The "Slippery Slope" Argument

[Sirea]

Waaaayyyy back when the DDO Store first came out (almost year ago now), people decried it as the Easy Button. You could buy stacks and stacks of potions in the middle of a quest, as well as spell components, ammo, shrines, xp/loot boosters. Some people speculated as to what else could come to the Store, and how far Turbine would be willing to go to make a buck. Others pooh-poohed them as being anti-Turbine, tin-foil-hat conspiracy theorists; how dare they question it if players are willing to buy the stuff? The money'll go towards developing new quests quicker, and that's what everyone wanted since we were just coming out of a year-long content drought. Besides, they were also quick to point out, what's it to you if people buy the stuff in the Store? It's not affecting *your* gameplay.

Since then we've gotten Teleport Rods, Bells of Opening, special hirelings that are superior to their in-game counterparts, 32-point builds, Veteran Status, buffs of just about every flavor in potion form, better Resurrection cakes in larger stacks, +2 Supreme Tomes, and, most recently, items that'll even block Beholder beams and mummy rot. Not to mention items that should have some way to be earned in-game, such as Lesser/Greater Reincarnation, Alignment change, and Astral Diamonds. It also seems that people are complaining more and more about the skill gap widening, and the vet-vs.-noob arguments get more and more volatile.

So I suppose my question is, do you believe in the "slippery slope"? Do you believe that Turbine has some sort of boundaries as to what they will definitely never sell in the Store? Or do you believe that eventually, we will see things like Shroud Shards and Epic Tokens and items that surpass raid gear up for sale to anyone willing to buy them? What would it take for them to sell in the Store for you to say "that's the last straw"?

For those who do not believe in the "slippery slope", what would it take (if anything) for you to become a believer? Would the fact that someone could purchase gear superior to that which you ground out for months honestly bother you at all? Would you stick to the line of "well if Turbine's making money, it's good for the game, so you should be grateful"?

I hope we are in for a good discussion

[theb]

For those who do not believe in the "slippery slope", what would it take (if anything) for you to become a believer?

I would believe in the slippery slope, except that if I did I'd have to think about other general principles describing Turbine's jumping the shark. I'm not prepared to do that, so I refuse to believe in applying the slippery slope argument at all.

[dunklezhan]

yes I do beleive in it, I think it will get worse, and my feelings are well documented in other threads. I can't be bothered to retype it all at this point, so I'll just say: they're already over the lip of the slope and are now gathering speed.

edit:

can't be bothered to type, but I'll link to my most recent thoughts on the subject (after the anti-mummy release) instead:
Thread:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=265471
Specific posts:
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...48&postcount=4 (though I note on this one I've said how much I've spent since game launch when of course I meant F2P launch)
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...18&postcount=6

[Elfvyra]

Hmmm... My last straw? +6 Supreme Tomes

[Sirea]

I suppose I shouldn't single out the DDO Store; there have also been quest nerfs, like the STK fire room trap box being moved, or the Tear of D shrines not being locked. There's those silly little signs littering up the cityscape advertising every single quest in the game. New characters now get every gear slot filled by the time they complete Korthos (or get off the Veteran Status boat), and the new lower level quest chains are offering gear that easily surpasses random drops by at least 5 levels.

[cpito]

It's definitely a slippery slope and many of the eventualities are already coming to be. Maybe not as far as gears and such go but take the recent discussion about Con as a dump stat. The poster advised that Toughness was a better choice over Con. When it was explained why that was bad advice especailly for end-game content, the poster got huffy and went on to clarify that this was advice for lower levels because you can always Reincarnate for later levels. The mindset was "there is no bad advice because there's a crutch to fall back on".

[Ystradmynach]

But quests getting easier or having more gear available is actually contradictory to the way to maximize the amount of money they get from the store from gear. Ideally, if quests were so hard that you would all but need to buy stuff from the store, then that is where a lot more people would buy from the store.

As it is, I'm not seeing anything from the store that is anything other than items of convenience, items whose equivalent couldn't be bought in the AH otherwise. It is the same thing as if you just happened to have another high level character who had alot of money to spend on a lowbie character.

