Is it possible to playa successfull wizard without ressorting to wall of flame ?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I have a Wiz19 and a Sor18. Neither one are nukers.

The Wizard does not have any enhancements for damage. But has Empower and Maximise spell feats. Wizards get a lot of spell feats. And I thik they are good feats to take at some point.

The Sorc is totally CC based, and does not have Empower or Maximise. Yet has spent a lot of AP on Fire/Ice damage enhancements....mostly because there was nothing else to spend them on.

On the Sorc, I did not want to take Firewall. Yet it is just too good a spell to pass up.


Both chars prefer to not use it. It draws too much agro.
CC spells are my prefered spells to cast. A controlled crowd cannot hurt me.

But rednamed bosses leave you litle choice but to burn them down.

Firewall is by far the most efficient spell to use to damage things.

Both my chars, despite not being specced for nuking, can still throw down a mean firewall when needed. And can still do so many other things as well.

It is just too good a spell to pass up.
IMO, you need to carry it. Even if you do not plan to use it.

Evaluate each situation. And when it makes sense to do so, throw it down.
I don't typically use it for trash mobs. But for end fights I quite often fill a room with fire. Not because I want to. But because it is the best thing I can do at the time.

Sometimes you can't play your char the way you want to.
Sometimes you get preasuured by other players to play your char a certain way.
Sometimes the dungeon/monsters make one tactic superior and others inferior or useless.

So come prepared to adapt.

Play the way you want most of the time. But be prepared to play another way at times too.

Either when needed, asked, or when it just makes sense to do so.

[IKerensky]

What does Empower and Maximise bring to a CC ? does it affect any of the control spells ?

[vVAnjilaVv]

Wall of Fire is simply to powerful not to use. It would be like a cleric that never uses BB. Even in Amarath Wall of Fire is still extremely useful.

While u by no means have to rely on it, I would not ignore it.

[IKerensky]

So here is the build I planned, considering the comments.

I am not yet very satisfied with the Feats and Enhancement Order... any comment welcome. To be noticed this character is made using no extra goodies like books and such.

The Rogue skills are quite high anyway so I think they will be high enough for my need.

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Pactadriel Mithril Hurlant
Level 20 Chaotic Neutral Drow Male
(2 Rogue \ 18 Wizard) 
Hit Points: 166
Spell Points: 1573 
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 7
Reflex: 18
Will: 11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             10                    10
Dexterity            10                    10
Constitution         12                    12
Intelligence         20                    28
Wisdom               10                    10
Charisma             12                    12

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               4                     4
Bluff                 1                     1
Concentration         1                    25
Diplomacy             5                     5
Disable Device        9                    33
Haggle                5                    16
Heal                  0                     0
Hide                  4                     4
Intimidate            1                     1
Jump                  4                     4
Listen                2                     4
Move Silently         4                     4
Open Lock             4                    24
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                6                    26
Search                9                    32
Spot                  4                     6
Swim                  1                     1
Tumble                4                     4
Use Magic Device      5                     8

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Search I


Level 2 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Fluidity I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I


Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I


Level 4 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Energy I


Level 5 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Energy Manipulation II


Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Augment Summoning
Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Wizard Concentration I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Energy I
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II


Level 7 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II


Level 8 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Heightening I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Energy II


Level 9 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
Enhancement: Wizard Energy Manipulation III


Level 10 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration II


Level 11 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III


Level 12 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III


Level 13 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Energy II


Level 14 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Energy Manipulation IV


Level 15 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Heightening II


Level 16 (Wizard)


Level 17 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Improved Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration III


Level 18 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Enchantment
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Energy III
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Energy III


Level 19 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar IV


Level 20 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Elven Perception I
Enhancement: Elven Perception II
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I

[Kinerd]

Could you name of few of these traps? I can't recall any...

At level 6 or below, any of the traps at the end of the Tangleroot chain on hard or elite, or the end of the main Delera's chain on hard or elite, or etc. Without using skills boost and other enhancements, my rogue couldn't manage it.

A wiz will get 5 int on stat at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th level. Wiz can get 2 more from enhancements. Most wiz will start his Int at 18 or 20 depending on race while most rogues may start theres at 10-14ish depending on build. That alone will get you to about a 10-16 point dif in int for a 5-8 point difference in int based skills.

I figured on the 5 at-level increases. I think you overstate how low rogues will put Int, but my main reason for responding is when you say "That alone". Did you have further discrepancies in mind?

