Time for Paladins to get Intimidate please

[Visty]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...rClassFeatures

thats an evil paladin though, we dont have paladin of slaughter in ddo, we have the normal one

[gurslak]

Fighters do have access to other feats, like weapon specialization and greater weapon specialization. No other class can have them. And they get one feat every two levels, that sounds unique enough to me. You can customize your fighter, which is great.

They get them due to having bugger all else available to them, they cant cast spells, use devices very well, disable traps, heal or smite. All Fighters have are their weapons, the ability to use them to their potential and the ability to annoy mobs.

Paladins have enough going for them they dont need Intimidate too, though I do agree something similar to Intimidate through some other means perhaps. I just dont want to see the same thing here as in WoW where players whine X class isn't good compared to Z and they want all abilities possible, so devs buff X using Z's tools and Z becomes obsolete as it brings nothing to the party.

[Freeman]

Since so many people are hung up on the "It isn't pnp" line or the "It would ruin fighters" line, here's an idea. Make the skills work like they should in pnp. Diplomacy can be used to make an npc more hostile towards you as well as less hostile. Paladins would not be gaining anything they aren't granted in pnp. Fighters would not be loosing anything, since they would still be the intimidating class. Well, except for rogues and barbs. If you really want to get technical, intimidate should make a creature stop attacking you.

The primary benefit of being a fighter is the number of bonus feats they get. A pure paladin that tried to specialize as heavily in Intimidate as a fighter would have to compromise their DPS, AC, or both. Giving paladins intimidate isn't going to make fighters less attractive. I play an 18/2 pally/fighter, and changing the skill wouldn't make the fighter levels unnecessary. I would still need the extra feats. This is not a zero sum game, even if some think it is. Having multiple ways to make viable intimitanks is a good thing, just like having multiple ways to build high dps characters is good. If there is only one viable route to something, then you have a design flaw.

[Nospheratus]

thats an evil paladin though, we dont have paladin of slaughter in ddo, we have the normal one

Never said it wasn't, it's just not the "normal" paladin. I posted that because you were talking about a variant of the paladin not being on the rulebooks.

They get them due to having bugger all else available to them, they cant cast spells, use devices very well, disable traps, heal or smite. All Fighters have are their weapons, the ability to use them to their potential and the ability to annoy mobs.

Paladins have enough going for them they dont need Intimidate too, though I do agree something similar to Intimidate through some other means perhaps. I just dont want to see the same thing here as in WoW where players whine X class isn't good compared to Z and they want all abilities possible, so devs buff X using Z's tools and Z becomes obsolete as it brings nothing to the party.

That's exactly what i said!

While intimidate is a very very useful "tool" to use on harder quests, it's not the only way. It's a lot more challenging when it is not used.

Let's not make quests even more similar in regards to how you can complete them.

[Nospheratus]

Since so many people are hung up on the "It isn't pnp" line or the "It would ruin fighters" line, here's an idea. Make the skills work like they should in pnp. Diplomacy can be used to make an npc more hostile towards you as well as less hostile. Paladins would not be gaining anything they aren't granted in pnp. Fighters would not be loosing anything, since they would still be the intimidating class. Well, except for rogues and barbs. If you really want to get technical, intimidate should make a creature stop attacking you.

The primary benefit of being a fighter is the number of bonus feats they get. A pure paladin that tried to specialize as heavily in Intimidate as a fighter would have to compromise their DPS, AC, or both. Giving paladins intimidate isn't going to make fighters less attractive. I play an 18/2 pally/fighter, and changing the skill wouldn't make the figjter levels unnecessary. I would still need the extra feats. This is not a zero sum game, even if some think it is. Having multiple ways to make viable intimitanks is a good thing, just like having multiple ways to build high dps characters is good. If there is only one viable route to something, then you have a design flaw.

You can't do that with diplomacy. Even the name itself represents to some point "peace" in the same way intimidate represents "violence".

[Freeman]

You can't do that with diplomacy. Even the name itself represents to some point "peace" in the same way intimidate represents "violence".

You may want to look up the pnp skill description then. They apparently didn't take that into account, since it allows you to make creatures more hostile towards you. After all, diplomacy could never be used to incite violence

[Aaxeyu]

I don't get why you are against this.

