A review of Past life feats and the TR system

[sirgog]

That is the worst possible example. There is so much overhealing on Horoth that 15% healing amp isn't even noticeable on a base 100% character, it's only really useful if you have a warforged and no healer's friend. It's when you're soloing or getting small heals (monk heals, curse of healing, positive aura) where overhealing isn't rampant that the 15% can be really helpful.

Assuming one divine and one arcane healer, the difference between a 0 mana pot, smooth normal ToD+suulo and a 5-10 mana pot one is the healing amp of the Horoth tank.

A tank with Leviks and Human Improved Recovery 3 is *always* a smooth run, even if DPS is terrible, as (outside of a Disintegrate failed save) they can be healed from nothing but scrolls, letting you use your Heal cooldowns and SP to prevent party members dying to trash. I'm happy to soloheal a ToD like that if an arcane will babysit the Suulo tank, and the best ToD tank I've ever run with (and although he's not a member, he's our guild's first choice on the server for Elite towers) is an only moderately geared human barb (no Bloodstone, only one Shroud accessory) with ~71% total healing amp (10/20 on DT, 30 from Human racial enhancements).

A tank with no healing amp cannot be healed, even on Normal, with just one healer's scrolls (the scrolls just keep pace with the badges), so even an exhausted Horoth will require SP and Heal cooldowns to be spent on the tank.

Of course some of that healing is overhealing - but if you have a tank that's at 470 of 690hp, would you rather your scroll hit them for 132 or 264? Or if they are at 200 of 690hp, would you rather your Heal hit them for 285 (leaving them still at risk of instant Disintegrate death on Horoth), or for 570?

In both cases, give me the overhealing any day of the week. And as for past life passives, give me a tank with something that makes a real difference in the Horoth encounter - 5-15% healing amp - over one that has 1-3 extra damage per hit, which in a three minute fight equates to 420-1260 damage - 0.21-0.63% of Horoth's hitpoints on Normal, and 0.12-0.36% of the combined HP of Horoth and Suulo - shaving, in the best case, about 0.5 seconds off your completion time.

[Junts]

They do not. If a barbarian gets all the past lives, and a fighter gets all the past lives, then they are both exactly at the same point as they were before either TRd. Both still have the same number of feat slots, and both now have the choice of 11 more feats.

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but it sounds like you are suggesting that adding any new feats to the game (wether with a TR prereq, or just through normal development) is a bad thing because it favors (as an example) fighters over barbs/paladins/rangers.

What hes saying is that tring a lot back to wiz or fighter is way better than to say sorc or paladin. a sorc may have to drop greater spellpen to take past life: wizard (gaining the 1 dc, but not gaining the spell pen at all), whereas the wizard will drop some utter garbage feat he didnt want to take anyway.

Stuff like sneak of shadows or the paladin past life (6m of 3/3 per shrine is great) are awesome, but no one who isn't a fighter as a melee will ever be able to fit them in. Most melee types without a significant splash into fighter or monk barely have enough room to take their thf/twf line + ic + pa + toughness (6 required feats, when nonhumans are getting 7 and humans 8 ..). If your build or class has other needed feats, you're quickly unable to afford to actaully take a chosen pastlife feat, and honestly there are many that are useful or good.

However, fighters and wizards in particular have great access to them, and therefore have more benefit from multiple trs into multiple classes, whereas the sorc tr may want to do wizardx3 instead of having some actaul diversity or the like, becuase he couldn't actually choose anyone else's pastlife anyway. The fighter can gladly add some healing amp becuase it also provide s him with a new dps buff. The tempest ranger cannot afford to take that feat, so all he gains is healing amp for being a pl: paladin. This is a bias in the system. If your 34th life chooses to be one of those classes, you can gain much more for your character from all your trs (due to ahving access to many casting or dps-boosting feats) than you would be as an alternative melee or casting class.

It means that people who's ultimate goal isn't a fighter or wizard or monk have a lot less incentive to go completionist, as completionist alone is probably the only feat they could afford, and at most one more: whereas a fighter or monk might take 3-4 of them. Its a greater net improvement to their characters.