So here is the build I planned, considering the comments.

I recommend you get to 14 Con (perhaps by dropping Cha and/or Wis) and drop Improved Mental Toughness.

[IKerensky]

Hum, the only thing the Wiz/Rog lack in skills rating is the enhancement the pure rogue have.

Especially a Mechanic Rogue; I am unsure an Acrobat or Assassin rogue would have a higher final skill rating than a Wiz/Rog. It is clear the Mechanic will be above the Wizard by about 8-4 points with maxed enhancement and skill boost. But I am fairly certain than Acrobat/Assassin will have score in the same range than the Wizard if not lower (less INT, less enhancement points avaliable to max Disarm/Open/Skill Boost).

About my build, yep the Abilities aren't so great and I need to check them again to be sure (not certain of the 12 CHA). But a 14 CON is just too costly for a first run Drow character. Perhaps in 1 TR or 2... (14 CON mean a cost of 6 pts, and I hate having score at 8).

I understand dropping IMT, even if I have not so many SP avaliable (and not a large funding for potion/clickable), especially if I ressort to Heighten a lot. I think I should have taken Heighten at level 3 thus I wouldn't have been so much hindered with having level 1 spells against level 3 mobs.

What would you take instead of IMT ? Toughness ? Quicken Spell ? Maximise dont sound so interesting as I dont concentrate on damage dealing but could be nice for thoses times I do want to do them...

Could be important to know that I duo with a pure Cleric with Undead Turning speciality so I dont fear that much Undead (i.e. not controllable) opposition.

[Kinerd]

Starting in reverse, wizards do have access to spells that can directly control undead: Command Undead for charming or Halt Undead for hypno-effect. I don't think it's been mentioned in this thread yet, but Wall of Fire does double damage to undead. Even CC-specialized wizards can tear through most undead very easily, the exception being Blackbones and other fire-immune undead.

Heighten only brings your spell level to the highest you can cast - at level 3 for a wizard this would be level 2, or a difference of 1 on the DC for a heightened level 1 spell. I think you would have better luck trying a spell with a different save: if Web (reflex) doesn't work, Hypnotism (will) might have a better chance.

Considering IMT is in your 17th level slot, I wouldn't worry about what you're going to put there now. I would play your character to that point and see what you would get use out of. That said, I am reasonably sure that it will not be IMT.

[oweieie]

BUT, you sacrifice NOTHING, to be able to dish out mean firewalls. While you have all the mobs held/stunned/disabled, why not toss out some serious DPS over them?

Actually you sacrifice a ton of enhancement points speccing fire, fire crit and fire crit rate plus have to take maximize and empower. Putting out a mean firewall takes a lot. Mostly you get to use those resources for other spells than just firewall but if you're focusing on JUST CC then also putting out a decent firewall will cost you feats you might have instead put into conjuration focus for web, enhancements you might have put in to reduce the cost of extend etc.

[vVAnjilaVv]

I would strongly suggest taking both Mental Toughness feats if u plan on forgoing using Wall of Fire or damage spells in general, especially if you solo, you will probably use a lot more SP if you have no way to kill things quickly.

Enlarge and both Spell Pen. feats are also highly advisable.

[Phidius]

At level 6 or below, any of the traps at the end of the Tangleroot chain on hard or elite, or the end of the main Delera's chain on hard or elite, or etc. Without using skills boost and other enhancements, my rogue couldn't manage it.

Hmmm - I don't know what the DC on those traps are, but never had any problem hitting them with an at-level Wiz/Rog, even on a new server with limited resources.

[Dunfalach]

Starting in reverse, wizards do have access to spells that can directly control undead: Command Undead for charming or Halt Undead for hypno-effect. I don't think it's been mentioned in this thread yet, but Wall of Fire does double damage to undead. Even CC-specialized wizards can tear through most undead very easily, the exception being Blackbones and other fire-immune undead.

This. Even when running with a turn undead cleric, you will want to have control undead around in any undead-heavy quest. Turn undead doesn't always work.

[lacrimosa666]

You can also have alot of fun with Dreamspitter and holdperson/holdmonster, especially on epic very handy... Autocrit when held and suck the levels out of the mobs, enjoy the sound effects too

[LordMond]

I think I'd have to subdivide CC into two areas: Charm and Mesmerize (Hold, Hypnotism, etc.).

