Time for Paladins to get Intimidate please

[Kromize]

The relation between skills and classes in DDO is exactly the same as in PnP. This game is based on D&D, and there are already way too many rules Turbine decided to deviate from. Every additional deviation will just make the game balance more broken.

/not signed

P.S.: +1 to Theb for bringing it more to the point

PnP is too broken to try and convert to real time. Thus they have to change some things, and deviate a bit.

But still, not signed. Although, I do think that if you take a 'Skill Focus: [Skill]' feat, it should make that skill a 'class skill' for you, since you do special training to focus on it...

[Aschbart]

That is not true at all! The way skills are used is completely different in DDO than it is in PnP and many of the skills characters get are nearly, or completely, useless. Paladins get Concentration (something not really useful for them in PnP, since they have too few spells per day to be worrying about it) and Diplomacy (given that paladins have among the best saves in the game, good HP and potentially excellent AC, they shouldn't, or very rarely should, be shedding aggro onto their fellow teammates).

As has already been pointed out, you are mostly wrong here. Skills do work mostly as they do in PnP, at least for the elements of the game that exist in both DDO and in PnP. Tanking is not one of these elements, so your point is moot with respect to both intimidate and diplomacy. Another skill that was also severely changed is tumble, but since the PnP mechanic (avoiding AoOs) does not exist in DDO, you can hardly complain here either.

Note that in PnP the main use of diplomacy has always been in dealing with NPCs that you didn't set out to fight in the first place (or vice versa). The in-combat use of diplomacy is very strongly restricted in PnP and suffers a -10 penalty in most cases for using it 'rushed' (i. e. within just one round instead of 1 minute). In DDO the intention of using diplomacy is shedding aggro on your tank, not shedding aggro onto your squishy wizard. If you don't have a tank (other than you), then of course, it doesn't make sense for a paladin to use it.

The jump skill still makes you jump higher, the swim skill swim better/faster, the perform skill raises your songs' DCs, the rogue skills all work exactly like in PnP, except for the addition that spot in DDO can warn you of a trap ahead (which IMHO is a reasonable change - if I were still running a home campaign, I would be inclined to use this rule as well)

Whether or not individual skills are useless is another discussion altogether, but I always found the skills in DDO to be much more useful than in any other D&D based game so far. And I don't think they are in general that much more useful in PnP. It all depends on the type of campaign you're running. In some you might not find a use for swimming at all, whereas in others even Profession: sailor might be useful. Jump is a skill hardly any adventure requires, using the skill is mostly bound to end up in a comical relieve rather than an accomplishment. I could go on...

Skills should have been reevaluated long ago. Look at how many useful skills are on each skill list. Hell, look at the wizard's: 2 class skills with 6-9 skill points per level, everything else they take is cross-class.

I'm not going to comment on that, as it is OT. Please open a new thread for that suggestion if you feel like it.

[Vallin]

Seriously - Intimidate was changed for DDO and it doesnt work like in pnp. So just go all the way and change the Paladin skills to add Intimidate.

Why? Capstones. People take 1 or 2 fighter levels so they can be a real intimitank - and then lose the capstone because Turbine wants only pure classes mostly.

Going pure paladin and losing 12 points of intimidate makes it next to useless to even bother - either you hit high numbers or do even put points into it.

Also - Bluff should be like Diplo - area and lasts longer than 1 hit. It is a rogue skill specifically meant for various things - one of which is to be able to get sneak attacks. And it sucks bad in DDO for that goal.

I also think that Paladins should automatically come with two monk levels and enough ranger levels to take advantage of both DoS AND Tempest lines.

TURBINE WHY DO YOU KEEP NERFING MY PALADIN?

Vallin.

[Vallin]

...I do think that if you take a 'Skill Focus: [Skill]' feat, it should make that skill a 'class skill' for you, since you do special training to focus on it...

This kind of makes sense to me.

As for other arguments, I also agree that this is not D&D so please move on from that argument. Talk about things that make sense from a gameplay or DDO perspective. Pointing out that something is 'not like pen and paper D&D' is kind of specious.

Vallin.

[Krag]

/signed
There has to be a way for pure AC paladins to hold aggro. And for the love of God don't bring PnP as an argument. PnP failed to make melee viable past first 3-5 levels.

[Aschbart]

/signed
There has to be a way for pure AC paladins to hold aggro.

There is. Look it up.

[coolpenguin410]

/not signed

It's just the choice you have to make. Multi-class and get intimidate but lose the capstone or stay pure, keep the capstone, but lose intimidate. It's fair enough. Paladins often make much better hate tanks than fighters. Being different is not bad or wrong, just different.

If you want an intimi-tank, either multi-class or roll a fighter. Also, you don't have to multi-class into fighter. You can pick up rogue for a boost in skill points and UMD and sneak attack or bard for skills, UMD and a few extra SP from CHA. You do have choices. Just because they're not the choices you want does not mean they're wrong or should be changed.

[coolpenguin410]

Talk about things that make sense from a gameplay or DDO perspective. Pointing out that something is 'not like pen and paper D&D' is kind of specious.

Disagree. This game is based off PnP. PnP will and should always be the first argument.

