Time for Paladins to get Intimidate please

[Sirea]

We're considering this change. We attempted to give Paladins a "different approach" to tanking with the threat multiplier abilities, but it may be time to give them access to the intimidate skill. As noted, the Intimidate skill differs drastically in use and effect from P&P, and the Paladin class suffers for not having it on their class skill list.

I'd actually rather you fixed the DoS stances so Paladins can hate tank more effectively. I'd get rid of my 2 Ftr splash in a heartbeat if I could depend on more than Divine Righteousness for aggro management.

[Coldest]

Not that I built my guy based off this thought. But then again, I built him with the idea that the stance would actually work. Allowing him to threat or intim depending on the scenario.

[Adarro]

I am all behind giving Paladins access to the intimidate skill but I cannot say how vociferously I disagree with this argument. A paladin fully specc'd for intimidate should NEVER be as good as a fighter specc'd for intimidate.

Situationally, I disagree with your disagreement

A fighter's ability to specialize in something should make them pretty much top tier in any 'generally' specific thing they specialize in... as a general rule. (If you don't understand that, its OK, I'm not sure it even makes sense at first, but I can't think of a 'more betta' way to say it.)

Here's an analogy:
A fighter who's dedicated his life to mastery of the [short] bow will pretty much out marksman anyone in a standard archery contest.

Now, consider a nomadic tribe whose warriors / hunters are trained to strike something as small as a rabbit or a head-shot while riding a horse bareback through a forest. [They're entire tribes survival depends on this and has for say 1000 years]

When it comes to hitting a rabbit in a crosswind while riding bareback through a forest, who's going to bring home the gold? Not the Kensai, although he should make a far more respectable showing than anyone else.

So, back to an intimidate-like skill for paladins, vs overwhelmingly evil undead / outsiders, an 'Intimidating/threatening/challenging' paladin should win hands down every time vs anything else because a. they specialized much like the fighter and b. the target is predisposed to hate them in the first place.

In nearly all other cases, the 'general specialist' should be able to hold the advantage.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

[Coldest]

I'd actually rather you fixed the DoS stances so Paladins can hate tank more effectively. I'd get rid of my 2 Ftr splash in a heartbeat if I could depend on more than Divine Righteousness for aggro management.

Aye, fix both stances.

[parvo]

We're considering this change. We attempted to give Paladins a "different approach" to tanking with the threat multiplier abilities, but it may be time to give them access to the intimidate skill. As noted, the Intimidate skill differs drastically in use and effect from P&P, and the Paladin class suffers for not having it on their class skill list.

This idea disenfranchises the fighter. Paladin's have tons of utility and superior saves, why should they be given even more?

[theb]

Fixed for ya.

Coldest rolls to understand sarcasm. Coldest rolls a 1 (-1). Critical failure!

[Gremmlynn]

Awesome....what skill will u be giving fighters and barbarians then

Actually, wait...I'm serious

How about at least tumble for a fighter seeing as how mobility can be a huge perk for an AC tank.
Maybe heal and/or repair (depending on what race you are) for a barbarian so when they are solo'ing they will get more HP back at shrines.

Well they could give them the paladins non-functional agro generating stance and everyone comes out even.

Why would giving paladins an expensive work around for a class power that doesn't work mean fighters and barbarians should also get something when there stuff isn't broken.

[sephiroth1084]

We're considering this change. We attempted to give Paladins a "different approach" to tanking with the threat multiplier abilities, but it may be time to give them access to the intimidate skill. As noted, the Intimidate skill differs drastically in use and effect from P&P, and the Paladin class suffers for not having it on their class skill list.

As probably the biggest proponent and most visible endgame user of paladin threat tanking, I really want to say something here.

It works. It's cool and it's a lot more fun than intimidate tanking, which I've recently specced out of entirely.

But the stance bug makes it incredibly hard, frustrating and not fun. I cannot believe this bug has persisted for a year! The defensive stances do not provide any aggro generation bonus!. Paladins would and could much more effectively threat tank if they weren't relying on the module 7 attempt to do this (divine righteousnses, and its conflicts with divine might). It would be fun, engaging and extremely effective. Instead I have to use righteousness and a 2handed weapon frequently to effectively threat tank.

Please don't make paladins into another class holding shift and spamming intimidate. The entire playstyle isn't fun or engaging. Intimidate is just so boring and mindless. Just fix the stances. Please. Please. Please. Let fighters do it too. Let the determining factor be quest design (Lailat = must intimidate, Horoth = much easier to not intimidate), and not the fact that fighters simply can never threat tank, and paladins have to mash buttons like a 3 year old and pray to do it.

