Time for Paladins to get Intimidate please

[Riggs]

Seriously - Intimidate was changed for DDO and it doesnt work like in pnp. So just go all the way and change the Paladin skills to add Intimidate.

Why? Capstones. People take 1 or 2 fighter levels so they can be a real intimitank - and then lose the capstone because Turbine wants only pure classes mostly.

Going pure paladin and losing 12 points of intimidate makes it next to useless to even bother - either you hit high numbers or do even put points into it.

Also - Bluff should be like Diplo - area and lasts longer than 1 hit. It is a rogue skill specifically meant for various things - one of which is to be able to get sneak attacks. And it sucks bad in DDO for that goal.

[theb]

NOT FAIR this game is seriously broken that only arcane casters have firewall such a powerful spell it's time to FIX THIS CLASS Turbine.

WHY should we have to choose between multiclassing to get benefits from multiple classes and staying pure to get the most benefit from a class? Until ALL classes get ALL abilities EQUALLY it is just NOT FAIR and NOT BALANCED!

[Aschbart]

The relation between skills and classes in DDO is exactly the same as in PnP. This game is based on D&D, and there are already way too many rules Turbine decided to deviate from. Every additional deviation will just make the game balance more broken.

/not signed

P.S.: +1 to Theb for bringing it more to the point

[Xatasha]

I think what the OP is trying to say is that its harder than it should be for a paladin to grab and hold aggro. However trying to give him intimidate like a fighter would just start generalization of the two classes which is a bad thing.


My idea would be to give a paladin a passive aggro using his aura.....to upset demons,devils and undead. I say this because in D&D DMs often target paladins with those mobs since the aura of good makes a paladin out to be everything these creatures hate.

[Cylinwolf]

NOT FAIR this game is seriously broken that only arcane casters have firewall such a powerful spell it's time to FIX THIS CLASS Turbine.

WHY should we have to choose between multiclassing to get benefits from multiple classes and staying pure to get the most benefit from a class? Until ALL classes get ALL abilities EQUALLY it is just NOT FAIR and NOT BALANCED!

Opening up more options for classes and not pigeonholing them into specific builds is such a horrible thing, I know.

It's like the only thing that the fighter class brings to the table is intimidate!

[hecate355]

NOT FAIR this game is seriously broken that only arcane casters have firewall such a powerful spell it's time to FIX THIS CLASS Turbine.

WHY should we have to choose between multiclassing to get benefits from multiple classes and staying pure to get the most benefit from a class? Until ALL classes get ALL abilities EQUALLY it is just NOT FAIR and NOT BALANCED!

how about rolling your own toaster if you envy them so much? you want everything added on one char, seriously?

if your rant is about firewall being too good compared to other spells, its only half true there are whole endgame packs where you cant do anything with firewall, plus even firewall and caster are limited, each class is limited in its own way

after gianthold upwards, things get pretty well balanced

[Visty]

no

[Aschbart]

I think what the OP is trying to say is that its harder than it should be for a paladin to grab and hold aggro. However trying to give him intimidate like a fighter would just start generalization of the two classes which is a bad thing.


My idea would be to give a paladin a passive aggro using his aura.....to upset demons,devils and undead. I say this because in D&D DMs often target paladins with those mobs since the aura of good makes a paladin out to be everything these creatures hate.

Check out Defender of Syberis III Superior Defensive Stance and add Paladin Divine Righteousness I. I shouldn't even have to point these out ....

Besides, many mobs can't be intimidated, and fighters have *less* means for hate-tanking than paladins do!

[Xatasha]

Check out Defender of Syeris Defensive Stance and add Divine Righteousness. I shouldn't even have to point these out to anyone who thinks he can contribute to this discussion....

I am saying it should be base line. That all paladins should have it

[ReaperAlexEU]

the very nature of what intimidate and diplomacy does has been changed from PnP to DDO.

intimidate is not for gaining aggro in PnP, and diplomacy is not for making monsters hit your friends in PnP.

diplomacy takes 1 full minute to try and make an NPC more friendly towards your group. has your party just walked into a crowded tavern and its all gone quiet and everyone is looking at you? at the back you think you saw some blades being drawn. no problem! let the paladin step forwards and work his silvered tongue so the whole party can drink in peace.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm

intimidate takes 1 full minute to try and make the NPC more helpful towards you. there is a link to diplomacy skill for more information. after you've left the NPC will then be more hostile to you than when you first met them. your following a lead on your quest and the NPC its lead you to doesnt want to talk. with no silver tongued paladin about your barbarian decides to rough the guy up a bit to loosen his tongue. it works and he starts to babble giving more information than you needed. after you leave however the NPC feels resentment towards you for the way he was treated, if you ever meet again he's sure to hate you.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/intimidate.htm

so, thats why the paly has diplo as a class skill. any paladin trying to convince an NPC to attack his friends instead of him self (assuming there is no cunning plan involved) would probably be stripped of his paladin abilities and become a fallen paladin, nothing more than a fighter. the implementation of diplomacy in DDO is directly opposed to the way a paladin would use it in PnP. getting a monster to hit your squishy friends is something that goes against the strict paladin moral code of conduct.

