Give Tempest III 10% double-strike

[Vynnt]

With Favored Enemy, Rams Might, and no dex requirement for TWF, Tempest Rangers should hit just as hard has a Kensai Power Boosted Fighter with Wep Spec Feats.

That being said, a Fighter will out dps a Tempest due to the speed boosts. A Kensai III will have 11ish speed boosts, that's enough to keep it up when it matters.

1. Tempest III is disproportionately weak. The other two levels give ~4% overall dps, with Tempest III at ~2.5%.

2. Something like making them 110/100 or 105/105 isn't such a bad idea, when you consider a fighter to being like 143/104 on boost, 110/80 off.

[Yazston_the_Invoker]

The comparison is a bit off, D-Axes do more base damage, assuming greensteel 9 versus 4.5 on average. Crits, attack speed from haste boosts, etc . . . all factor in. You need to look at the whole picture.

1 damage per swing on average. Khopesh=d8, Dwarven axe=d10...no GS here yet. In fact, I posted my comparison mostly based on the fact that gear does not factor in all that much as of yet, as neither of my toons have tons of GS items or raid loot. I'm comparing regular old Holy +5s for the most part.

And yes, perhaps the calcs show one thing, but this is not 100% the case...take my toons for example. In a perfect environment, yes.

What I'm trying to point out, though, is that 105/100 with ranger abilities is comparable to 110/80 with fighter boosts. I would HOPE that the fighter wins out in a perfect world...he SHOULD, since that's what he does, fight. Rangers, OTOH, have so much else they can do...and Tempest III is still useful. What about Kensai III? Why is it so many builds go for Kensai II to get the power surge, then take Ranger6 for Tempest I? Tempest III is not the only PRE that isn't as good as the one that comes before it, but that does not mean it's bad, or needs to be pumped up. I and aparrently a few others, think it is ok how it is.

Personally, I just want to see Turbine forget about TWF changes and work on NEW PREs and perhaps work on other additions to the game. As far as I'm concerned, they did enough to the combat system as is, and I'd prefer to quit now before things are nerfed to oblivion on all fronts!

[grodon9999]

. . .Why is it so many builds go for Kensai II to get the power surge, then take Ranger6 for Tempest I?

WHo does this since U5?

[quickbunnie]

Neither am I but I believe the DPS experts who published that calc because they show all of their numbers.

So I agree with you about Tempest III's needing some type of boost. But do you know where A-O and Yargore got their attack speed numbers from? I've been looking and I can't find a reference anywhere - here or codemasters.

Vynnt hit it right on the money:
A Tempest III against a FE will hit close to the same damage per swing as a Kensai III fighter using their signature weapon. I believe the fighter is ahead by +2 dmg per hit.

Ranger gets +20% to half-strength off-hand attacks, +5% to main hand
Fighter gets +10% to main hand

Difference really lies in the haste boosts. 10+ hastes of 30% means a sustained ~20% OVERALL DPS boost across 5+ mins. DPS calculator defaults on 5 minutes.

Solutions: 10% double-strike is a nice start. Alternate Ranger capstone would annoy lots of 18/2 and 18/1/1 splits - but I think that would re-balance the overall class differences.

Ranger 6 is still a decent splash though. You don't get the 10% alacrity anymore, but still get Ram's might, 2 FE at +6 damage, 10% off-hand, bow strength and many-shot. Mediocre perhaps, but certainly not a useless splash.

The Monster builds weren't nerfed nearly as much as the Tempest III's were, relatively speaking.

[Yazston_the_Invoker]

WHo does this since U5?

Well, I don't even have a list of people who did it PRIOR to U5, so I can't really say.

Quickbunnie, however, gives a good idea of why it can still be useful. What he also does, is suggest something I CAN get behind. Rather than boost TempestIII, like you originally brought up, give us an alternate capstone that might do something similar...adding to what you get in TempestIII. That way, you have more of a reason to take Tempest III, AND you have more of a reason to go Ranger 20, even if you are not going AA. I think that suggestion would be a Win/Win.

+1 to you, quickbunnie!

[Yazston_the_Invoker]

Alternate Ranger capstone would annoy lots of 18/2 and 18/1/1 splits - but I think that would re-balance the overall class differences.

Actually, I like this idea. (this coming from someone who has one of those 18/1/1 splits) I don't think this would annoy those people the way you think it might, since I think a great number of those with splits like that do it because they want the utility of having rogue skills, or the AC of having a monk splash, etc. Not necessarily because the DPS is better.

Those that would be interested in pure DPS could very easily do a lesser +3 and go Ranger20 with no major issues.

[Ystradmynach]

Well, I don't even have a list of people who did it PRIOR to U5, so I can't really say.

Quickbunnie, however, gives a good idea of why it can still be useful. What he also does, is suggest something I CAN get behind. Rather than boost TempestIII, like you originally brought up, give us an alternate capstone that might do something similar...adding to what you get in TempestIII. That way, you have more of a reason to take Tempest III, AND you have more of a reason to go Ranger 20, even if you are not going AA. I think that suggestion would be a Win/Win.

+1 to you, quickbunnie!

Every class is suppose to eventually have at least two capstones available to them. I would like to wait and see what the alternative ranger capstone will be before tampering with TempestIII.

What I do want to see though which they haven't already said they were going to do is provide a wider selection of useful ranger spells. It just doesn't seem right to me that a 20th level ranger doesn't have any more 4th spells available to learn than he has spell slots.

[grodon9999]

The Monster builds weren't nerfed nearly as much as the Tempest III's were, relatively speaking.

Which is highly Ironic because Tempest I was what was grossly over-powered, not Tempest III.

[k1ngp1n]

Taking a quick look at attack rate mechanics, I definitely have to agree with this.

Fighter 20: 110/88
Tempest 3: 105/105

This incorporates their alacrity bonuses.

110+88 = 198
105+105 = 210

So the ranger gets 12 more attacks in the same time sequence. However, many of them are offhand, which are less effective. I'll apply a basic weight to account for having half str damage in the offhand. Lets just say that offhand attacks are 80% the primary,

(110*1.00)+(88*.8) = 180.4
(105/1.00)+(105*.8) = 189

Effective attack rates are very close to each other, indeed. 80% was a guesstimate, so the actual offhand percentage effectiveness could be different. I picked that as a conservative number from in-game subjective experience. Fighters also have haste boost, which completely throws it on its head. In the hands of a player who knows how to use their haste boost effectively, fighters attack significantly faster than rangers. SIGNIFICANTLY.

A brief look at attempts at defining post U5 dps numbers unanimously show rangers at the bottom.