Monk intimitank maximum DR possible?

[wax_on_wax_off]

So I was thinking about making a tank build but not sure what how viable monk is for the qualities that I wish to have in a tank.

Maximum DR a monk can get:
10 epic as base (or 8/- grandmaster of earth)

+

10 = (15 bab + 5 DP clickies)/2
3 grandmaster of earth
= 23/epic or 21/-
No room for two weapon blocking

Human is the only choice to get intimidate up high enough to be workable in most situations.

32 point build.
Str 16 = 14 + 2 tome
Dex 17 = 15 + 2 tome
Con 21 = 14 + 5 levels + 2 tome
Int 10 = 8 + 2 tome
Wis 16 = 14 + 2 tome
cha 16 = 14 +2 tome

7 base feats:improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting, least dragonmark of sentinel, lesser dragonmark of sentinel, greater dragonmark of sentinel, cleave (Shintao prereq), improved critical: bludgeoning
3 bonus monk feats: toughness, power attack, two weapon fighting
1 human bonus feat: skill focus: intimidate

There would be quite a few options on how to play. Earth stance for max blocking DR and maximum HP and ki generation while being hit. Fire stance for positive healing amp (with bracers). Water stance for high stunning fist DCs.

Edit: swapped build around a bit. No room for CE if taking full intimidate lines. Likely not enough room to take all desired enhancements.

[Quijonsith]

Human monk/pali/fighter. Healing amp IS my DR. Mine is a variant of this build. I can tank sullly in elite ToD and as soon as my cha skills GS is done i can intimilock sully in elite VoD. So long as you're blocking you don't get cursed.


A couple of points for you: blocking DR is just that:, the DR you have when blocking. It doesn't stack with epic DR at 20 (which only a pure monk can get anyway, no full intimidate ranks).

Blocking DR is based on actual base attack bonus, not the flurry base attack bonus. This means that a pure monk at 20 would only have 15/2=7 + earth stance.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Human monk/pali/fighter. Healing amp IS my DR. Mine is a variant of this build. I can tank sullly in elite ToD and as soon as my cha skills GS is done i can intimilock sully in elite VoD. So long as you're blocking you don't get cursed.


A couple of points for you: blocking DR is just that:, the DR you have when blocking. It doesn't stack with epic DR at 20 (which only a pure monk can get anyway, no full intimidate ranks).

Blocking DR is based on actual base attack bonus, not the flurry base attack bonus. This means that a pure monk at 20 would only have 15/2=7 + earth stance.

Blocking DR stacks with base DR I'm fairly certain. Hence my workings above.
I can dig that blocking DR may be based on BAB rather than BAB + flurry of blows. However, it would be quite possible to keep divine power clickies ticking over or UMD them.
I considered splashing but considering the Ki a pure level 20 monk can generate I can imagine that I could keep moment of clarity proc'd for an extra +5 (it lasts 10 seconds but that's a long time to reprepare it with the huge ki generation a level 20 monk can have in either fire or earth stance).
Add this to the +4 from badger IV, +2 from walk of the sun (which is listed twice in that build that you linked) and possibly a higher starting charisma considering it's synergy with UMD and Shining Star and I think the intimidate values could get quite workable.

This would let you hate tank or intimitank in either fire or earth stance. To hate tank I believe significant hate generation items would be necessary.

Warforged, dwarf or human seem obvious choices. Dwarf would be my choice in the hope that dwarven defender PrE would turn up. This build would be most appropriate with +3 or +4 tomes and a 34 or 36 point build.

[Alexandryte]

You seem to want to do two things at once which do not work.

You cannot block and gain active blocking DR (in addition to passive 10/epic) AND attack to gain Ki.

Passive DR doesnt stack, and TWB only works if you have two weapons (ie non-handwraps) equipt.

