Give Tempest III 10% double-strike

[grodon9999]

I'm not going to pretend not to be biased as my main guy is a tempest III, but every addvocate should believe in his cause.

But right now 5% is just a big bucket of meh. Tempest IIIs lost a disproportionate amount of attacks in the U5 nerfs, 10% would make the suckage less.

[Yaga_Nub]

Nope.

[Visty]

no

[Asketes]

so you want rangers to be the ONLY class that gets 100% off hand proc AND you want 5% more doublestrike.


That's a big November Oscar... (NO)

[Morlen]

Would definetly hose fighers, as their cap is strictly 10% doublestrike and can only muster 80% offhand proc.

[SisAmethyst]

no as well

... and I will try to give reason: nearly all characters got nerfed by the change in U5 and a Tempest III is still a bit ahead

see Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[grodon9999]

so you want rangers to be the ONLY class that gets 100% off hand proc AND you want 5% more doublestrike.

Yes, that is exactly what I'm asking for. Considering they used to have 110%/137% it's not absurd to ask for 110%/100%.

[Asketes]

Yes, that is exactly what I'm asking for. Considering they used to have 110%/137% it's not absurd to ask for 110%/100%.

cuz it's not absurd to have fighters and barbs to have them at what is it 110/60 (fighter) and 100/60(barb)?


yup, makes total sense


I would be ok with giving Tempest III that extra attack like it used to have. I was bummed to see it go away

[grodon9999]

no as well

... and I will try to give reason: nearly all characters got nerfed by the change in U5 and a Tempest III is still a bit ahead

see Combat Feedback for Update 5.

See a reliable DPS calc, what again is a Ranger ahead of in TWFing? http://www.filedropper.com/dpscalcupdate19

The additional 5% wouldn't push them OTT either.

[grodon9999]

cuz it's not absurd to have fighters and barbs to have them at what is it 110/60 (fighter) and 100/60(barb)?


yup, makes total sense


I would be ok with giving Tempest III that extra attack like it used to have. I was bummed to see it go away

110/80 and 100/80 and they hit much harder.

[Asketes]

110/80 and 100/80 and they hit much harder.

ever heard of strength?

hehe

[Cyr]

Agreed. Tempest 3 is a very hard sell right now in builds.

~2.5% increaes in dps is not very impressive and with ranger 12-18 granting very little I find it hard to justify an 18 ranger build.

[grodon9999]

ever heard of strength?

hehe

A Rangers STR potential doesn't come close to that of a fighter or a barb. When the stars align my Ranger can hit 48 STR (Normally 40-44 when beating on bosses), my fighter once leveled-up and geared should be able to break 60 (with the same stars aligning, mid-50s will be sustainable).

[Asketes]

Agreed. Tempest 3 is a very hard sell right now in builds.

~2.5% increaes in dps is not very impressive and with ranger 12-18 granting very little I find it hard to justify an 18 ranger build.

You know people TR just to get like +1 to damage right? People will go to great lengths to get a small fraction more dps.. Not saying Tempest III is uber, i definitely agree with you; I'm merely stating that 2.5% is much more than what some people go through the whole TR process to achieve

A Rangers STR potential doesn't come close to that of a fighter or a barb. When the stars align my Ranger can hit 48 STR (Normally 40-44 when beating on bosses), my fighter once leveled-up and geared should be able to break 60 (with the same stars aligning, mid-50s will be sustainable).

take 18 ranger 2 fighter build (just for giggles, i'm not referencing exploiter or monster build)

at 18 ranger you get 12 damage per hit for favored enemy, so you have sub-optimal dps to rats and spiders lol..

power surge is 4 damage and fighters get 4 more damage from both weapon specialization feats, that's 8. then you get what +2 to damage from weapon spec enhancements and +2 from kensai specialization and +3 strength (if optimized comes to +2 damage)
that's 14 damage to everything, and some mildly better crits.

so fighters get more universal damage, you get the very similar damage on the majority and an extra 20% off hand procs universally. That's 1% more lightning strikes hehe

seems like each has their own neat little niche. They are all supposed to be strong in unique ways, not all strong all the time every way. right?

[kernal42]

Tempest III certainly needs some love. DPS is better with a 12/6 Ranger/Other_Melee_Class split than it is with Ranger18, and level 4 spells just don't pick up that slack. A bump to 10% doublestrike would make me reconsider dropping TempestIII.

