Sword and Board Suggestion

[Joseph]

**UPDATED***

This post deals with two items - Armor Class and Damage, and then Damage Reduction and Feats.**

In DDO, few argue that Sword and Board (S&B) is outpaced by Two Handed Fighting (THF) and Two Weapon Fighting (TWF) styles, and no one argues that Damage Per Second (DPS) is superior to Armor Class (AC). This leaves S&B as situational at the best of times, and more often relegated to a 'flavor' choice, with many groups outright declining S&B users (particularly in high end elite and epic content).

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ARMOR CLASS AND DAMAGE
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Note: This entire premise is based on 'skill' - and not abilities (strength, dexterity, etc.). It is meant to represent learned ability and expertise applied equally across all classes based on the experience Base Attack Bonus (BAB) is intended to represent. I am on no way advocating adding any bonuses based on ability scores - that system is already in place and WAI to the best of my knowledge.

I would like to propose the following suggestion to help bring Sword and Board (S&B) more in line with other fighting styles, while allowing those other styles to maintain their individuality, flavor, and appeal.

Simply have all shields, regardless of type, give a bonus to Armor Class and Damage based on Base Attack Bonus (BAB) that is at least equal to the following (this would apply to active shield bashing as well):

(+AC/+DAMAGE)
BAB 05: +1/+0
BAB 10: +2/+1
BAB 15: +3/+2
BAB 20: +4/+3

The reasoning is that a shield in the hands of an experienced character will be used to greater defensive advantage, and also provide an increased opportunity for damage or counter attack from either the shield or weapon - as represented by the very minor increase to damage the numbers proposed above would generate.

For a comparison between the damage of GTWF vs. S&B, consider the numbers below (subject to the following assumptions):

• Assume the +DAMAGE of S&B is treated as additional damage - not base/seeker type damage
• Assume BAB 20
• Assume no Strength Bonus (strength bonuses apply equally to main hand damage, and only serve to increase off hand damage, further favoring the GTWF)
• Assume no feats, enhancements, racial modifiers, or any modified other than the BAB 20 comparison of the proposed S&B modification (i.e. one GTWF compared to one S&B)
• Assume Basic Khopesh - no Weapon Bonuses or Effects (5.4 per swing average damage including critical hits as per the compendium)
• Assume 100 attacks
• Assume GTWF

Khopesh average damage before critical multipliers is 1d8, which is 4.5, and after critical multipliers it is 5.4:

GTWF:
100 Main hand attacks (100*5.4) - 540 damage from main hand.
80 Off hand attacks (80*5.4) - 432 damage from off hand.
972 Raw Base Damage from GTWF

S&B:
100 Main Hand Attacks (100*5.4) - 540 damage from main hand.
100 Shield Attack Damage Bonuses (100*3) - 300 added damage.
840 Raw Base Damage from S&B

As expected TWF is still the clear leader - but by a small amount, and at the expense of the AC bonus that S&B gains.

However, this changes the instant any feat, stat, or weapon bonuses are added to the equation, as they add to the TWF off hand. To give the example of +5 strength damage bonus and +5 weapon damage bonus (total +10 damage per swing):

In this case, the Main Hand Khopesh average damage before critical multipliers is 1d8+10, which is 14.5, after critical multipliers it is 17.4; Off Hand Khopesh average damage before critical multipliers is 1d8+7.5, which is 12, after critical multipliers it is 14.4:

GTWF:
100 Main hand attacks (100*17.4) - 1,740 damage from main hand.
80 Off hand attacks (80*14.4) - 1,152 damage from off hand.
2,892 Raw Base Damage from GTWF

S&B:
100 Main Hand Attacks (100*17.4) - 1,740 damage from main hand.
100 Shield Attack Damage Bonuses (100*3) - 300 added damage.
2,040 Raw Base Damage from S&B

Factor in burst effects or increased threat range and the TWF pulls even farther ahead of the S&B due to off hand damage increases - yet the S&B is still able to do acceptable damage - benefiting from increased armor / ability to survive.

The armor class increase of 4 is insignificant to a BAB 20 character (it could actually be raised to an AC increase of 2 per level), but serves to add to the overall 'survivable' and thus 'desirable' aspect of a S&B character (aggro magnet, acceptable damage, great ability to survive and minimize resource consumption of the party).

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DAMAGE REDUCTION AND FEATS
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Stacking Damage Reduction (DR) has been an issue since the very beginning of DDO. For game balance purposes, the only real form of stacking damage reduction should come from shields (which should stack with anything).

All shields should offer Passive (not actively blocking) and Active (actively blocking) DR, as follows (this DR should stack with all other forms of DR):

(Passive DR/Active DR)

• Buckler: +0DR/+1DR
• Small Shield: +1DR/+1DR
• Heavy Shield: +1DR/+2DR
• Tower Shield: +2DR/+4DR

Shield feats should be modified as follows (this DR should also stack with all other forms of DR):
(Passive DR/Active DR)

• Shield Mastery: +1DR/+3DR
• Improved Shield Mastery: +1DR/+3DR (stacks with Shield Mastery)

The Improved Shield Bash feat with the bonuses, feat changes, and shield changes detailed herein, this feat becomes more effective.

