Spellsinger (melee caster)

[Varis]

Bear with me please =)

I realise that a warchanter makes a better melee and a fully crowd control specced spellsinger makes a better caster.


A sorc makes the best nuker, a barbarian makes a incredible melee.... because they do focus on what they are good at. A bard is 2nd class to a wizard for crowd control (aside from fascinate) while our melee, while high is always 2nd to a pure melee especially when they benefit from our buffs.


Not that Bards are a 2nd rate character. Their buffs alone make them more then welcome in a raid. The fact that we can step back and be a backup healer or crowd controller or add to melee makes this a great class.


But if versatility is our strength, why not apply it to combat?

I realise that a spellsinger melee build will probably have to be 2H due to the shortage of feats and our DPS will be quite mediocre without putting points into STR.

So how do you do it? How do you combine a strong caster with melee? I'm convinced that the answer to that will put a melee spellsinger to a insane dps level and solo ability.

My little project is only level 12 and while I notice that melee is below my warchanter around that level, it's still very high.
I'm not yet combining spells at melee though. To be honest I considered that at high levels only with access to the amrath neck + blue dragon armor so I can have a full nuke while having a mineral 2 out. (also max and empower going of course)

Greater shout + melee

does this even work? Has anyone experience combining it this way?
I know bards dont have infinite mana but a bauble, spellsinger 10% mana discount, torc and concord opp HP item can make it go pretty **** far.

What are your toughts on this?
What feat selection would you consider?


my 1st thought would be, elf:
- extend
- empower
- power attack
- maximise
- improved crit: slash
- toughness
- Quicken

[Darkrok]

I'm doing the same thing on a warforged but running virtuoso (until I raid as Warchanter). Those are the feats I'm planning on taking as well except that I have to drop empower due to needing a feat not in the list to qualify for Virtuoso (up to level 10 at least) or Warchanter. If I stayed Virt though I'd probably qualify using Extra Song IV instead of a feat and then take empower healing, maximize, and quicken all 3 to improve my healing.

[Varis]

I'm doing the same thing on a warforged but running virtuoso (until I raid as Warchanter). Those are the feats I'm planning on taking as well except that I have to drop empower due to needing a feat not in the list to qualify for Virtuoso (up to level 10 at least) or Warchanter. If I stayed Virt though I'd probably qualify using Extra Song IV instead of a feat and then take empower healing, maximize, and quicken all 3 to improve my healing.

oh **** good point, I guess improved crit has to go then because mineral II already has keen

[Darkrok]

oh **** good point, I guess improved crit has to go then because mineral II already has keen

That's an option but eventually if you get a weapon better than min2 (and until you get the min2) you'd want to have the feat as well. For instance, against non-bosses you'd ideally want an epic sword of shadows. If you had that then you'd want the feat. Definitely a choice having to be made there. Incidentally, while neither of us benefit from this the human version, with its extra feat, doesn't have to make that decision. It gets the best of both worlds.

[BoBoDaClown]

Bear with me please =)

I realise that a warchanter makes a better melee and a fully crowd control specced spellsinger makes a better caster.


A sorc makes the best nuker, a barbarian makes a incredible melee.... because they do focus on what they are good at. A bard is 2nd class to a wizard for crowd control (aside from fascinate) while our melee, while high is always 2nd to a pure melee especially when they benefit from our buffs.


Not that Bards are a 2nd rate character. Their buffs alone make them more then welcome in a raid. The fact that we can step back and be a backup healer or crowd controller or add to melee makes this a great class.


But if versatility is our strength, why not apply it to combat?

I realise that a spellsinger melee build will probably have to be 2H due to the shortage of feats and our DPS will be quite mediocre without putting points into STR.

So how do you do it? How do you combine a strong caster with melee? I'm convinced that the answer to that will put a melee spellsinger to a insane dps level and solo ability.