Intimidate in DDO is very important for any tank build. IMO every melee class should get it as a class skill, especially paladins!

Would it somehow make fighter or rogue splashed paladins useless? Nope, not a chance. You gain ALOT more than just full ranks of intimidate by splashing 2 levels of fighter or rogue.

Fighter gives 2 feats + towershield proficency, haste boosts and 1 str etc.
3 feats on a paladin is HUGE. If you wanna fit some TWF/THF feats you more or less need to splash fighter.

All this change will do is making pure paladins viable aswell. How is that so bad?

[Vallin]

We're considering this change. We attempted to give Paladins a "different approach" to tanking with the threat multiplier abilities, but it may be time to give them access to the intimidate skill. As noted, the Intimidate skill differs drastically in use and effect from P&P, and the Paladin class suffers for not having it on their class skill list.

You know, I appreciate the intent here - but it sounds to me more like:

"Our 'different approach' is broken and we don't know how to fix it, so we will water down the exclusivity of fighter intimitank builds by giving it to paladins too."

I have a pure paladin DoS and pure stalwart fighter. I used to know the difference between the two but I guess now I am confused. With this new proposed change, what will be the point of stalwart defender? I guess he has more feats and can trip/stunning blow better than the paladin? Intim used to be BEST on the stalwart defender build - why muddy the waters? Someone mentioned giving firewall to paladins to increase threat. That makes about as much sense.

Why not just fix threat tanking?

Vallin.

[Freeman]

A pure Stalwart Defender has eleven more feats than a pure paladin. If you can't tell the difference after that, I don't think intimidate is the problem. I hate to see the reaction if they make Stalwart Defender available to dwarves of any class. I believe they mentioned doing that back when it was first released.

[Drfirewater79]

I really dont want to read through all these pages on a topic that is asking for more of the DnD to be taken out of this game .... which is already the major reason for me refusing to re-sub as is ...

Palidans dont get intimidate as a class skill .... so changing that would be changing DnD ... it shouldn't happen and it wont happen

Palidans are not suppost to have high intimidate it goes against there class structure ... they are not suppost to strike fear into the hearts of there opponents ... THEY ARE THE GOOD GUYS ... they are forced to be both lawful and good for that reason ...

a palidan is suppost to be attacked before he attacks ...

instead of intimidate a palidan should be getting hate generation (which they do get if they go defender) .... Palidans are the first target for evil creatures .... and as such palidans should have a natural hate generation more then double that of barbarians and fighters ...

so rather then give palidans a skill they have no business having not in game nore RP reasoning ... They should fix hate generation and make it actually work ....

hate generation should have defender builds being attacked until dead based on hate generation ... without intimidate ... it should work as a natural intimidate and have hate generation be a constant effect like slow fall is for monks or powerattack and the likes ...

when its clicked on it acts as a constant intimidate .... DC could even include intimidate ....

you could make it 10+pali level+intimidate skill ... and the 200% hate bonus for defender builds would then make palidans great intimidaters using hate rather then intimidate ..... but this same benifit should be given to fighters who take the defender line as well ...

if they did more of these kinds of changes rather then take the dnd out of it just add flavor to the classes ... there would be less hate over classisms and racist issues in DDO without having to be overly anti DnD.

restricting speical abilities to pre's is a good thing sometimes .... especially if it means a specific class is underpowered because of it.(yes the problem is the underpowered classes none of the current classes are over powered compared to the mobs we face people complain about over powered because they are underpowered and turbine states we are over powered because there system cannot keep up with player skill by adding more mobs instead they nerf us and buff the mobs.)



NOW ALL THAT BEING SAID ..

I wouldnt hate it if they made enhancement lines for skill focus ... so that if you take skill focus you would get special skill focus enhancements for that line ... prefer up to 5 extra which would mean an intimidater .... could choose to forgo more hps for higher intimidate by 5 (AP cost of hps to increase intimidate which is something many intimidaters do currently)

and that would mean people who want higher diplomacy but have it as a cross class ... people who want higher swim or jump or disable or umd or search ....

they can just take the skill focus and choose to waste 5 AP on it if they need ...

this opens up character options without breaking cardinal DnD rules for the sake of people who want to play a power class and compain about not having all the benifits of every other class skill wise.