standing in the middle of battle and getting the monsters to hit you instead of your squishy friends is exactly what the paladin wants to be doing, it fits their moral code of conduct like a glove.

so no Aschbart, the relationship between class and skills has not been preserved, its been perverted.

[Aschbart]

how about rolling your own toaster if you envy them so much? you want everything added on one char, seriously?

if your rant is about firewall being too good compared to other spells, its only half true there are whole endgame packs where you cant do anything with firewall, plus even firewall and caster are limited, each class is limited in its own way

after gianthold upwards, things get pretty well balanced

Roflmao. Considering the huge joke your ending your statement with I wonder why you are unable to read between other peoples' posts' lines. Try adding to your 'Understand Sarcasm' skill.

[Aschbart]

I am saying it should be base line. That all paladins should have it

Why? If you build a DPS machine, what do you need it for? Divine Righteousness already will be more effective than fully ranked Intimidate on a DPS fighter if you did your spec well, and that is only one AP to spend, whereas a fighter would have to spend 23 skill points to be less effective at it.

Seriously. Why? I don't get it.

[Xatasha]

Why? If you build a DPS machine, what do you need it for? Divine Righteousness already will be more effective than fully ranked Intimidate on a DPS fighter if you did your spec well, and that is only one AP to spend, whereas a fighter would have to spend 23 skill points to be less effective at it.

Seriously. Why? I don't get it.

From what I have read paladins are having problems with aggro. Here is the link that has some info on the topic.


http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=218542,
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...00&postcount=3

Again the OP seems to be having problems with aggro and is looking at the fighter wanting what they have. IMO he should be focused more on twinking the paladin's given abilities. Also has Divine Righteousness been fixed the links said it was buggy but its been a few months.

[Aschbart]

so no Aschbart, the relationship between class and skills has not been preserved, its been perverted.

I'm not denying most of the things you said, and yes, the way skills work in DDO has undergone some serious changes. I'm not happy with many of these 'adaptions' myself, but for the most part I realize it has been neccessary to meaningfully convert a tabletop game into a MMO.

That said, many of the base mechanics are still the same as in PnP, and the list of class skills per class (as far as they're implemented) is one of them. even if individual skills now do utterly differnt skills, they didn't become inherently more or less useful, and the number of class skills per class, meaningful or not, is still balanced.

Yes, the skills now do different things, and sometimes they were warped beyond recognition. Yes, Intimidate, specifically, worked quite differently in PnP. But then there was no concept of 'tanking' in PnP either, and the discussion started by the OP thus has no grounds at all in relation to PnP. Yes, Diplomacy, also, now workd quite differently, but not quite as much as you indicate: in PnP it was used to shed aggro for the group, in DDO it only works for you, personally. Hard to understand why this change was introduced, until you consider that DDO now has 'tanking' - and suddenly it makes much more sense! Diplo is not to get monsters hit your friends, it is to make monsters hit your tank!

Anyway, as there is no tanking in PnP, this discussion is OT.

I made my point about Pally vs. Fighter tanking in DDO.

[Sker-lyn]

The problem as I see it is that the roles of intimidate and diplomacy are exchance in DDO for fighting purposes.

Nobody can tell me this is based in the pnp D&D 'cause I can't see a paladin in table to send aggro to another companion in the party using diplomacy. Isn't exactly a thing I can call honorable... sure in table diplo is to avoid combat, but complete, not sending angry mobs into another party members.

Should a paladin in DDO have intimidate? I don't think so, 'cause that isn't something a paladin should have either.

Solution? Maybe diplomacy is a bigger, more multifaceted ability than intimidate and should have other uses... Maybe devs could make a way to use the ability both ways, maybe with an innate feat with two abilities of diplomacy: one to hold aggro (maybe with lesser duration than intimidate, maybe easier to break) and another to send mobs away.

It's just an idea, but anyway maybe could be very annoying to implement...

Anyway, in the same way I can't see a paladin intimidating, I can't imagine one telling the bad guys: Hey, do you see the wizard there? He's weaker than me, go for him.

