Developers & Customer Relations & You.

[Angelus_dead]

While I do see what Tarrant was trying (desperately) to get across, in his post, he should have rewrote that one. To say: "If we say something is X, it's because it is."

Here's an interesting counterexample.

Over a year ago there was a thread of players complaining about the Black Abbot raid, which back then was practically impossible. A developer (whose name I won't repeat so as to leave it impersonal) jumped in and gave some advice: "Players can dispel Mantle of Invulnerability off of a lich".

That was not possible in DDO at that time, and is still not possible today. It seems probable the designers don't actually want Mantle to be dispelled, as that could make Liches too easy to kill with Wall of Fire. So it was just an honest mistake from a dev who was trying to be helpful, but hadn't quite remembered the topic accurately. But even after several players reported their own testing that it was impossible, no dev or Turbine staff came back and said "Oops, yeah, that was wrong".

This is a simple example, but it shows that not everything a developer says is necessarily true. It would be unwise for either players or developers to act like dev statements are always automatically accurate.

[Zzevel]

What Turbine neglects, and indeed outright ignores, is that a sizable chunk of the player base work in IT, and know from the inside what can be done and how, and Turbine then treats those same players as ignorant hicks. Don't whiz on my leg and tell me it is raining. We're not morons. When we get treated like we're idiots and lied to our faces as it were over and over, what do they think we're going to be feeling like? If Turbine doesn't like the players' attitudes, they need to get it through their heads that THEY CREATED THIS SITUATION BY:

• NO TIMELY COMMUNICATION
• REPEATED SIMPLE BUGS NO ONE ELSE WOULD KEEP THEIR JOB AFTER WRITING
• CONSTANT GAME CHANGES
• CONSTANT NERFS OF THINGS PLAYERS LIKE AND ARE SUCCESSFUL WITH
• RANDOM CONTENT ADVANCEMENT
• FAST FIXES OF BUGS THAT BENEFIT PLAYERS - SLOW TO NONEXISTENT FIXES OF BUGS THAT HURT PLAY
• OUTRIGHT BS
• DEAFENING SILENCE AND THREAD KILLS WHEN SOME SUBJECTS ARE BREACHED

I agree with Memnir. Any respect had was lost with that attitude. MF could have simply posted a : P smiley and replied with something about how much more difficult the code would be. Instead, Tarrant leaps in and slams the door with an attitude as if they are beyond the hurly-burly. Right when they take part and start communicating is the WORST time to pull that.

Guess what Turbine? When people pay you money, they take your lack of customer service, lack of perceived giving a darn, your lack of communication, and apparent arrogance very badly. What do think they're going to feel like? Did ANY of you take ANY psych courses at college? Well, I don't think they worked and you should maybe reacquaint yourself with basic human nature.

This, exactly this... +1

There is something to say when one developer says hey... we messed up, and then the community service person, the face of the company, and rants like a 1st grader. Maybe working with/for the player base is a better option than attacking them. If someone cannot understand the limitations, they cannot relay good information back to the end users. If need someone better equipped, dare I even say.. "tech savvy" to help out, let us know where to apply.

[Rumbaar]

That the known issues list is for issues they feel they have enough bug posts/information on and that the reason they would not have an issue on the list is they are hoping that if it is not on the "known issues" more bug posts would be made as they need additional information.

Then logically and anyone with half a thought would create two 'Known' issue threads:

Official Known Issues - Open bugs [need more bug reports]
Official Known Issues - Closed bugs [Do not need more bug reports]

[Angelus_dead]

Then logically and anyone with half a thought would create two 'Known' issue threads:

A little more logical to divide it into "Known Issues" and "Needed Bug Reports". The first list would be read by the large number of players who want to know what problems to expect after a game update, while the second would be for the much smaller group that's interested in trying to help the QA process by reporting their own observations.

Note that if there were limited resources to keep them updated, it is the former list that is more important to keep going.

[TigrisMorte]

Could you write that again?
try re reading it starting with the title
" It was posted"


You should probably try again at figuring out who you're writing to.

I am not writing "to" anyone. I am addressing an attitude and some poorly chosen words.

[Rumbaar]

A little more logical to divide it into "Known Issues" and "Needed Bug Reports". The first list would be read by the large number of players who want to know what problems to expect after a game update, while the second would be for the much smaller group that's interested in trying to help the QA process by reporting their own observations.

Note that if there were limited resources to keep them updated, it is the former list that is more important to keep going.

The naming of said threads is just semantics, the separation [as it seems the current one is limited functionality in the mindset of Turbine] and maintenance of them is the important part.

As for limited resources, I'm sure one of these could handle it. It's not like it's an update in 'real-time' thread [but maybe draw from their internal bug tracker]:

Introductions

We’d like to take a moment to introduce our community team! Whether we’re gathering your feedback, hosting games with you, or you need help with the websites, we’re here for you!

Patience, Senior Manager Online Community Relations: “I’m Meghan “Patience” Rodberg, Senior Community Manager for Turbine. I’m really looking forward to finally seeing the North American and EU communities become one giant community!”