[Aaxeyu]

I have a pure paladin DoS and pure stalwart fighter. I used to know the difference between the two but I guess now I am confused. With this new proposed change, what will be the point of stalwart defender?

Rofl, the higher AC potential, higher intimidate, more feats and DR/- is more than enough to make stalwart defenders viable.

What you should ask yourself is, what's the point of a pure DoS right now?

I guess he has more feats and can trip/stunning blow better than the paladin? Intim used to be BEST on the stalwart defender build - why muddy the waters?

Intimidate will still be best on stalwart defender build.

Someone mentioned giving firewall to paladins to increase threat. That makes about as much sense.

No, it doesn't.
Most paladin tanks use intimidate anyways, now they don't HAVE to splash to be effective.

Why not just fix threat tanking?

Vallin.

Threat tanking can't replace intimidate.

[Drfirewater79]

A pure Stalwart Defender has eleven more feats than a pure paladin. If you can't tell the difference after that, I don't think intimidate is the problem. I hate to see the reaction if they make Stalwart Defender available to dwarves of any class. I believe they mentioned doing that back when it was first released.

dwarven defender is a pre for the future ... but the fact of the matter is it wont stack with pali defender so really its only good for dwarven clerics?

i mean really fighters already get defender ... palis already get defender and it doesnt stack ... i guess a high ac wizard or sorc wants to gimp there dps or hps to be a defender and grab more agro then needed ....

really an 2lvl monk wis dex cleric and maybe a pure monk ac build looking to top off ac and forget ninja spy or shintao or henshin or combine them if able or the rare dwarven ac ranger ...

personally i would rather see a racial kensai ... maybe human kensai ... that would make humans seem worth something to people like me who never play humans cause they generally stink for stat application and enhancements with the exception of skill enhancements which really should be attached to skill focus and made available for all classes and races based on feat choice.

[Nospheratus]

You may want to look up the pnp skill description then. They apparently didn't take that into account, since it allows you to make creatures more hostile towards you. After all, diplomacy could never be used to incite violence

It doesn't. Check the table and you will see a - where a value for the DC would be to make a creature more hostile.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm

I don't get why you are against this.

Intimidate in DDO is very important for any tank build. IMO every melee class should get it as a class skill, especially paladins!

Would it somehow make fighter or rogue splashed paladins useless? Nope, not a chance. You gain ALOT more than just full ranks of intimidate by splashing 2 levels of fighter or rogue.

Fighter gives 2 feats + towershield proficency, haste boosts and 1 str etc.
3 feats on a paladin is HUGE. If you wanna fit some TWF/THF feats you more or less need to splash fighter.

All this change will do is making pure paladins viable aswell. How is that so bad?

Fighters don't get Lay on Hands. Can we have that on fighters as well? It's very important as a part of tanking! What about the charisma bonus to AC? That's just super-important for tanking!

I don't get why you are for this. The classes are different, just accept that! And besides, you can still tank and intimidate as a paladin, just not the highest level bosses! And even those, you just need a couple epic items and i'm almost sure you can get them as well!

AGAIN: Even though intimidate is a good way to tank, it's not the only way!

Eladrin, can you give a good reason for why the paladin's hate increase enhancements haven't been fixed or aren't going to soon?


And btw, the reason people use D&D sources to quote it is because it's the base of this game, and while it's different and everyone that plays it obviously accepts it, what makes it special is the fact that "it's D&D"! And everything that breaks it's basic rules is bad.

Paladin's have a clear purpose, and it doesn't include coercion (intimidate), unless you are a paladin of evil, an anti-paladin such as the Paladin of Slaughter that has class features like Aura of evil, detect good, smite good opposed to the Aura of good, detect evil, smite evil from The Paladin.

[Aaxeyu]

Fighters don't get Lay on Hands. Can we have that on fighters as well? It's very important as a part of tanking! What about the charisma bonus to AC? That's just super-important for tanking!

That is just more ********, if you can't come up with real arguments, then just keep it quiet.

I don't get why you are for this. The classes are different, just accept that! And besides, you can still tank and intimidate as a paladin, just not the highest level bosses! And even those, you just need a couple epic items and i'm almost sure you can get them as well!

AGAIN: Even though intimidate is a good way to tank, it's not the only way!

Yes, classes are different, they will be even if you give paladin intimidate as class skill.