You generally dont focus both hate tanking AND intim tanking and especially not on a monk due to the fact you gain neither from class. The hate tanking only works if you are actively attacking (not blocking) and generally you would only pull out appropriate numbers with all hate items and maybe WF hate gen and using handwraps. Remember Barbarians tend to be myopic when it comes to doing damage....they wont pause periodically for you to maintain a tenuous lead on hate.

Breakdown:

Hate tank or Intim
Blocking DR or Hate
Kamas for TWB or Handwraps for Hate


And the final thing: unless you have been playing for a very long time and have +3s or +4 tomes stored away, NEVER require them for a build to work.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

You seem to want to do two things at once which do not work.

You cannot block and gain active blocking DR (in addition to passive 10/epic) AND attack to gain Ki.

FWIW, One of either the stances or animal paths (not sure which) gives you Ki upon being hit.

[wax_on_wax_off]

You seem to want to do two things at once which do not work.

You cannot block and gain active blocking DR (in addition to passive 10/epic) AND attack to gain Ki.

Passive DR doesnt stack, and TWB only works if you have two weapons (ie non-handwraps) equipt.

You generally dont focus both hate tanking AND intim tanking and especially not on a monk due to the fact you gain neither from class. The hate tanking only works if you are actively attacking (not blocking) and generally you would only pull out appropriate numbers with all hate items and maybe WF hate gen and using handwraps. Remember Barbarians tend to be myopic when it comes to doing damage....they wont pause periodically for you to maintain a tenuous lead on hate.

Breakdown:

Hate tank or Intim
Blocking DR or Hate
Kamas for TWB or Handwraps for Hate


And the final thing: unless you have been playing for a very long time and have +3s or +4 tomes stored away, NEVER require them for a build to work.

Earth stance gives ki upon being hit or critical hit so you can block and gain Ki quite easily. Additionally, a level 20 monk gains Ki when below a certain amount due to the capstone. Additionally, badger philosophy IV lets you regenerate Ki when below 33% HP. With a large enough HP pool it would be quite reasonable with a competent healer along to spend some time below this threshold.

This would be some reasonable Ki generation while in blocking mode. 10 epic + 10 blocking + 3 earth stance + 2 TWB for blocking DR while intimidating.

Fire stance gives extra ki generation while attacking (intimidating optional, you can attack and intimidate) and healing amp. Hate tanking would obviously be very difficult.

[Quijonsith]

What exactly do you intend to intimidate? If it's raids you won't be able to get enough to be effective. See this thread for DCs of raid bosses.

I have a monk intimitank with full ranks, good charisma, and way of the badger 3. It still takes alot of gear to get enough intimidate lock down raid bosses. A pure monk will be 12 ranks behind. Moment of clarity is only a +5 and for only 10 seconds. Using intimidate takes 2 seconds that you can't do anything else and it only lasts for 6 seconds. That leaves you 4 seconds to activate your other abilities, clickies, wands, strikes, etc. Given how glitchy the strikes can be in that sometimes they don't activate good luck getting off moment of clarity when it fades without losing intimilock IF you could get enough intimidate.

If you can get enough initimidate without full ranks for your goals then by all means go for it. If I can get to 71 with 23 ranks without moment of clarity, walk of the sun, or inspire competence then you should be able to get to 59 (-12 ranks, +1 way of the badger 4, -1 fighter intimidate), which is enough for more raid bosses than I expected.

If you try for this you should definitely go for high HP. You won't be able to hate tank with the stat distribution it takes to have good AC.

Part of the key to how much intimidate I have is from being human for the dragon mark. The first mark of the sentinel grants +2 intimidate and opens the first 'deneith intimidate' enhancement. Every mark after that further opens deneith intimidate. I only have the least mark so only deneith intimidate 1. The question is can you fit all the intimidate feats into a pure monk build?

Skill focus, Bullheaded, and least dragonmark of the sentinel take up 3 feats. Adding the other 2 dragonmarks takes up a total of 5. Most monk builds only have 3 feats to play with given the TWF line, IC:B, toughness. It might be doable.