I'm also not seeing anything particular overpowered on the newer quests. Hell I just bought the sentinels pack and the gear there is too build specific to even be useful to most characters. People are still going after greensteel items and even enduring the dragontouched lottery for their gear for the most part.

With that said, I think there probably at least a little power creep, that is just the nature of these types of games, and it is pretty easy to get people to buy new adventure packs if the gear outperforms old gear. As long as Turbine is aware of the pitfalls of powercreep and keeps it reigned in for the most part it shouldn't be a serious issue.

[kamimitsu]

I had thought at one time that the DDO store and/or nerfing might send me away. Now I realize the game is really just a excuse to BS and fart around with some pals with something akin to a 'purpose', and there really isn't any amount of nerfing or mucking about that will make me ragequit, since those things don't really affect me.

Though amusing, easy-buttoning is a non-issue. But when game mechanics that seem black and white don't work properly, mechanics which players have sacrificed (both in game and out) to build around, it pushes me one step closer to the door. The fact that successful Intimidates on Horoth don't always make him stay facing me really gets me angry. "Yes, I have a no-fail intimidate. No, I don't know why he is smacking your face in." The optimist in me, however, keeps thinking that those kinds of things will get fixed. The new rogue capstone easily bought another year of forgiveness from me.

The most likely thing to make me quit (and which from time to time makes the little angel on my shoulder nag at my conscience) is considering the amount of time this game takes away from doing constructive and self-improving activities. Then the little devil on my shoulder says, "Dude, like you would really do something constructive if you didn't play DDO." He's right, too. But some day I'll get a little will power and then I'll be gone. Don't expect it to last long, though!

[Vallin]

Store items are a convenience for the most part, and that is all. They do not elevate anyone's play to any appreciable degree. They sometimes save time, sometimes save grind - sometimes allow access to a chest that you wouldn't get otherwise - none of which is really significant.

If the store were an easy button we would see a lot more competence, probably.

Vallin.

[biggin]

I think the breaking point as far as the DDO store goes would be if they nerfed our stuff to make the DDO store stuff more attractive. For example, I have my GS weapons. If they sell stuff in the store to match it I could care less. However if they nerfed my GS so the store weapons were better, then yes I would move on. I'm of the camp that what other people do is their business, I don't care if they buy everything in the store and pike to 20, more power to them. If more money = more content, they can have at it, as long as it doesn't affect the game I've enjoyed playing all these years.

[Charlemagne2]

I don't see the store being the breaking point, if anything it allows casual players a way to TRY and keep up. Most of the reinc'd players are decked out with super twink gear that makes the low level content a joke! The casual players/wanna be hardcore can get very frustrated running with a guy who rolls through a quest like a lawn mower.
The cliff is a touch higher on higher levels quests where they run into more advanced mobs. This has lead to sometimes 8-9 guys dropping from group before completion in shroud.......Now thats a grind!

Honestly I try to give out goodies in the harbor whenever possible just to help kick start new players (note a stack of 100 cure serious pots will keep a new player moving along for days) and hey you are hopefully getting some postive karma. Which we all know allows +1 to loot.

My current recommendation for breaking out of a loot slump is to load up on pots, and those candy canes, then givem away in harbor.....resume looting of chests.

almost forgot: what in store sales would put me over top..........everything epic,tomes above +2, and ....thats about it let have all the bells of opening they can afford. Someone has to pay for all this new content.

[Junts]

No Soh, I will not climb your slippery slope.

[Illtemperedclavier]

Eventually we will be able to buy "unopened chest from <insert quest here>".

It will be like christmas every day until we get so sick of garbage loot they start puttin TP into chests so we can party wipe with it.

[Sirea]

But quests getting easier or having more gear available is actually contradictory to the way to maximize the amount of money they get from the store from gear. Ideally, if quests were so hard that you would all but need to buy stuff from the store, then that is where a lot more people would buy from the store.