I love your work but it's just insulting to see a post in this thread about how the path you've tried hasn't worked, because the only reason it doesn't work is a gigantic, crippling bug in the centerpiece of that path's strategy.

If my defensive stance was +200% threat, I would never, ever lose aggro. Ever.

As it is, I can use it while someone else is tanking for the dps (+4 str) and never pull aggro off them. The bonus is nonfunctional.


Giving paladins intimidate won't even do anything unless you also rework all their benefits to provide skill bonuses like the fighter ones do. Without those bonuses, paladins wouldn't hit the dcs anyway. Fighters can only do it through the combination of prestige class bonuses and the plethora of bonus feats for skill focuses, bullheaded, and possibly Deneith Dragonmarks. Paladins do not have 2-5 feats to spend on intimidate while remaining functional characters. The classes are much better the way they were concieved by you a year ago .. but paladins have never got to play the way that you concieved, because the stances do not affect aggro generation whatsoever.

While I agree with Junts that threat tanking is more fun than intimitanking, and that the devs really need to get in there and fix the non-functional hate generation in DoS, I don't really feel that adding Intimidate to the paladin's skill list would be either a waste or detrimental.

For one, paladins are likely running with considerably more Cha than fighters, and for another, adding the skill to their list would necessarily bring along skill enhancements (as I believe you, Eladrin, mentioned recently concerning skill lists and their corresponding enhancements, along with a note about lowering the cost for ranks II-IV), so they'd have the option of improving their intimidate that way. After that, it would simply be a matter of choice:

Splashing 2 fighter, while largely for the access to intimidate, won't be obsoleted as it still gives some hefty benefits (3 feats, if you count Tower Shield Proficiency, Haste Boost I, Str I and access to Jump).

Personally, I enjoy having the options to both threat tank and intimitank when the need arises: sure, without feats a paladin still probably won't be intimidating epic Lailat or elite Horoth, but those extremes shouldn't be the stick by which this decision is measured.

Threat-tanking works very well vs. single opponents and when you're starting as the tank, but works poorly against multiple opponents and in situations where you are not the one tanking from the start, such as if, in ToD, the main tank goes down--intimitanking, with a high enough score, can often salvage that situation, whereas hate tanking is much more dicey.

In summary, I'd be overjoyed to see paladins get intimidate as a class skill, Eladrin.

Now, can we get greensteel deconstruction so people can adjust to major changes like this PLEEEEEASE?!

[Coldest]

Coldest rolls to understand sarcasm. Coldest rolls a 1 (-1). Critical failure!

Haha nice. My main is Coldest-1. However, it was failed sarcasm. That is why I fixed it for you.

[Coldest]

Well they could give them the paladins non-functional agro generating stance and everyone comes out even.

Why would giving paladins an expensive work around for a class power that doesn't work mean fighters and barbarians should also get something when there stuff isn't broken.

Actually, the fighter stance is broke as well.

[theb]

Haha nice. My main is Coldest-1. However, it was failed sarcasm. That is why I fixed it for you.

To the extent it's basically indistinguishable from half the serious arguments in this thread, yeah it fails pretty hard.

[Solmage]

We're considering this change. We attempted to give Paladins a "different approach" to tanking with the threat multiplier abilities, but it may be time to give them access to the intimidate skill. As noted, the Intimidate skill differs drastically in use and effect from P&P, and the Paladin class suffers for not having it on their class skill list.

Might I suggest that you simply give paladins a power that works on diplomacy that works as if it were intimidate? Holy Word - gives a sermon that REALLY annoys everyone, and forces them to attack the paladin. For extra kicks, make everyone in the party roll a will-save vs attacking the paladin too

[Adarro]

Might I suggest that you simply give paladins a power that works on diplomacy that works as if it were intimidate? Holy Word - gives a sermon that REALLY annoys everyone, and forces them to attack the paladin. For extra kicks, make everyone in the party roll a will-save vs attacking the paladin too

For proper balance / role-play, make it an automatically granted feat at level 1, with an enhancement line for a chance to turn it off.

[Mudcnd]

PnP is too broken to try and convert to real time. Thus they have to change some things, and deviate a bit.