Hmm, well while I'm here let's have a look:
11 feats available to a human monk non finesse

3 dragonmarks
2 intimidate feats
3 TWF line
1 IC:B
1 PA
1 toughness
=11

Surprisingly it's doable. You could drop improved crit for dodge if you want ninja spy for more DPS. I use metalline of deception to keep my sneak attack.

If you decide to give it a try let us know how it works for you.

Lastly: active (blocking) DR does not stack with epic DR. The epic DR we get at 20 is not a base to be added to.

Also: if you're gonna try for divine power to up your blocking DR you'll want UMD for longer duration/higher caster level wands. Clickies are only 1 minute and you have to switch into them and back out to your normal gear. I can tell you from personal experience that even a 5 minute duration wand buff goes away fast when tanking a raid boss. I have a hard time with 5 minute shield wands. Now that I can use 10min shield wands it's much easier.

Ok, I know I said lastly and also already. Well one more point that is more of a question: do divine power clickies even do anything for a 20 monk? The only ones I've ever seen say they make your BaB equal to the caster level of the item which I always see as level 7. I thought that since our BaB at 20 is already above what that would be I thought it wouldn't do anything.

EDIT: The reason the build I linked lists walk of the sun twice is one set of numbers is intimidate (the first set) the other is UMD. He forgot to put the skill name above those sections. He's not adding walk of the sun twice to intimidate.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I realise that DDOwiki cannot be taken as gospel however I have copied this out of it:

Active DR

Player characters (but not monsters, apparently) gain "Active DR" when they actively block by holding down the shift key. Active DR is displayed as "Blocking DR" in your inventory sheet. Active DR cannot be bypassed. Furthermore, Active DR stacks with any Passive DR (from the single, highest applicable source).

Unless monk epic DR is a special case then it should count towards this. Is it written somewhere that it doesn't stack? Where do you get this information? The 10/epic wouldn't be included on the blocking DR tally on the inventory page as base DR is checked on each attack to see which type of DR applies and then active DR is added on top of that if you are blocking.

I have a good friend with a warforged pure FvS intimitank/hatetank. He seems confident that geared out that he will be able to attain the intimidate scores necessary to intimidate bosses. He is also confident that his FvS level 20 DR stacks with his active shield blocking DR.

Intimidate:
11 Ranks
6 Greensteel
6 Charisma modifier (14 base + 2 tome + 6 item)
15 Competence item
4 Way of the Badger IV
3 Skill focus: Intimidate
6 Shintao monk III
6 full sentinel feats plus intim enhancements
4 Greater Heroism
1 Yugoloth Charisma potion
2 walk of the sun
----
64 intimidate (+2 bard, +1 luck, +5 moment of clarity - 72 raid buffed)

I think there is some epic gear coming out that will push this up again?

Divine Power sets your BAB to that of your level, not the caster level of the item. I just logged onto a level 20 toon with 14 BAB and used a DP clicky and BAB was then listed as +14/+20. In addition, my blocking DR jumps by +3 when I use the clicky.

A roll of a 1 on an intimidate check is always a fail, right? I'm not sure if I've missed any gear in the above tally for intimidate. Hypothetically, with +3 exceptional, +1 human adapdability, +4 tome could add another +3, I think there is a +5 intimidate epic item. That pushes it up to 80.

Ding ding ding, it is now possible to lock down Xyzzy with a pure monk build and completed epic gear with U7.

[Quijonsith]

Interesting about the DR. Perhaps I'm wrong then.

Due to the reasons I mentioned I really wouldn't consider moment of clarity any kind of maintainable buff for your intimidate.

I've never seen divine power wands, but then again I don't look for them. What I do carry, however, are level 5 and 10 shield wands. Search the AH under wands and set the level range for the level you are looking for. They drop as random loot. Don't buy them from wand vendors.

Also interesting info about divine power. Either it's glitched (wouldn't be the first time) or it's description is wrong (really really wouldn't be the first time). Or I remember what I read incorrectly (yeah, also wouldn't be the first time).