Intimidate doesn't exist in this form in DnD. Eitehr remove it completely or make it available for all tank classes. It's extremely powerful, permanent aggro from every mob around you. Hate tanking doesn't replace that by a long shot.

Pure paladins will be subpar tanks until we get this change. And I'm all for more viable builds!

[Freeman]

Try again, Nospheratus. This time, actually read both the description and look at the table. Notice the DC for making an unfriendly creature hostile? Notice how the description states that it is used to change an NPC's attitude, not the direction it changes? Intimidate specifies that it makes creatures act friendlier. Diplomacy does not.

[Nospheratus]

That is just more ********, if you can't come up with real arguments, then just keep it quiet.

I came up with more arguments, you just decided to quote only one. In fact, you decided to quote the one everyone seems to be giving to give the Paladin intimidate. And besides, some sarcasm doesn't hurt every now and then :P

Yes, classes are different, they will be even if you give paladin intimidate as class skill.

Intimidate doesn't exist in this form in DnD. Eitehr remove it completely or make it available for all tank classes. It's extremely powerful, permanent aggro from every mob around you. Hate tanking doesn't replace that by a long shot.

Pure paladins will be subpar tanks until we get this change. And I'm all for more viable builds!

That's true, intimidate in D&D isn't like it's implemented on DDO, it's implementation is similar to the Knight's challenge ability though.

And yet AGAIN: Why is it that the only way you find to tank is intimidating? I have around 20 ToD runs on all my toons and only 2 or 3 we'r done intimidating. Most of the times it's DPS agro that holds it.

And besides, if the agro increase enhancements were working as announced you'd see a lot more paly's tanking such bosses! Nothing can beat a couple crit smites at +300% agro except for more crit smites at 300% agro.

[Eladrin]

That's true, although we must remember that this wasn't the original design: until the mod7 release of VOD+Hound raids Intimidate had less duration than cooldown, so it could be used only as a tool to grab a monster briefly and not a way to maintain full-time aggro.

My old suggestion to fix the boredom problem of Intimi-tanking:
Intimidate no longer puts you at the top of the threat list. Instead the successful Intimidate check gives you a temporary multiplier applied to your threat total when the list is sorted. That multiplier is based on the skill check (such as +20% per 1 that the DC is exceeded), and degrades maybe 10% per second.

That method would mean that Intimidate will not work against creatures that other players are damaging unless you're putting out some fair DPS of your own.

I like the idea of revisiting the Intimidate and shield block mechanics to make them less tedious than they are now. That's when we would look into differentiating tanking styles again.

Eladrin, can you give a good reason for why the paladin's hate increase enhancements haven't been fixed or aren't going to soon?

We're investigating the issues, but don't have an ETA on a fix. It's possible that some of those abilities will change.

Paladin's have a clear purpose, and it doesn't include coercion (intimidate)

A Paladin challenging a foe to combat seems more in-character than dumping them on the Cleric with Diplomacy.

Diplomacy and Intimidate work very differently in DDO than in pen and paper. I think it may be time we officially admitted it and stopped tormenting the Paladins.

[SINIBYTE]

paladin who did nothing but work on intimidate would fall short of what a fighter can produce

Some classes are better at somethings than other classes.

That's when we would look into differentiating tanking styles again.

If paladins get intimidate, can I get it on my monk too? I also like to tank.

[Mobeius]

Diplomacy and Intimidate work very differently in DDO than in pen and paper. I think it may be time we officially admitted it and stopped tormenting the Paladins.

Good news for my paladin, eventually LOL. While you are at it why dont y'all take a look at Bluff too and make it like diplo and intim in activation and cool down.

[Nospheratus]

Try again, Nospheratus. This time, actually read both the description and look at the table. Notice the DC for making an unfriendly creature hostile? Notice how the description states that it is used to change an NPC's attitude, not the direction it changes? Intimidate specifies that it makes creatures act friendlier. Diplomacy does not.

Are you assuming that someone hostile would become more hostile (which doesn't exist) because you rolled a 1 and had a really negative modifier? It won't change it's target in the middle of combat just because you did that though.

I guess that could happen. When someone tries to be a diplomat but gets it all wrong and just upsets people... Still doesn't work as "intimidate" - either the PnP version or the DDO version.