Tolero, Senior Community Specialist: “Greetings! I’ve been with the Turbine team since 2007, though I’ve played DDO since shortly after launch. I’m always conspiring to bring you entertaining and/or useful things. And puzzles (I’m told that I’m “chaotic neutral with evil tendencies”). I’ve always enjoyed the EU community’s contributions from afar, so it’s great to have you here!”

Tarrant, Community Specialist: “Hi Europeans! I’m your sometimes-friendly-neighborhood-community-specialist Tarrant, and I’m glad you’re here. I was born in the US, but grew up in the UK, so for the purposes of this message I’m as European as you. That means we’ll get along great, provided you follow the rules and occasionally make me laugh.”

Cloverluckyleaf, Community Specialist: “Hi my name is Clover! I conduct the Featured Player interviews, update the websites, make wallpapers, and do a bunch of other stuff. Every day is a new adventure! I love to cook and bake, and on occasion share some goodies with the rest of the team. No one has had to make a trip to the emergency room yet, so I must be doing something right!”

Frelorn, Community Specialist: “Hey everyone, I am Andy “Frelorn” Cataldo. I have been at Turbine for about 6 years now, and spent the majority of my time as part of the community team. I have been a gamer since my days with Intellivision and Atari right through to today, with various online games as well as consoles. One of the best things about my job is being able to interact with some of the best gaming communities out there, and I am looking forward to having you here with us.”

Sapience, Community Specialist: “I’m Sapience. You’ll find me mostly on the LOTRO side of things but occasionally I step in to help out with DDO when things get crazy. Some of you might have already seen me as I occasionally post on the Codemasters Forums. It’s great to have you here!”

Cubethulu, Resident Gelatinous Cube: “I’m much like my monster kin, who slide through dungeons cleaning unwanted clutter by digesting it. The only difference is I clean forum threads, digesting naughty posts. It’s probably safe to say that getting to meet me is rarely a good thing.”

[TigrisMorte]

Then logically and anyone with half a thought would create two 'Known' issue threads:

Official Known Issues - Open bugs [need more bug reports]
Official Known Issues - Closed bugs [Do not need more bug reports]

It was in reference to a statement that a specific bug was still not on the list. It was meant as informative of the "explained reason" for this according to official source. Nothing more.

[Rumbaar]

It was in reference to a statement that a specific bug was still not on the list. It was meant as informative of the "explained reason" for this according to official source. Nothing more.

fair enough, but I think their defence of not having known issue on that thread for more bug reports is a weak one [don't want to use harsher words]. Do they need more bug reports on the fact that your HP/SP items are taken off and put back on you on log in and thus reducing any applicable HP/SP? Did they need more bug reports to the fact that the guild components were not working, before they fixed them.

They both were not on the known issues list and there is no more bug reports that can help them investigate those issues. One is still outstanding.

There isn't even an official known issue or informative thread for the temporary boost clickies that are labelled 50% but are 75%. You have to hunt for a release notes thread. This should be in a Known issues thread to make the game more user friendly for new players, this is the reason they changed 1d6 to 1 to 6. The sporadic nature of their implementation of 'good' ideas is their own worst enemy.

[Daerius of the Blessed Blades]

This conversation reminds me of an old Far Side cartoon. With all respects to the development staff - as a four year vet, you all do an outstanding job of keeping me coming back!

Modified for the occassion (with respect to Gary Larson).
.

[TigrisMorte]

How is "anyone with half a thought" helpful?
Seems intentionally derogatory, inflammatory, and counter productive.

How about, and I personally think this would go to suggestions,
"It would help the players to have two 'Known' issue threads:
Official Known Issues - Open bugs [need more bug reports]
Official Known Issues - Closed bugs [Do not need more bug reports]
This would allow us to perform testing and narrow down details on the bugs y'all are having trouble replicating. " Just my 2 coppers. Although I would not cal it closed as that is like "done".

And as from reading the prior posts and getting the sense of "confrontation is required" in some of them, Here is the origin message, nothing to do with me.

I appreciate the effort! Couple of notes for everyone's sanity:
1. If you're reporting bugs, make sure you've done so in the bug reporting tool (which can be accessed outside the game) also. The forums are not a bug reporting tool, and posting them only to the forums can actually delay a fix.
2. Our "known issues list" is not intended as a list of every bug we know about. It is a list of bugs we don't need more reports about. We very often don't put things on the list because we WANT you to keep filing bug reports on them if we're looking for more information or a sense of the impact of the bug.

As for my, "what's so crazy about peace, love, and understanding" attitude, I don't promise that anything better shall occur from it. But I do promise nothing worse shall.
I can not say the same about confrontational vitriol.

[flynnjsw]

fair enough, but I think their defence of not having known issue on that thread for more bug reports is a weak one [don't want to use harsher words]. Do they need more bug reports on the fact that your HP/SP items are taken off and put back on you on log in and thus reducing any applicable HP/SP? Did they need more bug reports to the fact that the guild components were not working, before they fixed them.

They both were not on the known issues list and there is no more bug reports that can help them investigate those issues. One is still outstanding.