[sephiroth1084]

The relation between skills and classes in DDO is exactly the same as in PnP. This game is based on D&D, and there are already way too many rules Turbine decided to deviate from. Every additional deviation will just make the game balance more broken.

/not signed

That is not true at all! The way skills are used is completely different in DDO than it is in PnP and many of the skills characters get are nearly, or completely, useless. Paladins get Concentration (something not really useful for them in PnP, since they have too few spells per day to be worrying about it) and Diplomacy (given that paladins have among the best saves in the game, good HP and potentially excellent AC, they shouldn't, or very rarely should, be shedding aggro onto their fellow teammates).

Skills should have been reevaluated long ago. Look at how many useful skills are on each skill list. Hell, look at the wizard's: 2 class skills with 6-9 skill points per level, everything else they take is cross-class.

[Aaxeyu]

/Signed.

Being able to make pure paladin intimitanks would be good.

[Xatasha]

That is not true at all! The way skills are used is completely different in DDO than it is in PnP and many of the skills characters get are nearly, or completely, useless. Paladins get Concentration (something not really useful for them in PnP, since they have too few spells per day to be worrying about it) and Diplomacy (given that paladins have among the best saves in the game, good HP and potentially excellent AC, they shouldn't, or very rarely should, be shedding aggro onto their fellow teammates).

Skills should have been reevaluated long ago. Look at how many useful skills are on each skill list. Hell, look at the wizard's: 2 class skills with 6-9 skill points per level, everything else they take is cross-class.

The skills work the same way as PnP the problem the game is limited by its very nature as a computer game. On a table top game I can force players in a logical way to use any skill I want them too. In DDO and instance will be the same no matter what. So with a computer game some skills are better than others

However sometimes new content throws a wrench into the mix. Partycrashers come( spot,buff, diplomacy and intimidate) to mind and upcoming U6 with swim

[Aschbart]

From what I have read paladins are having problems with aggro. Here is the link that has some info on the topic.


http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=218542,
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...00&postcount=3

Again the OP seems to be having problems with aggro and is looking at the fighter wanting what they have. IMO he should be focused more on twinking the paladin's given abilities. Also has Divine Righteousness been fixed the links said it was buggy but its been a few months.

I am aware of these links, even studied them carefully in my attempt to build a paladin tank, but ultimately decided against it based on the fact tanking isn't needed in 9%% of the content (or that, at least, was the gist of the advice I was given). I may return to these plans in the future, when I got a more rounded picture of what to expect.

Note that intimidate is only mentioned as one of the advantages for multiclassing into fighter, the bonus feats being the main other reason. Nowhere do these threads indicate that you cannot do without intimidate. That said, the paladin cap is useful for DPS, which in turn would help the hate tanking the paladin class is ultimately much better suited for than the fighter. If you want intimitanking, the paladin capstone isn't all that useful, so giving it up is a non-issue. As far as I understand the OP, that was the gist of his complaint (i. e. having to give up the capstone in order to be able to intimitank).

[EazyWeazy]

the very nature of what intimidate and diplomacy does has been changed from PnP to DDO.

intimidate is not for gaining aggro in PnP, and diplomacy is not for making monsters hit your friends in PnP.

diplomacy takes 1 full minute to try and make an NPC more friendly towards your group. has your party just walked into a crowded tavern and its all gone quiet and everyone is looking at you? at the back you think you saw some blades being drawn. no problem! let the paladin step forwards and work his silvered tongue so the whole party can drink in peace.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm

intimidate takes 1 full minute to try and make the NPC more helpful towards you. there is a link to diplomacy skill for more information. after you've left the NPC will then be more hostile to you than when you first met them. your following a lead on your quest and the NPC its lead you to doesnt want to talk. with no silver tongued paladin about your barbarian decides to rough the guy up a bit to loosen his tongue. it works and he starts to babble giving more information than you needed. after you leave however the NPC feels resentment towards you for the way he was treated, if you ever meet again he's sure to hate you.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/intimidate.htm

so, thats why the paly has diplo as a class skill. any paladin trying to convince an NPC to attack his friends instead of him self (assuming there is no cunning plan involved) would probably be stripped of his paladin abilities and become a fallen paladin, nothing more than a fighter. the implementation of diplomacy in DDO is directly opposed to the way a paladin would use it in PnP. getting a monster to hit your squishy friends is something that goes against the strict paladin moral code of conduct.

standing in the middle of battle and getting the monsters to hit you instead of your squishy friends is exactly what the paladin wants to be doing, it fits their moral code of conduct like a glove.

so no Aschbart, the relationship between class and skills has not been preserved, its been perverted.

Well said. +1