Yea, that is another argument made by slippery-slopers, that eventually Turbine would start balancing quests with the expectation that people will have buy stuff out of the store to complete them. I'm relieved to see that this has not yet come to fruition.

I'm also not seeing anything particular overpowered on the newer quests.

I'm thinking specifically of the weapons offered in Sharn Syndicate, which are far better than anything lots of people had for years leveling up characters, and the Phiarlan Carnival which has stacking skill items and ridiculously low minimum levels on gear that would be at least be level 9+ in the random loot table. Which brings us to your point about power creep, which I agree with and many people have taken note of.

If the store were an easy button we would see a lot more competence, probably.

This seems a bit backwards, IMO.

No Soh, I will not climb your slippery slope.

"Hello, Doctor? Yes, I have this puppy that won't stop humping my leg, and I'd like to schedule a procedure, if I could. Bring him in today? Sure!"

[redoubt]

Store items are a convenience for the most part, and that is all. They do not elevate anyone's play to any appreciable degree. They sometimes save time, sometimes save grind - sometimes allow access to a chest that you wouldn't get otherwise - none of which is really significant.

If the store were an easy button we would see a lot more competence, probably.

Vallin.

+2 supreme tome is significant
+20% xp is significant if you are new. (you skip a lot of stuff you would learn from, I only mention this one due to your comment about more competence.)
SP pots are significant
32 pt characters

Those four things alone can allow a new player with cash to quickly rise to cap, have decent stats and still not have a clue... I think the store makes the game too easy for new players and does not force competence.

A long time ago, in a gal.. err... back in the first year you had to pick up every pot, and all the droped coins. You learned how to play a build well. You were cautious.

None of those things exist now. No, its not all the stores fault, but the store is a large part of it.

[theb]

I don't see the store being the breaking point, if anything it allows casual players a way to TRY and keep up.

Yeah, it really is terrible the way they force you to rune every quest on elite before running it on...what's that? They don't?

Oh. Well you have to admit the normal mode, which is designed for niche audiences such as people who played D&D or NWN and are experienced enough to jump into DDO, is just too hard for casual players. It's not like they have their own special difficulty setting just for them...wait, you're giving me that look again.

[krud]

items that'll even block Beholder beams...

they sell those??!! I gotta get me some!!!

What would it take for them to sell in the Store for you to say "that's the last straw"?

nothing they could sell would push me to that.

For those who do not believe in the "slippery slope", what would it take (if anything) for you to become a believer? Would the fact that someone could purchase gear superior to that which you ground out for months honestly bother you at all? Would you stick to the line of "well if Turbine's making money, it's good for the game, so you should be grateful"?

I don't tend to covet my neighbors possessions. They get what they get. Really it's only a matter of someone with time vs someone with money. If you got neither well, you're kinda screwed, but really i don't care which of the two you use to get your stuff... just don't gloat over it.

[Karavek]

Waaaayyyy back when the DDO Store first came out (almost year ago now), people decried it as the Easy Button. You could buy stacks and stacks of potions in the middle of a quest, as well as spell components, ammo, shrines, xp/loot boosters. Some people speculated as to what else could come to the Store, and how far Turbine would be willing to go to make a buck. Others pooh-poohed them as being anti-Turbine, tin-foil-hat conspiracy theorists; how dare they question it if players are willing to buy the stuff? The money'll go towards developing new quests quicker, and that's what everyone wanted since we were just coming out of a year-long content drought. Besides, they were also quick to point out, what's it to you if people buy the stuff in the Store? It's not affecting *your* gameplay.

Since then we've gotten Teleport Rods, Bells of Opening, special hirelings that are superior to their in-game counterparts, 32-point builds, Veteran Status, buffs of just about every flavor in potion form, better Resurrection cakes in larger stacks, +2 Supreme Tomes, and, most recently, items that'll even block Beholder beams and mummy rot. Not to mention items that should have some way to be earned in-game, such as Lesser/Greater Reincarnation, Alignment change, and Astral Diamonds. It also seems that people are complaining more and more about the skill gap widening, and the vet-vs.-noob arguments get more and more volatile.

