The "Slippery Slope" Argument

[woundweaver]

You do neither, you leave it as it is, just because something is in game doesnt mean it should be able to be beat by everyone. They should be encouraged to keep trying to beat it till they can, not given an easy way to do it.

this, too
same principle we use to figure out how to beat the new raids you guys give us. we try, fail, try again till we figure them out and make it a science. after a while, the challenge is gone, and it becomes common practice, anyways. again, look at abbott for an example. people still have a time figuring the puzzles out, and its been dumbed down a few times i know of. its beatable, but challenging as hell and not for the "weak of character", so to say. so difficult, its mostly kept private when ran. most dont run it, or take the time to flag, its that intimidating to some. they go run reaver, instead. who lost what? nobody. both sides have a quest that is a challenge to their playstyle, and a win for turbine because both are, after all, playing the game

[Trillea]

Tarrant, as to your question, I think that you should leave the monster as-is, sell the store item, but have the store-bought items unusable on hard or higher difficulties. The items acquired ingame (like the beholder necklace or disease immunity items) would still work.

[mystafyi]

Tarrant, the easiest solution is of course, already in the game in a form, Difficulty modes.
Make the hardest monsters "nerfed" on casual, so that the lowest skilled % of players can get past it and still follow the story lines. I am sure this wont be done since turbine would miss out on store purchases.

Speaking of story lines how many of those players complaining about not being able to follow story lines have actually ran the abbot raid BEFORE the shroud?? as per the story line

Let the nerfs continue untill there is no challenge and everyone finds something more challenging/rewarding to play

[Dragonhyde]

Or institute a hard core server the challenges have been reduced on our old servers unless you enforce an honor code which online is a big lolz then your basically hoping that everyone in your party/raid is on the same par wont think that it takes chugging tons of pots or the like to beat it.

Either give us the option of hard and elite being challenging again as Garth put or give us a server where we have the option of running quests the way they used to be, with fail mechanics in place, hard traps, the need to use tactics and strategy to get pass mobs and bosses. Locked rooms that need skill to open and make it a server where your starting out fresh. Somethings got to give though fine you want to make things easy for those who wont bother to rise to the occasion but what about us who loved the game for its challenge? Are we not important anymore?

I used to think the idea for a separate server with such was unnecessary simply put ddo was not so care bear as it is now, there was no dungeon scaling, casual, hirelings or the like, if you werent skilled at soloing you didnt do it you grouped and hoped that your group had some sort of competence. I miss those days and from what im reading im not alone in this feeling. So what about those of us who have considered quitting due to lack of challenge? Or do we have to actually do so before the company takes notice?

While I personally would prefer hard/elite going back to challenging, I would not mind a so called challenge server as Kalari suggests. If devs are worried that there would be a mass exodus of vets from other servers just make it a no transfer server.

[dragonruler]

Hi guys - interesting discussion here. Thank you all for keeping it civil.



I have a question about this, and I'll use a hypothetical situation to set it up:

There is a monster in DDO that can be very difficult to fight. Some players really enjoy the challenge, and the monster was designed to be challenging for those that are looking for this kind of thing. However, some players find this monster so frustrating that it causes them to either avoid that part of the game altogether, or possibly even quit to go find something less stressful.

Now under those circumstances, would you prefer that we made the monster easier for everyone, or that we sold an item in the store that would make this encounter easier for those that wanted it, but left the monster challenging for players seeking that kind of experience?

Nice use of reverse psychology Tarrant

See what he did was give it a situation where it directly puts you into a state of your choice is a or b.

Well I choose c! C being rather than A making said monster easier and making more people mad and B creating an easy button item to buy off the store you instead...instead create a section that gives brief descriptions about said monsters (because we all know there really aren't that many monsters in the game as of right now) such as alignment, strengths and weaknesses, and possible hidden abilities (such as devil teleportation or beholder eye beams).

[Pugsley]

Conventional wisdom outside of DDO says microtransactions should only be for cosmetic and (maybe) convenience items.

I think Turbine knows that, but they took a gamble that players would tolerate more. It paid off.

They know players may not like it, but they do open their wallets, and that's what matters.

[Sker-lyn]

Hi guys - interesting discussion here. Thank you all for keeping it civil.



I have a question about this, and I'll use a hypothetical situation to set it up:

There is a monster in DDO that can be very difficult to fight. Some players really enjoy the challenge, and the monster was designed to be challenging for those that are looking for this kind of thing. However, some players find this monster so frustrating that it causes them to either avoid that part of the game altogether, or possibly even quit to go find something less stressful.

