Hurray Noobzor Barbarian question! (Frenzy/Death Frenzy specifics)

[FriedPsitalon]

Okay. Prior to today, I have been building a barb whose purpose was to be a THF, trying to balance tank and gank.

I had originally looked at Frenzy and thought to myself "This is simply Vicious by another name. Since I swing a single big weapon, I'm not going to get as much mileage from this as a TWF would, and I'd rather spend my points on brute fighting, improving my power attack, and improving my toughness/constitution."

Glancing at the other thread, "Is Frenzied a must?" it seems that I've clearly misunderstood either what Vicious does, or what the mechanic behind Frenzied is altogether. Since the in-game description is...well... inconclusive, and the out-of-game materials I've been able to locate on the discussion are also inadequate, I throw myself to the mercy of the veterans who, in the past, have outdone themselves helping me.

Please spare me the smartass flame answers - I freely admit I have no idea about this, I have sought out the info, and the compendium is less than ideal.

1. What exactly does FB 1/2/3 do/enable?
2. Why is it so massively important? My DPS at level 14 certainly seems more than potent as it is?
3. Is the HP drain you get from running the ability significant enough to be a problem, or is the extra damage you do always worth it?
4. Is it appropriate for a barbarian who tends to tank for his friends, as I do, or strictly for a damage platform?

Thanks in advance as always. My barbarian is a Warforged, if that matters.

[Freeman]

At lower levels, particularly for a new player with fewer resources(Not to mention HP), the FB I enhancement isn't as appealing. One thing to keep in mind with most discussions on the forums is that they focus primarily on high-level content, so the advice may not work at lower levels. In fact, I believe someone in that thread mentioned that they would only take FB once FB II was available. At that point, there is much better healing available(The Heal spell in particular), and you have a larger HP pool, reducing the impact of the Vicious effect.

As for your specific questions:

1. The descriptions in the compendium seem fairly accurate. If you have questions about specific benefits and their meanings, go ahead and ask. Also, you may find a better explanation in the DDO Wiki.(Google will point you to it)
2. The HP of mobs in quests at levels 15+ ramp up considerably, particularly the devils. Several raid bosses have HP totals so high that 8 melee characters can take several minutes(If they are well equipped) to kill them. When you factor in Elite and Epic quests, the DPS needed goes up even more. It isn't hard to reach these levels, particularly for a barbarian, which is probably the easiest class to build effectively.
3. At lower levels, it probably isn't worth it. At higher levels, yes, it always is worth it.
4. For a new player, there's no reason not to take it. The vicious damage is only in effect when you activate Frenzy and/or Death Frenzy, so you can use it as needed at lower levels, then increase usage as you prefer. You'll get hooked on it

[Khanyth]

1. What exactly does FB 1/2/3 do/enable?

Basically, it enables you to hit harder and kill things faster, at the expense of damaging yourself. While the benefits of FB 1 may not be all that good now, once you get 2 and 3, which stack, your damage increases a lot more

2. Why is it so massively important? My DPS at level 14 certainly seems more than potent as it is?

Someone online told me to think of it as adding another weapon effect to the one you're using. At 14, you're right... it won't be that much. But once you hit 18 and get FB3, you'll notice a significant increase. I was the same way when I was in my 14-18's.... once you get FB3, you'll wonder how you ever did without it.

3. Is the HP drain you get from running the ability significant enough to be a problem, or is the extra damage you do always worth it?

If you are soloing, it might mean you have to chug some more heal pots. If you are in a group (particularily with a healer) the extra damage is very much worth it.

But in the end, for 75% of what you do: yes, the damage is always worth it.

4. Is it appropriate for a barbarian who tends to tank for his friends, as I do, or strictly for a damage platform

Depends what you want to do with your friends. Before the birth of my daughter, I kinda had a static group that I ran with, and it was decided that the paladin would intimidate the mobs to him, while I jumped over them and killed the casters, then flanked back to clean up the mobs.

[Aggnavarius2]

Don't forget the critical multiplier. At FB 2, your crit multiplier goes up by 1 when raging, so for greataxes, that X4. At FB 3, your crit multiplier goes up by one more while raging, and goes up by 1 more while in a death frenzy, for a total of +3 to your crit multiplier with frenzied berserker 3.

[Khellendros13]

Don't be that Barb that cannot hold the aggro of a boss when on tanking duty. If you don't have FB3 and frenzy in raids at least, you can reroll and give up your spot for any other DPS build.

This question has been asked before, the answer is you need FB3 to be on equal ground DPS wise with other good DPS builds, regardless of their class.