But still, not signed. Although, I do think that if you take a 'Skill Focus: [Skill]' feat, it should make that skill a 'class skill' for you, since you do special training to focus on it...

Hmm to me that would be the biggest nerf to bards and rouges, seriously anyone with a spare feat could have umd as a class feat?

[sephiroth1084]

Might I suggest that you simply give paladins a power that works on diplomacy that works as if it were intimidate? Holy Word - gives a sermon that REALLY annoys everyone, and forces them to attack the paladin. For extra kicks, make everyone in the party roll a will-save vs attacking the paladin too

Why reinvent the wheel?

[Meetch1972]

For proper balance / role-play, make it an automatically granted feat at level 1, with an enhancement line for a chance to turn it off.

Ahhh... taking "How Not To Be Annoyingly Self-Righteous" lessons. Everyone wants to teach the indignant b$#@!*&ds a lesson, no? Diplomacy could be this, surely.

Perhaps if paladins had auto-aggro based on their BAB (or level or more applicable number) + 10 + CHA bonus or such and make them take the skill to grant the Pally levels in a stance which works AGAINST their auto-aggro aura (diplomacy). If any pally wants to shed aggro in favor of a differently designated tank then they will actually have a passive diplomacy effect triggered by entering a stance. I would imagine this would take concentration for a pally to maintain, so it might give them a -5 to concentration (pick more appropriate value for balance) while they are holding the stance.

Thus diplomacy could be used, not to shed aggro, but to prevent drawing extra.

[geoffhanna]

BAB doesn't work in DDO the same way that it does in PnP. It goes up just for standing in one place instead of going down for each extra attack in a round.

Since BAB doesn't work the same anyway, I think we should give all of the classes the same BAB. Much more balanced, and so many people like playing WF wizards with greatswords. Why not let them have fun too?

[Mithran]

The benefit of multiclassing Rogue for Paladins would be significantly diminished by granting Paladins Intimidate as a Class Skill. In its absence, Anguirel would have some of her utility reduced, making the multiclassing effective only for UMD and Evasion. I've worked hard on Anguirel and would have mixed feelings about a mechanic change.

[sigtrent]

I am interested on seeing some build posts showing an 80 ac 'massive dps' build, because I have yet to see any numbers in any current popular builds where a 20 paladin can hit 80 ac without a shield and out hate dps a barb say at the same time.

DPS: GTWF Kopesh 36+ str exaulted smite 3 for DPS Crits around 500pts on smites which are spaced for agro. With the 300% hate amp (not including items) thats 1500pts which few frenzied barbarians can hope to match. A non smite crit is around 150 or 450pts and a regular hit 40 or 120pts. The only thing that can really peal off agro are lighting strikes crits very early on which are far more rare that crit smites.

AC: Base 10, Armor 8, Aura 6, Gear dodge 9, Stance dodge 4, CE 5, Dex 8,Wis 8, Insight 4, Alchemical 1, Bark 5, Inspire Heroics 4, Recitation 2, Haste 1, Deflection 5, Syberis set 2 = 74

Then there are the ship buffs extra potions to dix/wis, .... and short buffs like defense boost or shield clickie. Not hard to go to 80 for end game.

My guild leader in madborn plays a hate tank pally like this. I don't think he's gotten to 80 but he's 70+ when tanking. I've never seen anything peel off agro from him but you do have to give him a few swings to get the hook in. On the other hand I've pulled agro off of frenzied berzerkers on my skirmish paladin with no agro amp due to crit smites or lightning strike. Hate amp is just far more consistent than simply doing a lot of damage.

[Angelus_dead]

We're considering this change. We attempted to give Paladins a "different approach" to tanking with the threat multiplier abilities, but it may be time to give them access to the intimidate skill. As noted, the Intimidate skill differs drastically in use and effect from P&P, and the Paladin class suffers for not having it on their class skill list.

A suggestion made since DDO's beta:

Give Diplomacy a second icon so it can be used either to attract or reply aggro. This will neatly grant Paladins and Monks full access to tank taunting. For the sake of variety, aggro-pulling by Diplomacy is unaffected by size, and instead is modified by law/chaos alignment, with more chaotic creatures better able to resist it.

Note that either approach (allowing Dip to pull aggro or giving Paladins Intimidate) would invalidate the reason for very many Paladins to splash Fighter and Rogue, so you could look at sending them a complementary Lesser Heart.

PS. Of course I also suggest bigger changes to Intimidate-type things, such as having them work with hate aggro instead of overriding it.