Now under those circumstances, would you prefer that we made the monster easier for everyone, or that we sold an item in the store that would make this encounter easier for those that wanted it, but left the monster challenging for players seeking that kind of experience?

I guess 'let an item IN GAME, that you can earn in game or manage to get in game, to overcome that difficult challenge' isn't an option, right??

I mean, you speak about keeping players but actually you are speaking about money... in fact, how to cow crippled players, those that are always looking for an easy buttom... making the easy buttom mommy and daddy's money.

I don't see bad that Turbine wants money... isn't a NGO and I know that pretty well, but I think that the thing that make Turbine different from Korean f2p games is that you can earn things in game AND the things you buy are actual flavour, like adventure packs and so on... Making something exclusive in the store isn't the way, is more like a korean game, more than something solid.

Of course, you could say: Hey, there are things to fight mummys and beholders in game.

Really? I mean... there are like... four items to fight beholders in game and only one is in a free to play quest (Beholder optic nerve) and isn't easy to get and it has only 8 charges... The trinket in the store have more charges, cost a little TP and is just a click away.

Mummy ultra-potion... You can fight mummy rot with pots for disease removal, pots for curses... You must to be alert to cure yourself, isn't something that you can take and ta-dá!! Impervious against mummys.

Looking at the numbers, what is gonna use the average player that cry over closed rests or un-killable by normal means trolls? TP and rock'n'roll... And I don't see that bad or extremelly bad IF, and this is important, you can get the same or almost the same in game... and really, in the same conditions, not something similar but lesser (like less charges or making a quest hoping Lady Luck smile at you in your 20th time).

That is the thing I don't like, that is the thing I fear: DDO transformed in some korean game where if you have money to burn you can get amazing in a ridiculous level 2.

I guess you need cash to make more amazing content (I have the feeling I couldn't see something high level with raid before I run to the strong arms of Guild Wars 2) but stepping away from the beginning, from what this game was since it went free to play... That isn't sane or clever...

You need to educate easy-buttoned players to earn things in game, to enjoy the actual play and not the purchase... You need to give the oportunity, the diversity... If you take the pattern to ease things in exchange for money, people will gonna grow disenchanted with the game and that can't create a strong, loyal player base. In the same moment they can't spend the cash so easy, they gonna throw the game away and play something else really free and when they have money again, they will spend it some place else.

You need to make the people love the game and they will use the store for a lot of reasons and with a happy smile in their faces... they even will spend TP just to help Turbine, like a token of appreciation for an amazing game (I spent money in Guild Wars just for that reason)... But if you use the people to cow money, if you make the store the only option or the vending machine of the win button, you're gonna lose and you are gonna lose badly... Cause, you know, you want to make money, but nobody wants to be cattle.

You must to make things achievable in game, first, and then offer the alternative in the store for... you know, people with money, people with anxiety to have something, for people in quests and bad memory to get something before entering... Not things pure in the store, that's a bad, bad move.

[woundweaver]

but as the vets leave, the question is will the new players now hang long enough to become vets with open wallets, and donate 3 and 4 years into this....getting easier and easier?

[Chai]

Hi guys - interesting discussion here. Thank you all for keeping it civil.



I have a question about this, and I'll use a hypothetical situation to set it up:

There is a monster in DDO that can be very difficult to fight. Some players really enjoy the challenge, and the monster was designed to be challenging for those that are looking for this kind of thing. However, some players find this monster so frustrating that it causes them to either avoid that part of the game altogether, or possibly even quit to go find something less stressful.

Now under those circumstances, would you prefer that we made the monster easier for everyone, or that we sold an item in the store that would make this encounter easier for those that wanted it, but left the monster challenging for players seeking that kind of experience?

Neither.

I would prefer that the players strive to learn to fight the monster correctly. This requires knowledge of gear needed as well as necessary tactics. If the higher end equipped and higher skill level players are able to beat the encounter, there really isnt any reason why people who have lower level gear or less experience could not strive to play at that level at some point.

Sure people get frustrated when they cant beat a specific encounter. I think the mentality of people being frustrated goes both ways, however.

Example:

Somene plays the same toon for a few years and racks up high end gear in each item slot and they have also racked up the experience needed to know what it takes to put a party together to beat a tough encounter. They put in alot of hard work and effort to learn the correct tactics, which usually means failing alot before succeeding.