So I suppose my question is, do you believe in the "slippery slope"? Do you believe that Turbine has some sort of boundaries as to what they will definitely never sell in the Store? Or do you believe that eventually, we will see things like Shroud Shards and Epic Tokens and items that surpass raid gear up for sale to anyone willing to buy them? What would it take for them to sell in the Store for you to say "that's the last straw"?

For those who do not believe in the "slippery slope", what would it take (if anything) for you to become a believer? Would the fact that someone could purchase gear superior to that which you ground out for months honestly bother you at all? Would you stick to the line of "well if Turbine's making money, it's good for the game, so you should be grateful"?

I hope we are in for a good discussion

In your entire post the only point you put out that I really see is that you think its wrong for there to be a viable alternative to as you put it "Months of grinding." Most of what you mention like potions and ammo I know no one who spends money on except those we say got Newb suckered by the store. As we all know ammo is one of those reasons to hit House D and earn favor asap.

Personally I look forwad to the day that even raids have a friendly solo casual mode to allow anyone to as you suggest they should have to, grind it out. But if someone strapped for time but not cash wants to drop it on buying a blank greensteel weapon and all the ingrediants to upgrade it into his ideal toy then I say add it to the store.

No matter what your complaints the proof is clear that the DDO store is working to support this game and help it grow at a pleasent steady pace. It has turned more casual because that is what pen and paper was about for alot of us. a great casual way spend time with friends for a few hours on a weekend after school or work.

Catering to the hard core mentality is what brought this game to the brink of ruin. the slope you worry over will eventually reach a nice smooth valley where we all can game in peace and harmony.

[Karavek]

+2 supreme tome is significant
+20% xp is significant if you are new. (you skip a lot of stuff you would learn from, I only mention this one due to your comment about more competence.)
SP pots are significant
32 pt characters

Those four things alone can allow a new player with cash to quickly rise to cap, have decent stats and still not have a clue... I think the store makes the game too easy for new players and does not force competence.

A long time ago, in a gal.. err... back in the first year you had to pick up every pot, and all the droped coins. You learned how to play a build well. You were cautious.

None of those things exist now. No, its not all the stores fault, but the store is a large part of it.

Ill I am reading here is you feel people are not reaching your standard for play skill fast enough or at an appropriate rate. Well no offense but its not your place to judge anyone else. If you dont want to team with them stick with known guildies. If you pug then you should be willing to tolerate any and all play styles as that is the price of playing with strangers.

Me I am more solo then ever as I grew bored with pugging and tired of working with elitist who cared only about the next grind session not on fun.

Yes new players can get a leg up that old vest had to work hard for thier first time. That is called closing the gap as its proving ever mor detrimental to MMO growth to cater to veterans who like to keep the new player down. By closing that gap quicker new players can integrate more smoothly with the old population allowing for more people to work with which was a big complaint for a long time.

If you have an issue with DDO store or inexperiance new players joina die hard perma death guild that bans all DDO store use.

[Karavek]

I think the breaking point as far as the DDO store goes would be if they nerfed our stuff to make the DDO store stuff more attractive. For example, I have my GS weapons. If they sell stuff in the store to match it I could care less. However if they nerfed my GS so the store weapons were better, then yes I would move on. I'm of the camp that what other people do is their business, I don't care if they buy everything in the store and pike to 20, more power to them. If more money = more content, they can have at it, as long as it doesn't affect the game I've enjoyed playing all these years.

I feel where your coming from and would never want to see superior to in game items for sale in the DDO store. However as far as GS weapons go I have long been of a mind they are much to powerful. many weapons found at a high lvl are no where near equal to those. and the handful of people who may still be out there who tooka dvantage of certain issues the game had at times and wear entire outfits of green steel items do represent a force that would amount to game breaking by any standard .

It is the power mainly of even a single well crafted GS item that the power of many mobs in high end content has to be so extreme and creates the jump in difficulty many commplain about.

So yes I dont want them making items stronger then anything in game store only, but no I dont really like the current power GS items possess. Thier power would be more appropriate on lvl 20 only epic content rewards imo.