I am sick of my Kensai taking agro with a few swings even after the Barb has had time to build agro. My own Barb only has 33 standing strength and a min2 greataxe, yet I don't have the above issue - I keep both frenzies and rage going.

/end rant

[eulogy098]

Total benefit of frenzy line-

6d6 vicious damage, 100% glancing blow proc rate (so with GTHF its 12d6 damage 3/4 of the time)

+6 strength = +3 damage, +3 attack bonus, +3 Stunning Blow/Trip/Sunder DC

+3x Critical Multiplier turning a Great Axes natural crit rolls (19 and 20) into 6x damage


and a completely worthless Supreme Cleave, the likes which i expect is not on any proper barbs tool bar.





Yes, frenzy is worth wasting a feat on Cleave, and wasting some enhancement points on Damage Boost as there are no other options that would give you even a fraction of a benefit that Frenzy3 does.

[FriedPsitalon]

To further educate me:

Why is Supreme Cleave useless?

I get that the windup makes it pretty lousy with 1-2 targets, but a good intimidate in a group fight and I can pull 7-8 things near me. Punching it repeatedly then triggers an awful lot of hits. Seems like a lot more than I'd get just making cuts in the same timeframe.

Since the common consensus is that SC is useless, what am I missing that others appear to know?

[Khanyth]

To further educate me:

Why is Supreme Cleave useless?

I get that the windup makes it pretty lousy with 1-2 targets, but a good intimidate in a group fight and I can pull 7-8 things near me. Punching it repeatedly then triggers an awful lot of hits. Seems like a lot more than I'd get just making cuts in the same timeframe.

Since the common consensus is that SC is useless, what am I missing that others appear to know?

My opinion only here:

but most barbs that I know don't do the intimitank role in a group... that's better left for Pali's or monks or fighters... someone with the AC. Most barbs that I know wait for that class to get agro, go off to kill the casters, then flank back to kill the mobs that the pali/fighter has intim'd. I play my barb by trying to kill aqap. Because of this, Supreme Cleave just doesn't get it done for me, in terms of killing things as quick as possible. Since I'm already taking damage with frenzy's, I don't really want the agro that will make the fight a 5 on 1... I'd sooner get behind those 5 and beat the hell of them with my 3 types of rage and 2 types of frenzy with the attack bonus you get of getting behind them.

IMO.... by the time you clicked it, lost the 10 hp per click, and watched what happened..... you could have just stood there and hit the same targets you just supreme cleaved for a lot more damage, with weapons and frenzied effects.

I do use it from time to time... say to destroy the circle of frozen adventurers in the boss area of Prey on the Hunter, in 1 shot. Or to hit all the rats at once on way up the hill to the bridge to Meridia.

EDIT: This isn't for me to tell you how to play your character though..... do whatchalike. It's just my 2 cents and what I do. Play how you like

[FriedPsitalon]

Oh, I'm not offended in the least. There's a lot of validity to letting an AC tank do the intimidating. Problem is that - in my circles at least - I tend to be the sturdy guy, so I end up mashing that intimidate button a lot. I figure if there's seven or eight around me anyhow, it's not like the 10 HP is going to make the difference and it might cut down incoming damage in the long run.

I'd prefer to be the anti-caster, but that tends to fall to our local ranger, while I have to hold the line. :P

[Khanyth]

Oh, I'm not offended in the least. There's a lot of validity to letting an AC tank do the intimidating. Problem is that - in my circles at least - I tend to be the sturdy guy, so I end up mashing that intimidate button a lot. I figure if there's seven or eight around me anyhow, it's not like the 10 HP is going to make the difference and it might cut down incoming damage in the long run.

I'd prefer to be the anti-caster, but that tends to fall to our local ranger, while I have to hold the line. :P

I see your point.

If you still want to SC... it'd do it once, then stand still and get glancing blows. You'd still be better off with letting your rages and frenzies do the work for you.

[eulogy098]

Has nothing to do with intimidate or ac...

has everything to do with- you will do more dps even to multiple targets by NOT using. Normal THF melee swinging + Haste + Glancing blows w/ 100% frenzy procs = greater AOE dps than spamming supreme cleave.


So go ahead, intimidate that trash and enjoy your guards procing. But when you do it, just swing away and you will do more total damage output than you will by spamming supreme cleave because you will get dramatically more attacks off in the same amount of time. Supreme Cleave (and in fact all cleave effects in ddo) are painfully slow, and equate to so little dps that they are effectively worthless because even with 8 monsters around you, standard melee attacking does more total damage.


Perhaps if you are unhasted and not madstoned the gap closes a little, but how often are you neither hasted or madstoned and have half a dozen mobs on you?