The new update is then released with items that make the encounter easier, and average_gamer_01 comes along, buys said item which trivializes the encounter, and with minimal effort they beat the encounter and now have access to the same loot all the power gamers have access to.

If the mob in this example is epic vellah for instance, now everyone and their mothers uncle has an eSOS simply for showing up enough to farm the needed items with the store bought easy button in their backpack, and the power creep begins. Turbine now has to design the next new hard content based on the fact that most people can get their hands on the best items in the game.

Not only is this frustrating to the high skill level and more experienced player base who earned their victory through obtaining all the needed gear and failing the encounter alot before success, but this type of power creep through easy acquisition of gear also leads to the tier level gaming you see in other raid based MMORPGs such as EQ or WOW.

Most of the player base who stick around after playing a bit do so because DDO is -not- those "other" games.

[mystafyi]

but as the vets leave, the question is will the new players now hang long enough to become vets with open wallets, and donate 3 and 4 years into this....getting easier and easier?

As more vets leave the pugs will get worse and worse. as if that could happen

[Sanadil]

I would prefer it to be made easier on casual/normal and to have it stay as tough as it was on hard/elite. No store item needed.

But if forced to choose between your options, keep the behold.. ehm, the hypothetical mob a toughie and sell the item I suppose.

What he said in line one...ignore line 2...

[Junts]

I understand where you're coming from - overcoming a challenge is rewarding. That's why people challenge themselves. But some players are not always interested in a challenge, or maybe less of one than is being presented. Perhaps they really enjoy the quest line, but this one monster makes it unpleasant for them to play. There are as many reasons as there are players, and while you may find it silly that some choose to quit rather than play a game they find more challenging than desired, it's a valid opinion for those people. And we don't want to tell them to go play someplace else - they deserve to play the way they want to.

We can't always please everyone, but we can please as many people as possible. By selling an item in the store rather than changing the game as a whole, we allow people to customize their experience in a way that does not directly affect other players.

I think this is why DDO supports 3-5 difficulty levels per quest.

There doesn't need to be store involvement: normal and casual should suffice to make it accessible. Unless its some kind of game-control task (see coal chamber), there's not even a real way to affect it with an item.

I think you'd find that people would have no problem with even raids being offered on casual difficulty so long as casual completions did not increment the 20th completion timer: if raid loot drops scaled down further (1/12 chance maybe, half of normal's), it would be quite acceptable.

[~Cereals_Alt]

Hi guys - interesting discussion here. Thank you all for keeping it civil.



I have a question about this, and I'll use a hypothetical situation to set it up:

There is a monster in DDO that can be very difficult to fight. Some players really enjoy the challenge, and the monster was designed to be challenging for those that are looking for this kind of thing. However, some players find this monster so frustrating that it causes them to either avoid that part of the game altogether, or possibly even quit to go find something less stressful.

Now under those circumstances, would you prefer that we made the monster easier for everyone, or that we sold an item in the store that would make this encounter easier for those that wanted it, but left the monster challenging for players seeking that kind of experience?

This is essentially the same way the mini bosses in The Chamber of Rayium work. If you take the time to farm the seals, you basically get to blow through the quest just a little faster.

In my opinion it doesn't break the quest or ruin the game. From what I've seen in the last 4 years of the quests existence, the seals rarely get used. When they do no one has ever complained that I have ever seen or heard of.

[Trillea]

<snip>
I think you'd find that people would have no problem with even raids being offered on casual difficulty...
<snip>

Yes they would, under any circumstances. I know I would and there are MANY more that agree with me I am sure.

[Cahira]

Hi guys - interesting discussion here. Thank you all for keeping it civil.



I have a question about this, and I'll use a hypothetical situation to set it up:

There is a monster in DDO that can be very difficult to fight. Some players really enjoy the challenge, and the monster was designed to be challenging for those that are looking for this kind of thing. However, some players find this monster so frustrating that it causes them to either avoid that part of the game altogether, or possibly even quit to go find something less stressful.

Now under those circumstances, would you prefer that we made the monster easier for everyone, or that we sold an item in the store that would make this encounter easier for those that wanted it, but left the monster challenging for players seeking that kind of experience?

Hi, Tarrant!

You pose an interesting question/situation...and I'll counter it with one of my own.