So,
/Signed

Cheers,
Kernal

[grodon9999]

take 18 ranger 2 fighter build (just for giggles, i'm not referencing exploiter or monster build)

at 18 ranger you get 12 damage per hit for favored enemy, so you have sub-optimal dps to rats and spiders lol..

power surge is 4 damage and fighters get 4 more damage from both weapon specialization feats, that's 8. then you get what +2 to damage from weapon spec enhancements and +2 from kensai specialization and +3 strength (if optimized comes to +2 damage)
that's 14 damage to everything, and some mildly better crits.

so fighters get more universal damage, you get the very similar damage on the majority and an extra 20% off hand procs universally. That's 1% more lightning strikes hehe

seems like each has their own neat little niche. They are all supposed to be strong in unique ways, not all strong all the time every way. right?

See the http://www.filedropper.com/dpscalcupdate19 U5 Damage calcs, they take a "maxed" WF 18/2 ranger for their comparison like what you are mentioning. This is good data that takes into account haste-boosts and fun stuff like that, if you open it with Open Office you can even change the variables and all that fun stuff.

The Max-WF 18/2 isn't close to a fighter, "monster," or even a TWF Barbarian. This is against favored enemies. The 5% more double-strikes wouldn't com close to closing this gap.

I am in no way advocating that Rangers should do more damage than fighters or barbs, that's absurd because rangers have added versatility that fighters/barbs don't. Increasing double strike to 10% is a small boost that in no way pushes them over.

[Cyr]

You know people TR just to get like +1 to damage right? People will go to great lengths to get a small fraction more dps.. Not saying Tempest III is uber, i definitely agree with you; I'm merely stating that 2.5% is much more than what some people go through the whole TR process to achieve

What is important is what the competitive advantages are not that it grants some bonus. The choice is not I can be a tempest 3 or I can TR my guy from a monk past life...

The choice is I can be a 12 ranger/6 something or a tempest 3.

Some simplified math to explain things (so all ~ signs will be left off)...

18 Tempest compared to 12 ranger/6 kensai

Tempest 3
+2.5% dps
+2 damage for FE per hit
+1 additional FE per hit damage with enhancements

If your base damage per hit is 80 then a 2.5% dps increase equates to roughly 2 extra damage per hit from another source. Basically for every 40 average damage per hit you do the tempest 3 bonus grants the same bonus as 1 extra damage per hit from another source.

12 ranger/6 Kensai

+2 damage per hit Assumed weapon spec is taken as one of the feats which washes out the benefit from FE above.
+3 feats (not including weapon spec).
+2 Str
+2 damage per hit Kensai (ignoring the rest of the dps benefit)
Fighter Haste boost adds burst dps
Higher to hit

So unless you are doing greater then 80 average damage per hit the kensia mix is doing more dps and gets more feats.

Oh and yeah I now people TR toons for +1 damage...I just did so with my main last night. Her next life...12 ranger/6 rogue/2 monk which was a complete no brainer due to it being an AC build.

[Yazston_the_Invoker]

I just can't get behind this. Granted, I am not a DPS expert, but I have no complaints whatsoever about my exploiter's (18/1/1) Tempest III DPS. When I compare his DPS against favored enemies vs. my TWF Kensai fighter with capstone, who has a 12-higher STR with Surge, his non-crit DPS is significantly higher than my fighter. Considering Evil outsiders and Giants comprise the majority of mobs I've faced since hitting 18 ranger, I'd say that this is a valid argument. The only way my fighter wins is on crits, and that is just because he is a Khopesh Kensai compared to my Dwarven axe-wielding dwarven exploiter.

I'd say that Tempest III is fine as is...and there ARE other useful reasons to go Ranger 18.

[Aaxeyu]

/Signed.

But I would prefer 20% to 10%.

Rangers are way behind in the DPS game right now, they need a buff.

It's incredibly silly to make comparisons to the offhand/double strike proc rates of other classes if you leave out everything else they get.
DPS is not soley dependant on your offhand/doublestrikes....

[grodon9999]

I just can't get behind this. Granted, I am not a DPS expert . . .

Neither am I but I believe the DPS experts who published that calc because they show all of their numbers. Even against FEs rangers are behind and the additional 2.5% this gives won't change that, it'll just make it a little better

but I have no complaints whatsoever about my exploiter's (18/1/1) Tempest III DPS. When I compare his DPS against favored enemies vs. my TWF Kensai fighter with capstone, who has a 12-higher STR with Surge, his non-crit DPS is significantly higher than my fighter. Considering Evil outsiders and Giants comprise the majority of mobs I've faced since hitting 18 ranger, I'd say that this is a valid argument. The only way my fighter wins is on crits, and that is just because he is a Khopesh Kensai compared to my Dwarven axe-wielding dwarven exploiter.

I'd say that Tempest III is fine as is...and there ARE other useful reasons to go Ranger 18.

The comparison is a bit off, D-Axes do more base damage, assuming greensteel 9 versus 4.5 on average. Crits, attack speed from haste boosts, etc . . . all factor in. You need to look at the whole picture.