As for a 1 on intimidate, no it's not autofail. I've gotten plenty of 'success' on a 1 with intimidate.

One more point for you: AFAIK only the first sentinel feat gives a bonus to your intimidate. The rest give you other abilities and open up further 'denieth intimidate' enhancements.

... Then again I think you calculated that. +2 from least dragon mark and +4 from enhancements would give the +6 you listed.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Interesting about the DR. Perhaps I'm wrong then.

Due to the reasons I mentioned I really wouldn't consider moment of clarity any kind of maintainable buff for your intimidate.

I've never seen divine power wands, but then again I don't look for them. What I do carry, however, are level 5 and 10 shield wands. Search the AH under wands and set the level range for the level you are looking for. They drop as random loot. Don't buy them from wand vendors.

Also interesting info about divine power. Either it's glitched (wouldn't be the first time) or it's description is wrong (really really wouldn't be the first time). Or I remember what I read incorrectly (yeah, also wouldn't be the first time).

As for a 1 on intimidate, no it's not autofail. I've gotten plenty of 'success' on a 1 with intimidate.

One more point for you: AFAIK only the first sentinel feat gives a bonus to your intimidate. The rest give you other abilities and open up further 'denieth intimidate' enhancements.

... Then again I think you calculated that. +2 from least dragon mark and +4 from enhancements would give the +6 you listed.

Yeah, I'd pretty much consider the second 2 dragonmark feats as optional considering they only give +1 for the first feat and +2 for the second feat at a cost of 9 APs. Very expensive option.

I'm not willing to give up on moment of clarity. With enough Ki I think I would have no problem proccing off the 3 moves between 1 intimidate and the next to ready the finishing move. I've got plenty of experience with this on my light path monk. The question is whether there is enough Ki. But considering the 3 sources of Ki generation available I don't think this would be a problem either.

The 2 points:
1. Can it be used quickly enough. You mentioned that intimidate takes 2 seconds to use (I think it's closer to 1 but ok) and intimidate can be used once every 6 seconds. That leaves 4 or 5 seconds to use void I - healing curse - void II straight in a line off my quickbar. I can load ingredient lines for shroud crafting in this time ...

2. Ki generation.
a. Assuming a 600 HP pool every time I dropped below 200 HP i would get some Ki i assume from way of badger.
(generally tanks will dip below 1/3 of their HP bar while tanking a boss I've noticed, with a good HP pool this isn't a risk and conserves spellcasters SP considering that they'll often heal for 500+ hp).
b. Every time I am below my concentration score I will have positive Ki generation. Between X1 and X2 concentration I will not have decay.
(concentration: 23 ranks + 15 item + 11 con + 10 monk capstone = 59 easy in earth stance for roughly ~120 Ki upon entering a boss fight or more with a meditation)
c. Every time I am hit I gain 1 Ki, every critical hit (despite 100% fort) I gain 5 Ki.

Moment of Clarity would cost 16 Ki with Shintao monk I or 21 Ki without.

Moment of Clarity wouldn't have to be used every 10 seconds. It could be used, intimidate, intimidate, expire, reproc, intimidate, intimidate, expire, reproc etc. More like every 12-13 seconds.

I think I would reallocate lesser and greater dragonmarks to two weapon blocking and combat expertise. If dwarven defender or deneith dragonmark heir ever eventuate I think it will give the build more focus.

[wax_on_wax_off]

So looking at U7 and pure monk intimitank seems more plausible than ever.

If my maths is right then it is possible with full epic gear for a pure monk with 14 starting charisma to lock down Xyzzy on elite (just). The intimi score is the 8th or 9th post i think.

After that the only question is if it is worthwhile for a monk to have the aggro.

2 modes, fire stance or earth stance
1. Fire stance: Ki generation from attacking and intimidating which is good for a level 20 monk. Healing amp from human race + healing finisher + fire stance bracers + triple positive kama?