I love to play bards. I have a lvl 20 spellsinger, a lvl 17/2 spellsinger/rogue, a lvl 17/1 bard-barian warchanter, a lvl 15 virtuoso, and a lvl 3 bard who is helping new guildies level up. Yep...5 bards.

Now, for virtuosos, their songs are just about everything. Sure, there are other things that you can do with them, but they are specialized in their songs and that is their main raison d'etre if you will.

For spellsingers, they are designed to be casters (again, with multiple things that they are capable of, but with a casting specialization).

Ok, looking at the bard spell list, there are 22 Enchantment spells on a bard's list. The next closest type is Conjuration (17) and then Transmutation (10).

6 of the Conjuration spells are of the Cure variety and 6 are of the Summon Monster variety.

So, if a bard (with limited feat choices) is going to pick a school to Focus in, the best bet (spells per feat) would be to focus in Enchantment spells.

However, at the higher levels, there are entire adventure packs that are filled with monsters most of whom (if not all) are flat out immune to Enchantment spells AND bard songs.

So, here I am being frustrated at higher levels because my bards whom I love so well are being relegated to second rate archers or second rate healers (I did not spec them to be healers). None of the things for which I've specialized are useful in at least 2 adventure packs (Amrath and Reaver's Refuge/Reach).

So, I spend all of my time trying to convince my guildies that we don't want to do these quests that make me miserable.

Then, I come to the forums and see that y'all are putting items in the store to help with a particular monster or 2 to keep people from getting frustrated with certain quests because of those particular monsters.

However, with the exception of the Inspired Quarter and Dreaming Dark adventure packs, Turbine has consistently added more and more monsters with blanket immunities at higher levels.

So, unless we will eventually see potions that strip the blanket immunities away from the higher level monsters (which, I would like to point out, I think would be an AWFUL idea ), then it comes across to me as a hypocritical standpoint.

New players who don't like fighting beholders and mummies? Here, buy this potion.

Older players who have put up with beholder eyebeams that went through walls and who are frustrated with entire adventure packs because their characters are reduced to a role they were never meant to play? ... (or *crickets chirping* if you will).

I know this was long, but this is why I am opposed to the potions for fighting beholders and mummies.

TLDR version: it smacks of hypocrisy to me, and it adds to my in-game frustration.

Thanks for being concerned enough to try to understand the players' points-of-view (of which there are legion). Hopefully, this will give you yet another one to consider...with some semi-rational reasoning behind it.

[chester99]

Right now, there are two circumstances that we more typically see. 1) Even on elite it is not challenging for an average group and 2) There is not enough of an advantage for the time spent to run on higher difficulties so, even if it is challenging, running on norm and more quickly getting to 20 completions is the preferred method of loot attainment.

My two cents.

I really wish there was a reason to do most raids on hard/elite. I've never even attempted the shroud elite and I have somewhere north of eleventy billion completions. they tried (and failed miserably, thank you buggy chest) with ToD, and ostensibly tried with loot count being higher on harder difficulty (ehem, I'm sure it is). but generally speaking, fastest route to 20 is the only route.

(sorry, not to derail the thread).

[ahpook]

The Mummy and Beholder immunity items crossed the line and then some.

I do expect to see raid loot available in there eventually.

Those crossed the line for me too. Veteran status almost crossed the line, but since they were giving it away for favor too easily anyway, it didn't seem worth complaining about.

But tarrant came to talk about those very items.. hypothetically...

...
I have a question about this, and I'll use a hypothetical situation to set it up:

There is a monster in DDO that can be very difficult to fight. Some players really enjoy the challenge, and the monster was designed to be challenging for those that are looking for this kind of thing. However, some players find this monster so frustrating that it causes them to either avoid that part of the game altogether, or possibly even quit to go find something less stressful.

Now under those circumstances, would you prefer that we made the monster easier for everyone, or that we sold an item in the store that would make this encounter easier for those that wanted it, but left the monster challenging for players seeking that kind of experience?

That is what is called a false dichotomy. I would prefer C:

you have trainers that people can go to and learn tips and tricks for defeating those mobs. You can fight one in a controlled environment with no penalty for failure (and no reward for success other than knowledge).

This model would have made great sense for the training dummy. Instead of a single construct, you make the dummy behave as one of selection of creature types. You can test your skills and tactics against that monster type. See if you can break its DR, if you can get your moves down for spells to land while its back is turned, if you have items to minimize its potency.