There isn't even an official known issue or informative thread for the temporary boost clickies that are labelled 50% but are 75%. You have to hunt for a release notes thread. This should be in a Known issues thread to make the game more user friendly for new players, this is the reason they changed 1d6 to 1 to 6. The sporadic nature of their implementation of 'good' ideas is their own worst enemy.

You might want to take a look at MadFloyds comments here

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=269967&page=4

[TigrisMorte]

...[don't want to use harsher words].
Thank you. I think the wording of that criticism was civil and clear.

Do they need more bug reports on the fact that your HP/SP items are taken off and put back on you on log in and thus reducing any applicable HP/SP?
They very well might, it could be they are unsure of the exact solution even if the event is well known perhaps they are still hoping for that one report taht gets the "ah ha!" moment.
Did they need more bug reports to the fact that the guild components were not working, before they fixed them. Perhaps they were still trying to prove their suspicion as to the cause right up to the fix being implemented. All I can say is, "been there, done that."

They both were not on the known issues list and there is no more bug reports that can help them investigate those issues. One is still outstanding.

There isn't even an official known issue or informative thread for the temporary boost clickies that are labelled 50% but are 75%. You have to hunt for a release notes thread. This should be in a Known issues thread to make the game more user friendly for new players, this is the reason they changed 1d6 to 1 to 6. The sporadic nature of their implementation of 'good' ideas is their own worst enemy.

I completely agree that the "incorrect" descriptions are irritating. I can however see how that could be a low priority. Particularly when they could on the list of potential "change again for balance".
I honestly suspect that the "reword it to 'X to X' so normal folk understand it." was from the marketing dept. and the MBA that never played "those games" thought it was a great idea.
I am just glad the Dev.s refused to rename it, "(insert cross license partner here) heroes and naughty bad things."

Personally I always refer to it with multiple dice as "1d6 = 1 to 6" (even though in some cases it is 1d3+3), but, "2d6 != 2 to 12". This actually bothers me quite a bit.

[Rumbaar]

And as from reading the prior posts and getting the sense of "confrontation is required" in some of them, Here is the origin message, nothing to do with me.

Yes and hence my comment:

... the separation [as it seems the current one is limited functionality in the mindset of Turbine] and maintenance of them is the important part.

I want to change that mindset, as it's current use of 'not intended as a list of every bug' is not what a 'known' issues thread should be. At least title or make it very clear it's not for all known issues or it's intended current purpose. Within the thread.

I completely agree that the "incorrect" descriptions are irritating. I can however see how that could be a low priority.

But how can in the process of changing all those descriptions across all those items, spell, etc not fix all the current incorrect descriptions is totally beyond me. It's like running a spell checker across a document and only fixing the first paragraph of a 4 paragraph document. It defies logic.

I truly wish to understand how one process can be done on such a global scale without affecting change in another.

You might want to take a look at MadFloyds comments here

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=269967&page=4

Yes I've read that, I'll assume it's the one [I don't have a page 4, as I view 50 post to a thread], and I've responded to it as well. MadFloyd is one developer I'm happy to see post and does so quite often in a humbling manner.

[flynnjsw]

Yes I've read that, I'll assume it's the one [I don't have a page 4, as I view 50 post to a thread], and I've responded to it as well. MadFloyd is one developer I'm happy to see post and does so quite often in a humbling manner.

Yes, that would be the one.

[IronClan]

No I believe you misinterpret and if you can't quote the example of my statements pertaining to this impression you are implying, then you are de facto making stuff up, and isn't that some sort of forum violation in of its self?

This makes no sense at all, why do I need to repost the relevant "brown nose" comment when it exists a couple posts higher in the thread?

Anyway since you need to have your nose pushed into it:

"Something I believe strongly wouldn't happen if we just keep blowing sugar and flowers up their back sides while trying to see who's nose can get brown the fastest."

Correct me if I'm wrong but that is YOU saying you "strongly believe" that you must be insulting to get results you desire, and by implication anyone who doesn't is "blowing sugar and flowers up their back sides while trying to see who's nose can get brown the fastest"

i've claimed nothing of the sort, my professional experience is with consulting for efficiency and safety in manufacturing as well IT consulting for medium sized office networks. I use my education mostly to question Turbines competence, which includes degrees in sociology and management.

Here's what I said:
"surely you can recall several posts where you claim to run a large software or IT related business (consulting?) and you've used this to question Turbine's competence..."

And here's your "rebuttal" (quoted twice just so you don't go accusing me of making it up):
"i've claimed nothing of the sort, my professional experience is with consulting for efficiency and safety in manufacturing as well IT consulting for medium sized office networks. I use my education mostly to question Turbines competence, which includes degrees in sociology and management."

I was going to dissect that a little, but I think I'll just let my statement and your "rebuttal" sit their uncomfortably close to each other, and let anyone who bothers reading it, make up their own mind. Anyway I've no wish to argue with someone who's going to contradict himself from one sentence to the next, so the floor is yours.

[AbsynthMinded]

..some stuff that lacked teeth..

Try again, because you are making no headway in whatever point you are attempting to make. Other than to appear and make personal attacks on me, and not the discussion at hand.