I said that additional lvl 21+ content would add more overpowered items and then went on to advocate the addition of "the most powerful items in the game" for my proposed epic only missions. This can seem a little ADD of me.

My point was that the additional power provided by items above lvl 20 would be even more overpowered than the items we have now, and I think to make lvl 21+ content there would have to be A LOT of it. That is what I would object to. Adding in a select set of items to be the "most powerful" would be possible if kept limited in number. Posibly have items that are ONLY useable by specific PrCs (ie. Kensei any tier only, any Virtuoso), or possibly having items that are say... +6 Longsword but gain an additional +1 per rank of Kensei in addition to other effects. (I use this as only an example, not an actual item). That way anyone could use said item, but only the specific class the item was made for would get full benefit.

Another thought.. allow the new epic items to have a new type of slot in them specific to the new content. And have a wide selection of set specific bonuses on the gems you could slot in them. As I was writing out my above item suggestion I noticed MANY problems that would need to be addressed, but the first one was the matter of weapon selection. If you made a Great Axe with all the Kensei set bonuses you would have every Great Sword Kensei mad (and rightly so), so one possible solution is allowing the epic upgrade to be applied to any type of weapon you want.