2. Earth stance: Ki generation from being hit in earth stance, Blocking DR 23/epic or 21/- isn't horrible.

Ki generation in either stance: way of the badger IV gives Ki generation when under 33% HP, i bet it procs every time you dip under and then per second that you are under maybe? Also Ki generation for monk capstone when under a certain amount.

Either way, constant healing finisher with as much healing amp as you can find would be the way to play.

[rimble]

A pure Monk won't handle some of the higher-end stuff (missing out on 12 Intimidate is just hard to make up), but can handle a good part of it. I'm working on a Human Healing Amp IntimiMonk. Gotta get through another two Paladin TR's first so it will be awhile. Right now planning on 18 Monk / 1 Fighter / 1 Rogue:

Intimidate
23 Ranks
15 Item
6 Shintao III
5 Epic Gloves of the Claw
4 Tenacious Badger IV (good spot to save APs if you can, the 1/2/3/4 cost gets expensive)
1 Fighter Indimidate I
6 GS Cha Skills Item (+6 Cha Skills, Lightning Strike Guard)
2 HoGF (Good Luck)
4 Greater Heroism
2 Coin Lord favor
3 Cha
3 SF: Intimidate
2 Bullheaded
3 Least DM of Sentinel (and Deneith Intimidation I)
2 Walk of the Sun
-----
81 self-buffed

550 - 600 hit points, 417% Healing Amp. Should be pretty tough I hope.

Of course, max UMD for ~450ish Heal scrolls will be cool too.

The 1 Rogue is really for the Intimidate and UMD. But, there's really no difference between 19 Monk and 18 Monk, so the 1 Fighter is tossed in to allow for another Toughness and Fighter Toughness I (+32ish HP), and Fighter Intimidate I.

I'm still debating taking it Dark path. The 25% Incorporeality is a huge bonus there, especially when you're getting healing from an outside source (like you will be when tanking a raid). The only real problem there is a loss of 8 Intimidate--6 from Shintao III, 2 from Walk of the Sun. The +2 from WotS can be regained from another Monk, but the 6 from Shintao III would be gone. I might save this change for when the character is totally maxed out (+7 Cha Item, +3 Exc Cha, +3/+4 Cha tome, etc)--it'd be a long way off.

As for Max DR, honestly, I'm still trying to figure that out myself. I'll try and look on my pure 20 Monk and update this if I remember.

[wax_on_wax_off]

A pure Monk won't handle some of the higher-end stuff (missing out on 12 Intimidate is just hard to make up), but can handle a good part of it. I'm working on a Human Healing Amp IntimiMonk. Gotta get through another two Paladin TR's first so it will be awhile. Right now planning on 18 Monk / 1 Fighter / 1 Rogue:

Intimidate
23 Ranks
15 Item
6 Shintao III
5 Epic Gloves of the Claw
4 Tenacious Badger IV (good spot to save APs if you can, the 1/2/3/4 cost gets expensive)
1 Fighter Indimidate I
6 GS Cha Skills Item (+6 Cha Skills, Lightning Strike Guard)
2 HoGF (Good Luck)
4 Greater Heroism
2 Coin Lord favor
3 Cha
3 SF: Intimidate
2 Bullheaded
3 Least DM of Sentinel (and Deneith Intimidation I)
2 Walk of the Sun
-----
81 self-buffed

550 - 600 hit points, 417% Healing Amp. Should be pretty tough I hope.

Of course, max UMD for ~450ish Heal scrolls will be cool too.

The 1 Rogue is really for the Intimidate and UMD. But, there's really no difference between 19 Monk and 18 Monk, so the 1 Fighter is tossed in to allow for another Toughness and Fighter Toughness I (+32ish HP), and Fighter Intimidate I.

I'm still debating taking it Dark path. The 25% Incorporeality is a huge bonus there, especially when you're getting healing from an outside source (like you will be when tanking a raid). The only real problem there is a loss of 8 Intimidate--6 from Shintao III, 2 from Walk of the Sun. The +2 from WotS can be regained from another Monk, but the 6 from Shintao III would be gone. I might save this change for when the character is totally maxed out (+7 Cha Item, +3 Exc Cha, +3/+4 Cha tome, etc)--it'd be a long way off.