[Angelus_dead]

They do not. If a barbarian gets all the past lives, and a fighter gets all the past lives, then they are both exactly at the same point as they were before either TRd. Both still have the same number of feat slots, and both now have the choice of 11 more feats.

That is illogical. As just explained, the character class that has more free feat slots benefits more from an expanded list of useful feats. A barb20 is already using all his feats on really important things, while a fighter20 has a few feats that he's put to silly use like shield blocking, cleave, throwing accurate or ranged damage.

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but it sounds like you are suggesting that adding any new feats to the game (wether with a TR prereq, or just through normal development) is a bad thing because it favors (as an example) fighters over barbs/paladins/rangers.

I didn't say that. I've always been in favor of adding more good feats so that Fighters will care about having to choose between multiple good things, which would raise the power of Fighter and Wizard classes overall.

As just explicitly stated, what's bad is making the increased power of the bonus feat slots contingent upon the character being a TR. Fighters should have something good to place in those slots without needing to TR to get there.

[PopeJual]

As just explicitly stated, what's bad is making the increased power of the bonus feat slots contingent upon the character being a TR. Fighters should have something good to place in those slots without needing to TR to get there.

All of the suggestions that Lithic/Star made were about improving the passive Past Life feats - the ones that a Fighter, Barbarian, Wizard and Sorcerer all get for free in addition to the feats that they can choose to take as they level.

It's possible that powering up some feats might unbalance Ftr and Wizard (although I don't believe that it would), but powering up the passive feats certainly wouldn't.

[Sweyn]

Your numbers are off. It would be 1.15 base*1.1*1.2*1.3=197% healing amp. Having it apply additively only helps below 100% base.

Ahh ok, well that only means you would be getting even more from the past life no?

[Lithic]

It means that people who's ultimate goal isn't a fighter or wizard or monk have a lot less incentive to go completionist, as completionist alone is probably the only feat they could afford, and at most one more: whereas a fighter or monk might take 3-4 of them. Its a greater net improvement to their characters.

Ok I see what you mean, but really few builds would ever take more than 1 or 2 feats from the non-free past life list anyway. My most recent incarnation is a fighter/rogue/pally with lots of feats to spare, but the only tempting one (other than completionist) was the paladin one for +3 to hit/damage for a few mins per shrine.

Anyway, classes without feats to spare would be at the same disadvantage if turbine just picked 12 new (and actually usefull) feats from the complete warriors handbook and put them in the game.

[Lithic]

As just explicitly stated, what's bad is making the increased power of the bonus feat slots contingent upon the character being a TR. Fighters should have something good to place in those slots without needing to TR to get there.

That has nothing to do with TRing and has to do with lack of influx of decent feats in the general list. Getting more choices for fighters is not a bad thing, even if those choices come with prereqs. Ideally though fighters would have a few dozen more decent options in the non-TR feat list.

[Junts]

Ok I see what you mean, but really few builds would ever take more than 1 or 2 feats from the non-free past life list anyway. My most recent incarnation is a fighter/rogue/pally with lots of feats to spare, but the only tempting one (other than completionist) was the paladin one for +3 to hit/damage for a few mins per shrine.

Anyway, classes without feats to spare would be at the same disadvantage if turbine just picked 12 new (and actually usefull) feats from the complete warriors handbook and put them in the game.

Then you are massively underrating the goodness of sneak of shadows (3 min of +5 to hit and +10 damgae on sneak attacks is more dps than the paladin one, and more to hit too), or the fighter one (hugely beneficial to ac based defender-pres), among others.

It would be quite easy for a defender-build with /2 rogue to want all 3 of those feats, which the paladin can't do and the fighter can.

The problem with that isn't that it helps fighters more: it means that I, as a primarily paladin melee player (as you can see, my two main melees are paladins), have far less incentive to TR than my fighter guildmates, because they can drop fairly bad feats from their last 2-3 feat slots and upgrade to past lives, whereas I couldn't even fit in past life: fighter on my tank, much less also completionist. This compounds the not-saving-tomes problem: I already won't tr that build because he has all +3 and +4 tomes, and would lose a tremendous amount of statistics from the 36 pt 'upgrade', but on top of that I'd have zero room for a chosen feat .. so its a net loss in almost every single way for me to TR. As the main character of an established, hardcore endgame raiding character optimizer, I should never be in a position where I say 'my 32 pt build would get far worse tring twice to 36'. I am, however, in that position.