[Kromize]

Disagree. This game is based off PnP. PnP will and should always be the first argument.

This game being based off PnP was a mistake. It is a derivative of PnP, and will not have the same exact rules. PnP is an old, outdated, never-been-perfect system anyways. I see no reason to look to PnP for what to do, when it is human minds that originally created it anyways.


**'Disapprove (e.g. Inflammatory, Derogatory, Disruptive, Trolling, or violates community guidelines)' Wonder which one it was? I can't see any of this being inflammatory, derogatory, disruptive, trolling, or violating guidelines. On the other hand, it's kind of silly that people use the negative rep to voice their disapproval, instead of a reply.

[Krag]

There is. Look it up.

There is not. Think about it.

[coolpenguin410]

This game being based off PnP was a mistake. It is a derivative of PnP, and will not have the same exact rules. PnP is an old, outdated, never-been-perfect system anyways. I see no reason to look to PnP for what to do, when it is human minds that originally created it anyways.

DnD was PnP first. DDO is meant to be an incarnation DnD. If we ignore PnP, it is no longer DnD. If we do go down that road, you will lose the DnD fan base, myself included. DDO will then just become another generic MMO.

/derail off

[prestorx]

DDO is merely D&Dish or D&Desque but its not D&D.

A few examples: rest shrines, spell points, skills, AC, BAB, HP allocation, attribute distribution, multiclassing, alignments, and probably more I can't think of off the top of my head -- just about everything that really counts is somehow different in DDO from D&D. Really it should be renamed DDINO, D&D In Name Only.

That tired old meme of "they had to change almost everything to make it playable in a video game" might actually work if there hadn't been more than one other game that managed to do just fine and stick much closer to the rules of D&D and in did it with multiple editions. I'm thinking of the Black Isle infinity engine games and NWN as well as Pool of Radiance and what about the Eye of the Beholder series from the early 90s.

The reality is that DDO was designed to be an MMO by people who most likely never played PnP D&D. It was a corporations attempt to milk an old school cash cow in the modern digital age. To my mind where the devs went wrong was in focussing more on the MMO and not enough on the RPG.

That's not to say that DDO sucks or anything like that. If I thought that I wouldn't play it. But to be honest I was more than a little disappointed when I first started playing DDO and my expectations didn't line up with the reality of gameplay.

[Dilbon]

Make the capstone grant +10 intimidate. Problem solved.

[azrael4h]

I think what the OP is trying to say is that its harder than it should be for a paladin to grab and hold aggro. However trying to give him intimidate like a fighter would just start generalization of the two classes which is a bad thing.


My idea would be to give a paladin a passive aggro using his aura.....to upset demons,devils and undead. I say this because in D&D DMs often target paladins with those mobs since the aura of good makes a paladin out to be everything these creatures hate.

My Paladin has no issues taking and holding aggro just by sheer damage output. Even the same-level Barbarian in my guild has trouble keeping aggro from switching to me. I have no need for intimidate, nor do any Paladins.

[skyking613]

Besides, many mobs can't be intimidated,

Wrong, there are very few things that can't be intimidated.

[flynnjsw]

From what I have read paladins are having problems with aggro. Here is the link that has some info on the topic.


http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=218542,
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...00&postcount=3

Again the OP seems to be having problems with aggro and is looking at the fighter wanting what they have. IMO he should be focused more on twinking the paladin's given abilities. Also has Divine Righteousness been fixed the links said it was buggy but its been a few months.

Lets see, 20th lvl WF Paladin in ToD on normal, no intimidate, no hate enhancements/gear, and I held Suluu's aggro just fine. Maybe it's just me...

[Krag]

Lets see, 20th lvl WF Paladin in ToD on normal, no intimidate, no hate enhancements/gear, and I held Suluu's aggro just fine. Maybe it's just me...

Just for the record.
Is your pally KotC or DoS? What is your AC?

[flynnjsw]

how about rolling your own toaster if you envy them so much? you want everything added on one char, seriously?

if your rant is about firewall being too good compared to other spells, its only half true there are whole endgame packs where you cant do anything with firewall, plus even firewall and caster are limited, each class is limited in its own way

after gianthold upwards, things get pretty well balanced

/d20 will save vs sarcasm FAIL...

[flynnjsw]

Just for the record.
Is your pally KotC or DoS? What is your AC?

He is KotC, and I think with the Docent I usually wear my AC is maybe a 19. (+2 Deathblock Docent of Spearblock, I am still working on my Quarforged Docent of Battle and my DT Docent).

You can MyDDO him if you like; Paladdium of Khyber.

[shablala]

Check out Defender of Syberis III Superior Defensive Stance and add Paladin Divine Righteousness I. I shouldn't even have to point these out ....

Besides, many mobs can't be intimidated, and fighters have *less* means for hate-tanking than paladins do!

Great point with the Pre and Enhancement to boost hate!! Now if they actually work it would be even better!

So you're OK with Rogues to get Intimidate, which goes again any conceivable rogue build, and deny it from a class that has a clearly defined tank role. Yea makes great sense as long as we dont deviate from any D&D rule, whether it makes sense or not.