As for Max DR, honestly, I'm still trying to figure that out myself. I'll try and look on my pure 20 Monk and update this if I remember.

you're only giving yourself 3 on charisma there which is 8 base + 6 item + 2 tome.
I think for a build like this you would definitely want to take 14 starting charisma for intimidate, UMD, shining star and the new shintao monk gaze stun which i read is charisma based.
Lots of charisma synergy there.

With 14 starting charisma should be easy to get an extra +3. Exceptionals and better tomes are just gravy after that.

I was thinking that alternating human skill boost and moment of clarity should be pretty easy to get an extra +2 to +5 to intimidate for 2:30. I'm not sure if it is feasible to proc moment of clarity every 10 seconds, you could do us a favour and see if you can manage it on your level 20 monk if he has master/grandmaster fire or earth stance. If you could proc it a few times in a row then hit the human skill boost it would give you the time to refresh other short term buffs like walk of the sun.

Adding a yugo charisma pot would get you an extra +1 too. That all adds up to a fair bit over 80 which is the highest current score needed i think.

I think it's possible to do this build on a pure monk and it is easy to appreciate the difference between pure and non-pure monk when considering monk capstone, 10/epic DR etc.

UMD and intimidate as a class skill can be worked around i think with walk of the sun, decent charisma, moment of clarity etc. Obviously, trying to actually use moment of clarity is fairly clicking intensive, but that's why we like the monk class isn't it?

[rimble]

you're only giving yourself 3 on charisma there which is 8 base + 6 item + 2 tome.
I think for a build like this you would definitely want to take 14 starting charisma for intimidate, UMD, shining star and the new shintao monk gaze stun which i read is charisma based.
Lots of charisma synergy there.

There's no where I would feel comfortable taking those points from. Maybe after you get enough +4 tomes to drop Con/Wis to 14 (and still meet the 18 requirement for Grandmaster stances) it'd work...but that's just so far down the road, for me at least, that I won't entertain the thought. Don't want to make a doorstop Monk.

I was thinking that alternating human skill boost and moment of clarity should be pretty easy to get an extra +2 to +5 to intimidate for 2:30. I'm not sure if it is feasible to proc moment of clarity every 10 seconds, you could do us a favour and see if you can manage it on your level 20 monk if he has master/grandmaster fire or earth stance. If you could proc it a few times in a row then hit the human skill boost it would give you the time to refresh other short term buffs like walk of the sun.

I wouldn't feel comfortable counting on anything with a 10 and 20 second duration to meet Intimidate thresholds. It might be doable, I just don't know, but I feel like that would be pushing your luck.

I think it's possible to do this build on a pure monk and it is easy to appreciate the difference between pure and non-pure monk when considering monk capstone, 10/epic DR etc.

It'd be nice to pull off, and I still may do it...so what if I need to pass tanking duties to someone else for Epic DQ? Right now it's just a group-up-and-spank party anyways...don't know if the Waves change will alter the strategy.

EDIT:

I played with DR a little last night on my 20 Monk in Earth Stance IV, but was a little too tired and am afraid I might have made poor observations. One that I'm sure about was that I had both DR 10/Epic and 8/-, and they didn't stack. So of course the 10/Epic was catching everything and the 8/- was useless. I don't think that's news, just starting with the basics. I'll try to get more info while blocking tonight.

It's actually a point in favor of the multi-class splash I think. Sure, most of the time I plan on being in Fire Stance for the Jidz-Tet'ka +25% Healing Amp (at which point pure Monk with DR 10/Epic would be ahead on the DR side of things)...but on big nasty things I'll go into Earth IV for the +40 Hit Points and DR 8/-. Epic DQ will bypass the 10/Epic, not 8/-. Sure, sure...it's a pretty insignificant amount of DR compared to what she's doing...but it's something. I'll try to find out if blocking helps any.