It is my belief that these changes would be relatively simple to add to the game for the following reasons (benefits have already been outlined above):

• Stacking DR already exists in the game (when you press +SHIFT to block) - it should be fairly straightforward to add
• The suggested BAB shield bonuses I listed could be attached to the 'Shield Proficiency (General)' feat (requiring no real change to game play or character use)
• The suggested static shield bonuses could be easily updated (much like Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes were recently updated)

To those of you who have made it this far in reading, thank you for the time and effort, and thank you in advance for any comments or constructive criticisms.

[Vynnt]

Increasing AC based on BAB, okay, I guess it makes sense. Maybe 1 ac for every 3 to 5 BAB?

S&B still won't be effective in most of the game even with this change.

Adding damage to Primary Weapon, is a bad idea, IMO.
1. It doesn't make sense. How could you deal more damage with a shield in you hand than just a single handed weapon?

2. Finding a balance would be hard. Too much, (close to +0.5 str mod) would make S&B better than THF. Too little, and it won't help.

S&B isn't supposed to be a DPS. IMO, Shields are only mildly underpowered, the problem lies with the usefulness of DPS over AC and the ability to get both with DPS builds.

[Joseph]

Thanks for the input Vynnt.

I mentioned damage as well due to the fact that there is nothing accounting for the active nature of fighting with a shield (shield bash to the face followed by weapon hit, etc.) - but that in all cases a S&B should do less damage that THF or TWF. With that in mind, adding minimal damage per swing based on BAB allowed for a slight increase in damage, while not requiring an overhaul of the weapon system, or more changes (like the DA and BS 1H weapon glancing blow changes). I do agree that it is a slippery slope, and further that the damage would need to be minimal (hence my not posting ideas I had - as I wanted a discussion rather than a flame war about what implementation of the idea was best). Input like yours is what I was fishing for

Because THF gets such massive additions to damage that do not exist with S&B, and TWF gets multiple weapon hits and weapon effect hits, a minor increase to S&B damage based on having a shield equipped did not appear that it would overpower S&B - but rather bring it more in spec as a viable and accepted build choice.

It should be noted that these 'shield' bonuses are not limited to S&B players - they would assist anyone based on BAB when equipping a shield and turtling up - it is just that the S&B player would benefit more from them as it is more in line with their chosen playstyle.

The damage would also reflect 'skill' rather than physical prowess - thus applying equally across all BAB.

[Khimberlhyte]

There are more S&B improvement threads already than I will ever have time to read. They're getting almost as popular as battle cleric threads (although I see firewall nerfing climbing in popularity lately).

Someone has surely thought of this before, but in addition to an AC improvement, I'd like to see passive (stacking) DR just from holding a shield, not just active blocking. Not sure what the stats are on a shield, but the + bonus on the shield should be the passive DR, with double the + bonus when blocking (with some adjustment for shield size).

Given a choice of standing on a battlefield with arrows flying and glancing blows from all sides with (a) full plate and a tower shield, or (b) wearing pyjamas, I'd take the plate and shield, tyvm. The AC of pyjama-wearers in this game just doesn't make sense.

[Joseph]

I actually put that in the first write up of this post - shield stacking DR - but then I figured I did not want to side track the main part of the post too much <-- I'll add it in there with a credit to you.

[Pugsley]

S&B sucking is just a symptom of another problem. Treat the source: The bizzare Attack/AC scheme Turbine has cooked up that makes AC irrelevant.

[Cartor]

Ever noticed how a TWF player spins after the first two swings, in that spin, why not also allow a small bludgeoning attack from the sheild occur in a S&B player. It could help even the tables a bit, after all, your arm is already in that position, why not use it?
This could also be based on skill, why not use the Sheild Bash and Improved Sheild Bash to up that second hand damage?

[Scraap]

Simply have all shields give a bonus to Armor Class and Main Hand Damage based on Base Attack Bonus (BAB), regardless of class (this is no way would modify shield damage - only main hand damage).

The reasoning is that a shield in the hands of an experienced character will give more defense, and further it will increase the opportunity of an individual to increase main hand damage.

The easiest way to translate this to DDO is through it being a percentage of BAB (equally benefitting all characters according to their BAB - irrespective of class or race).

Not really sure on the bonus to damage, but on the AC point... what about taking the flanking code they've got in place already and doing the inverse for an AC boost? After all, if they're already taking the angles to see if there's and ac loss from getting flanked, all the elements are there (theoretically) to add an additional bonus from the shield to the angle you're facing?

[Joseph]

The flanking code is a good idea, but I am not sure how it would best be implemented.

Definitely rogues do not need anything else working against them - so having shield bonuses not count if the attack is from behind would definitely merit consideration.