My little project is only level 12 and while I notice that melee is below my warchanter around that level, it's still very high.
I'm not yet combining spells at melee though. To be honest I considered that at high levels only with access to the amrath neck + blue dragon armor so I can have a full nuke while having a mineral 2 out. (also max and empower going of course)

Greater shout + melee

does this even work? Has anyone experience combining it this way?
I know bards dont have infinite mana but a bauble, spellsinger 10% mana discount, torc and concord opp HP item can make it go pretty **** far.

What are your toughts on this?
What feat selection would you consider?


my 1st thought would be, elf:
- extend
- empower
- power attack
- maximise
- improved crit: slash
- toughness
- Quicken

I think my generalist build (CC, not spell dps) combines strongish casting with strongish melee = it's further down the page.

I'm not sure you can nuke two well on a bard - the damage output from greater shout would be a little slow and inconstant (at a guess).

[Varis]

I think my generalist build (CC, not spell dps) combines strongish casting with strongish melee = it's further down the page.

I'm not sure you can nuke two well on a bard - the damage output from greater shout would be a little slow and inconstant (at a guess).

well even with non optimised gear (no shroud) you can get your +32 damage without any shroud items on your Quarterstaff and usually putting down a dancing sphere is all it takes to clean em out.

But even a full DPS warchanter can have a tough time vs super high hitpoint bosses or large groups like the devils in sins. They dont have favored enemy, rage or weapon spec to clear them out quickly enough. The armor class is also too low to allow for longer fights. Bards end up resorting to heal spamming which is not how you want to be fighting =)

So I envision very aggressive fighting that bunches up mobs like a sorcerer, blasts them for 250-300 (700+ crit) then cleans them up with melee, keeping the heat off the bard via the stun.

For boss fights I'm not sure how nuking + fighting will work out best. I have yet to test a fully specced greater shout + melee dps vs something that won't just keel over after 2 seconds. (perhaps a solo fight vs an amrath boss would work)

[BoBoDaClown]

well even with non optimised gear (no shroud) you can get your +32 damage without any shroud items on your Quarterstaff and usually putting down a dancing sphere is all it takes to clean em out.

But even a full DPS warchanter can have a tough time vs super high hitpoint bosses or large groups like the devils in sins. They dont have favored enemy, rage or weapon spec to clear them out quickly enough. The armor class is also too low to allow for longer fights. Bards end up resorting to heal spamming which is not how you want to be fighting =)

So I envision very aggressive fighting that bunches up mobs like a sorcerer, blasts them for 250-300 (700+ crit) then cleans them up with melee, keeping the heat off the bard via the stun.

For boss fights I'm not sure how nuking + fighting will work out best. I have yet to test a fully specced greater shout + melee dps vs something that won't just keel over after 2 seconds. (perhaps a solo fight vs an amrath boss would work)

Not trying to put you off - just adding thoughts to the discussion. I would have thought it would be difficult to land the shout when it counts - against harder mobs. The shout will be at -4/-5 DC (-2 focus, -2 capstone, -1 for evo focus instead of dreamspitter, unless you can get +2 evo focus - I don't know what there is for evocation) compared to a enchant based spellsinger, versus fortitude, which I believe are generally the mobs stronger saves.

Just my thoughts.

[Varis]

Not trying to put you off - just adding thoughts to the discussion. I would have thought it would be difficult to land the shout when it counts - against harder mobs. The shout will be at -4/-5 DC (-2 focus, -2 capstone, -1 for evo focus instead of dreamspitter, unless you can get +2 evo focus - I don't know what there is for evocation) compared to a enchant based spellsinger, versus fortitude, which I believe are generally the mobs stronger saves.

Just my thoughts.

That is a good point, my DC will be 33 (with spellsinger song), and if I push it with black dragon armor and an amrath potion, I can reach 35DC.

TOD con based critters certainly won't be impressed by that but since its a fort based save, at worst I end up with half damage.

That a low DC nuke hits often if the right stuff is targeted is shown to me time and time again by my sorc TR nuke clicky. So I have not given up hope yet =)

No question that I'm more likely to hold, dance or charm them but there has GOT to be a way to combine bard melee + magic.
At least I should make a proper effort and share the numbers =)