This means that tring past the expansion to 36 and the best pastlife feat for you is something that is disproportionately good for people going back to certain classes than others. Most tr players are NOT like you: they have an eventual character destination in mind, often the one they started from and have the gear for already. They're not just tring endlessly to try a dozen different builds. Most players who are like that don't have the money/resources in game to fund multiple TRs and the twink items to make it easy, becuase they've been spam rerolling for years.

[Marcus-Hawkeye]

What about additional past life passive and active feats? I'm thinking adding past life feats based on race and perhaps even gender.

Just spitballing here but say male gets +5 HP per past life, each female gets +5 SP per past life.

Say Dwarf past life passive is... I dunno.. +1 Fort save(stacks 3 times) and active feat is... say +1 to axe damage?
Halfling passive +1 Reflex, active +1 to thrown weapon attack...
etc

[Junts]

What about additional past life passive and active feats? I'm thinking adding past life feats based on race and perhaps even gender.

Just spitballing here but say male gets +5 HP per past life, each female gets +5 SP per past life.

Say Dwarf past life passive is... I dunno.. +1 Fort save(stacks 3 times) and active feat is... say +1 to axe damage?
Halfling passive +1 Reflex, active +1 to thrown weapon attack...
etc

sex-based past life is pretty ******** when you can't change sex during tr.

[Marcus-Hawkeye]

sex-based past life is pretty ******** when you can't change sex during tr.

HA... fair enough... shows how much I was paying attention during my TR...

[oweieie]

Assuming one divine and one arcane healer, the difference between a 0 mana pot, smooth normal ToD+suulo and a 5-10 mana pot one is the healing amp of the Horoth tank.

A difference of 15% healing amp on a fleshie is not going to save you 10 mana pots or even 5 even before they broke Horoth and turned him into a punching bag.

[bartosy]

If any past life feats have to be revamped its the bard one cause quite honestly the +1 to bardic music is junk or anything unless you tr into a bard .. the enchantment active feat is **** for anything unless you roll into a bard again.. and the +2 save vs enchanment spells is something anyone can use but its by far not as valuable as a +1 dc to all your combat skills atk skills or +5 healing amp..

basicly youre forced to tr into a bard again or be stuck with junk passive feats.

[sirgog]

A difference of 15% healing amp on a fleshie is not going to save you 10 mana pots or even 5 even before they broke Horoth and turned him into a punching bag.

Oh yes it does. (I'm assuming the non-bugged Horoth)

High healing amp - 1 heal scroll per 6 seconds on tank, use the very mana-efficient Heal spell, quickened, for uninterruptable emergency raidheals to prevent deaths. Almost no mana expenditure.

Low healing amp - 1 heal *spell* (usually non-quickened) per 6-8 seconds on tank, as this keeps Heal on cooldown, you are forced to use maximized, empowered Mass Cures (or single-target cures) on party members that need urgent healing (scrolls work for non-urgent patchups). As your emergency heals are not quickened, deaths are more likely. Overall - high mana expenditure.

In a typical 2 healer ToD group (not the optimal group IMO, but what most PUGs run with), if there was a hypothetical feat the main threat tank could take that doubled their personal damage output but cut their incoming healing by 30%, I would prefer a Horoth tank *did not take it* as runs would be smoother and cheaper with them being easier to heal.

[redoubt]

Cleric: +1 conjuration DC, +1 turn/day, +2 turn levels.
This is a great past life for a caster or healer class as it affects comet fall and web. Clerics especially get good use out of the extra turn for rad servant, or DVs. Unfortunately, any build without conjuration spells wont get any use from this past life. Adding a +1 will save (and maybe dropping the turn stuff?) would make this much more valuable for non-casters.

I'll continue reading, but I want to pause here a moment. Leave the turn stuff in. I know there are very few of us true turn spec clerics out there, but to that few, the +2 turn levels is of great importance. In fact, it is the only reason I did the first TR on my cleric and is the reason I'm planning to do it again.