I think people would have paid more for those training dummies. Harder creatures like your hypothetical monster can be sold for more. These training dummies could be accessed off guild ships for a cost or rented on guild ships to allow team training. Perhaps even free training dummy tokens mailed to people when they first get killed by that type of mob would help too (or sent by the GM to people who complain). You might have made less than selling easy potions but you would have a more committed player at the end which would probably translate to longer term revenue.

... And we don't want to tell them to go play someplace else - they deserve to play the way they want to.
....

Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Now that is a very steep slippery slope. I have been here and paying for years so I certainly deserve to play the way I want to. And I want all raids to have a solo mode. That I can always win. I should expect to see that in U7? Cause that is the way I want to play. Right??? Oh, and I want to TR without an XP penalty. That one seems easy so I should be able to get that in a patch before U7

Ok, I will just assume that you misspoke. Call back the devs.

[GoldyGopher]

I understand where you're coming from - overcoming a challenge is rewarding. That's why people challenge themselves. But some players are not always interested in a challenge, or maybe less of one than is being presented. Perhaps they really enjoy the quest line, but this one monster makes it unpleasant for them to play. There are as many reasons as there are players, and while you may find it silly that some choose to quit rather than play a game they find more challenging than desired, it's a valid opinion for those people. And we don't want to tell them to go play someplace else - they deserve to play the way they want to.

We can't always please everyone, but we can please as many people as possible. By selling an item in the store rather than changing the game as a whole, we allow people to customize their experience in a way that does not directly affect other players.

If players aren't interested in a challenge then they should be running other quests. Simply giving them another easy button is a poor choice as far as I am concerned. I find the game harder and harder to play because there is less and less challenge. By removing the challenge other players will get to my point of boredom faster and faster.

The hypothetical item in question should never been added to the game and should be removed, or neutered.

[Lissyl]

As more vets leave the pugs will get worse and worse. as if that could happen

This actually isn't true. As more and more vets leave, the best players of the new generation will rise to the top and become the new 'vets'. Your prediction -- and my description of the outcome -- were both easily viewable in, for instance, WoW, where the once-ridiculed BC generation became the majority of the vets of the Wrath generation and led the way in clearing content on many/most servers. It's very shortsighted to think that all of use who joined later simply have no capacity to compete with you. Now, it IS highly likely that some nuggets of very good wisdom will be lost, only a fool would claim otherwise. Whether or not those lost nuggets are rediscovered...well, only time will tell.

Also, as most of this thread was more about the Beholder thing than the Mummy thing (seriously, who has trouble with mummies?), is it just my store or did Turbine pull all the Beholder items? I can't even find them listed in the New Releases section here on the forums (you know what I mean, the 'Whats New and On Sale' post in the store stickies). I think they did a very silent 180 on allowing them...which, provided its true, speaks well of Turbine paying attention to the thoughts of people on the forums.

And finally, to the poster asking for a seperate server -- Kalari, I think it was? Asking for the challenging server? Yah. I'd like to give that a try, that sounds pretty fun. Would also like to see some things that level the playing field a bit between those who have everything memorized and those who don't (which, naturally, would be QUITE challenging!). Make some of those raid bosses have randomly-determined DR's, or spawn in passageways instead of the very end where you can just rush through fullspeed. Some randomness would go a long way towards keeping the challenge relevant, IMO. "What do you mean Abbot is only vulnerable to Quarterstaves?!"

[THAC0]

I understand where you're coming from - overcoming a challenge is rewarding. That's why people challenge themselves. But some players are not always interested in a challenge, or maybe less of one than is being presented. Perhaps they really enjoy the quest line, but this one monster makes it unpleasant for them to play. There are as many reasons as there are players, and while you may find it silly that some choose to quit rather than play a game they find more challenging than desired, it's a valid opinion for those people. And we don't want to tell them to go play someplace else - they deserve to play the way they want to.

We can't always please everyone, but we can please as many people as possible. By selling an item in the store rather than changing the game as a whole, we allow people to customize their experience in a way that does not directly affect other players.

Isn't that why you guys created "Casual" mode?... to make quests less difficult for the folks not wanting the challenge of doing it on Normal...let alone Hard, Elite or Epic?

With regards to the DDO Store, either people like it or hate it. There is no grey area in the middle. I like it... I don't go on a shopping spree there, but in a pinch, I'll grab a rez cake or huge bag. On that same note, I really don't want to see quest rewards (named ones) in the DDO Store as that would IMO ruin the desire to actually do quests and get that achievement.

my 2 pp.