Most fights do not last long enough for the second type of CC to be a major factor. Toss in the fact that it is so rarely utilized that most players won't pay any attention to the immobilization effect surrounding the mobs and will break Mezz repeatedly and I question whether it would be worth it to specialize in this type of CC. I'm not saying that it cannot potentially be a huge asset, I merely observe that many, if not most, players aren't conditioned to take advantage of it.

Charms, on the other hand, have an immediate and tangilbe result: the mobs now help you out, dishing out damage and, more importantly, taking damage that your party might otherwise be taking. Most players appreciate that (though a few get ill if you forget to put Dismiss Charm on your hotbar so you can break the effect). I love charming an enemy spellcaster and have him drop Flamestrikes and the like on his former friends.

If you're going to forego the use of Wall of Fire, you've got to be prepared for the more narrow-minded players out there to give you HUGE amounts of grief for taking the road less travelled. They think that a Wizard's sole purpose for being is to spam WoF and Haste and that any other use of spell points by a Wizzie means that you have no idea how to play your class. If you can deal with the ****, go for it.

[Tarzhay]

[QUOTE=Adarro;3220847]
"Summons - I've always been a fan of summons and pets in general, but I wouldn't do any real 'investing' in them per se. (i.e. I probably wouldn't burn a feat on augmented summoning etc if I was planning on grouping for raids mostly)."


I have found out that Feat="augment summoning" affects charmed monsters as well. maybe this is a bug but I'm using it to my advantage when playing solo.

[Seneca_Windforge]

At level 6 or below, any of the traps at the end of the Tangleroot chain on hard or elite, or the end of the main Delera's chain on hard or elite, or etc. Without using skills boost and other enhancements, my rogue couldn't manage it.I figured on the 5 at-level increases. I think you overstate how low rogues will put Int, but my main reason for responding is when you say "That alone". Did you have further discrepancies in mind?I recommend you get to 14 Con (perhaps by dropping Cha and/or Wis) and drop Improved Mental Toughness.

Unless you are a drow rogue, there isn't much reason to go from 14 to 16 Int (and certainly no reason to go 18...ouch). Sure, you get +1 to your assassinate DC and Search/Disable, but that also increases the cost from 6 points to 10 points. Rogues need too many other things -- Str, Dex, Con, Cha -- to really be able to afford that.

A Rog2/WizX build is probably only going to be beaten in trap skills by a rogue who gimps themselves by investing too heavily in trap feats/enhancements.

[Dunfalach]

[QUOTE=Tarzhay;3248233]

"Summons - I've always been a fan of summons and pets in general, but I wouldn't do any real 'investing' in them per se. (i.e. I probably wouldn't burn a feat on augmented summoning etc if I was planning on grouping for raids mostly)."


I have found out that Feat="augment summoning" affects charmed monsters as well. maybe this is a bug but I'm using it to my advantage when playing solo.

It affects summons, charms, and hirelings also. Augmented Byron the level 1 barbarian is a beast in Korthos :> It's optional for most wizards, but pretty much required if you're going Pale Master and plan to use the skelly summons.

[Maegin]

Generally speaking....no.

maybe in U7 with archmage, but untill then.

Wall of Fire* btw.

[Breez_nh]

Hi,

1- What kind of meta-magic feats are best for this build ? I though of the duration boost.

You should have heighten and extend. As a rogue/wiz, your dcs will not be optimal so you will need to know how to target the enemies weakest start. Ofc, DC does not matter to Ottos irresistible.

2- If I concentrate on protective/boost/summons and of course Charms and Hold spells will I still be a valid addition to a party ?

Do not forget web/discos/f2S/fod etc. Yes, you will be a valuable addition to the party.

Should I still take damage adding enhancement ? What enhancement should I concentrate on ?

Take all spell penetration, Fire/cold damage amplification.

3- Should I try to get Palemaster or can I forget about it ?

Wait for archmage, it just cannot be as bad as Palemaster.

I am playing a Drow.

My sympathies

[Dunfalach]

Wait for archmage, it just cannot be as bad as Palemaster.

If you do go pale master (which I did) and plan to concentrate on charms and summons, Augment Summons becomes very useful. Summoned skeletons do not count against your one summon monster at a time limit, so you can bring in both a summoned monster and a summoned skeleton at the same time. With two summons plus charms and possibly hirelings, I think Augment summons is a better investment than it is for a wiz that isn't pale master and doesn't plan to charm much.

[Clay]

Why not make it a WF and be self healing?