Sure, I'm prolly crazy, but I like my little niche.

[Bodic]

seriously so you want to see people grind to get perfect starting stats or something. I dont know a PnP DM that has ever seen a single start stat of perfect rolls. If it has ever happend legitimately that is some serious luck that is 18 d6 6's you video/post it and do it for real then I might sign.

[Bloodhaven]

DDO you are no match for your players math skills!

Warning: Playing with all those different dice while growing up will give +8 to initiative and +20 to all math related skill checks!

Oh and

[Cetus]

because they can drop fairly bad feats from their last 2-3 feat slots and upgrade to past lives

I disagree entirely. There are no "useless" feats for all 18 feats that a fighter takes if you kow what you are doing with him. For example, I built my fighter, and am going completionist as well, for maximizing dps. I use him to main tank all the time and those feats enable me to maximize my damage ouput and stack up on toughnesses to compare with the barbarians huge hitpoint pool. Every class feat is either each of 3 weapon focci, quick draw, first two tiers of THF, improved critical, PA, combat feat, etc.. none of them are wasted.

What would a fighters hitpoints, whose built for max DPS- which I believe is unanimously agreed to compete for the top spots currently in the game, look like with barely any toughness feats? In fact, I have to meticulously review and do homework if I even choose to pick something over a toughness feat- simply because I can't afford to lose base hitpoints. The pally past life feat will be the only one that I'll be taking. 2 minutes and 12 seconds of +3 to hit/damage each clicky, with 3 of them at your disposal is 6 and a half minutes of +3 to hit and damage. The rogue one is fantastic, but I expect to always have aggro so its use will be miniscule for me personally.

But to get back on topic, I couldn't have been able to compile a better list than star has. I agree with most of what he has suggested, including making the completionist feat free.

It wouldn't be that overpowered at all to make it free since I'm assuming it'll just be a toughness feat that most builds will switch out for it, so they just lose 2 hp (since you are gaining back 2 con). A continuum of passive feats unlock it, so it should be passive as well imo (especially if you have to grind out 4.4 million xp 9 times after satisfying the non-tr and tr1 xp pools).

I also agree that 5% is a bit underpowered as a passive feat. 15% might be a bit overpowered- but I'd say 10% would be a fair compromise. Should be equal to an enhancement, just as the +1 to damage form the monk, or the +2 spell pen from a wizzy is. Seriously, TR'ing 3 times to earn 30% healing amp is a fair deal. It gives that extra edge over a non TR, but doesn't sky rocket you up the power ladder either.

[khaldan]

I also agree that 5% is a bit underpowered as a passive feat. 15% might be a bit overpowered- but I'd say 10% would be a fair compromise. Should be equal to an enhancement, just as the +1 to damage form the monk, or the +2 spell pen from a wizzy is. Seriously, TR'ing 3 times to earn 30% healing amp is a fair deal. It gives that extra edge over a non TR, but doesn't sky rocket you up the power ladder either.

Going back to solar phoenix, 4.01*1.1*1.1*1.1 is a lot more than you think it is(530-540% healing amp, too lazy to figure out the full number)

Anything above 5% is underpowered for a non healing amp build, but on any build that focuses on healing amp...

[Lithic]

Going back to solar phoenix, 4.01*1.1*1.1*1.1 is a lot more than you think it is(530-540% healing amp, too lazy to figure out the full number)

Anything above 5% is underpowered for a non healing amp build, but on any build that focuses on healing amp...

I'd be surprised if the past lives stacked multiplicatively rather than additively (so in your example with 10% per past life you get 4.01 x 1.3 rather than 4.01 x 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.1). This would follow the stacking ways of human healing amplification 3 being *1.3, rather than *1.1*1.1*1.1. Don't have 2 pally past lives yet, so can't say for sure.

In any case, any character with 4x healing amp is already pretty rediculous. A little more or little less healing amp won't affect how rediculous they get. Its like the old 110 AC halfling. by that point, who cares if they find another +5 AC, it doesn't matter.