Good suggestion

[Zachski]

...Actually, I have an idea. One that's already been suggested many times.

Make it so TWF affects S&B. That shield isn't just a piece of armor, it's a weapon.

Heck, you could even use the exact same animation XD

It'd still deal less damage than TWF Khopeshes, but at least it's contributing.

[Scraap]

The flanking code is a good idea, but I am not sure how it would best be implemented.

Definitely rogues do not need anything else working against them - so having shield bonuses not count if the attack is from behind would definitely merit consideration.

Good suggestion

well, programming wise, for simplicities sake, I'd just say something along the lines of

If (!determineFlanked()) toAttack = toAttack-determineSheildBonus();

where determineFlanked is a boolean on whatever the angle is they use for that, and where determineSheildBonus() operates off the following:
no shield feats: -3
Shield Mastery: -6
Improved Shield Mastery: -9
That would correspond to doubling a +5 tower shield's defense based on feat+angle, for a total of +18 effective AC when used correctly.

[Ranmaru2]

S&B sucking is just a symptom of another problem. Treat the source: The bizzare Attack/AC scheme Turbine has cooked up that makes AC irrelevant.

Besides the obvious falsity of this statement/premise...

I would say that if you want to treat that source, then the grazing hit capabilities of enemy rolls needs to be retooled, as well as all the different stacking bonuses we have in this game.

This idea actually makes some sense from a live, realistic fighting kind of standpoint. Think of 300 where they have the slow motion scene of Leonidas (SP?) fighting across the battlefield. The shield is an extended weapon for both dodging and bashing all at the same time while he uses the short spear in the other as you would expect from any S&B character. Just look at the first Blue Knight you fight in Demon's Souls who runs up and uses his shield to bash you in the face and then follows it up with a stab.

We don't actually have this aspect in the game right now and I think that the idea is great, but the numbers shouldn't start until BAB 15/+1 and then BAB 20/+2 to give it a little more balance as its the old offense as better defense and vice versa argument. You go for more damage mitigation with a shield as well as using the shield as a weapon (I doubt this wouldn't be an out of question attack request by any DM in a PnP game) while retaining some sort of defensive bonus if you have the feat. If they could retool it to where this is an additional bonus from the Shield Mastery/Improved Shield Mastery feats, then it would give them some better utility.

However the Damage Reduction part should only apply to active DR from blocking rather than passive DR, as that would kind of make part of the Stalwart Defender PrE inferior.

[AZgreentea]

I still like the idea of the chance to proc a shield bash. There are shields that have aditional damage types (thorn shield comes to mind) and it would be much more like a real fight.

Real soldiers who fight with a sword and shield use their shield in the fight all the time. They use it to not only push the enemy away but you can easily knock an enemy off balance if done correctly.

I have been reading some Eberron books lately, and those characters use their shields in combat. If anything DDO seems more like the books than it does PnP, so it wouldnt be strange to me at all if you could proc a shield bash just like you do an offhand strike.

You could integrate it into shield mastery the same way you do TWF. The higher your shield mastery, the greater the chance to proc. As a fighter, taking the extra feats would not be a big deal at all.

[sweez]

The armor class increase of 4 is insignificant to a BAB 20 character

Yeah, must be why people are grinding for Chattering Rings and +4 insight bonus on their DT.

[sweez]

Someone has surely thought of this before, but in addition to an AC improvement, I'd like to see passive (stacking) DR just from holding a shield, not just active blocking.

There's a fighter enhancement line that does exactly that.

[Joseph]

Yeah, must be why people are grinding for Chattering Rings and +4 insight bonus on their DT.

What you are trying to say is... actually lost to me (this could be due to the total absence of 'constructive' in your criticism).

I could assume you are saying the extra AC was important because some players grind for chattering rings, but then I could also assume it isn't important because far more people do not grind for chattering rings. As for the +4 AC to DT - yes many people grind for it (because they were going to put what else in that slot as a level 20 twinked out green steel melee build?).

That said, in the grand scheme of things, a +4 to AC translates to less than a ten percent AC bonus on any character even attempting to gain AC (and that is at level 20 - when the overwhelming majority of players agree that AC is more or less meaningless unless you are in the very top bracket).

Can I safely assume you are suggesting the bonus should be smaller - or do you mean it should not be there at all?

Good thing I'm not Rain Man. You might have just sent me over the edge

[Joseph]

There's a fighter enhancement line that does exactly that.

Common theme today, 'constructive' and 'clarity'. Hmm...

Stalwart Defender I DR2/- (funny, I don't see where it stacks)

DR4/- (still not stacking)

Did I miss on my stalwart defender all this time that my DR is stacking, as Khimberlhyte suggested - or is it just purely passive (which I seem to recall it being - Stalwart defender and Adamantine FP did not give me DR5/-)

Anyway - I would negative rep you, but it seems I just don't have enough reputation to do that *sigh*

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