The "Slippery Slope" Argument

[stainer]

Thanks for all of your responses!

I've summarized some of the more common responses to my question. Apologies if I didn't respond to your specific piece of feedback, but there are a lot of you.

It sounds as if the decision has been made as all your responses seem to be justification for the change.

[chester99]

Make things better for the colorblind!
We're trying to add labels to everything that is color required.

[GoldyGopher]

Thanks for all of your responses!

I've summarized some of the more common responses to my question. Apologies if I didn't respond to your specific piece of feedback, but there are a lot of you.

Tarrant, your answers unfortunately sum up something I have complained about for years. It is very obvious that neither you nor other "developers" are playing DDO at the same level of competence as those that are on this board. In a nut shell that is, has been, continues to be, is getting to be more of, a problem.

I could easily argue that your answers are not telling the full answer but I doubt anyone here could get you to see the issues if you can't experience them in the same manner that we do.

[Tarrant]

Tarrant, your answers unfortunately sum up something I have complained about for years. It is very obvious that neither you nor other "developers" are playing DDO at the same level of competence as those that are on this board. In a nut shell that is, has been, continues to be, is getting to be more of, a problem.

I could easily argue that your answers are not telling the full answer but I doubt anyone here could get you to see the issues if you can't experience them in the same manner that we do.

The number one issue I'm seeing here is that you feel the quality of player has deteriorated. That you can't join a high level PUG without someone that's been coddled by DDO's recent changes screwing things up for you. And forget my competence level - the fact is that the players that are at high-level are overwhelmingly players that have been with this game a long time. Your perception of them is just different.

[Aloro]

Its silly to try and convince people that you can "play the game any way you want", you cant.

To tell someone exactly how they must accomplish something when there are clearly other ways of doing it may be wrong or as you say intolerant.

But to point out fundamentally how this game has been designed to operate is neither intolerant nor silly. It is trying to be helpful.

What Chai is suggesting is nothing more than learning the fundamentals of HOW this fantasy MMORPG based on Dungeons and Dragons is DESIGNED to function. He is not insisting you play a certain way only pointing out the rules of this game.

You cant just get what you want, when ever you want, how ever you want.
(sometimes I'm embarrassed to be an American )

If I give you a hammer and a nail, no matter how badly you want to do it differently (you special unique little butterfly you), you will find very few ways to get the nail into the wood other than banging on the head of the nail with the heavy end of the hammer. You cant screw it in, you cant yell it in, you cant will it in, you have to conform like every other unique little butterfly and beat that nail-head with a hammer to get it into the wood. Sure you can change some minor details: how you hold the hammer, how you swing the hammer, how you hold the nail, if you open your eyes or close them, but ultimately there are very few variables that will insure the greatest amount of success.

A nail is after all a tool designed to be used in a certain way.

You cant (without banging your thumb a lot) expect to play a fantasy MMORPG in ways it wasn't designed to be played.

This is not Burger King. Even they DO have limits. They wont sell you a pizza no matter how much you tell them you want it your way.

You're making a lot of assumptions there.

This is not a nail and a piece of wood. This is a game. It's an interesting analogy but fundamentally flawed because you're still postulating some false premises to attain your conclusion.

But ok, let's look at the analogy presented. If I have a nail, you confidently state that I *must* hammer it with a hammer. That's really nonsensical. I could hammer it with a rock. I could push it with my fingers into a space between boards where it would be wedged in. I could use the nail to pick my teeth. All of these are valid uses for a nail. Most of them even accomplish the same goal you incorrectly presuppose everyone who has a nail MUST hold - i.e. to insert the nail into something.

And no, this isn't Burger King. But then I'm not ordering a pizza - another faulty analogy there. Instead, this is akin to me going to Burger King and wanting to be able to order nothing but french fries if I feel like it, while people like you are insisting that's the wrong way to order food. You have to order meal deals, you know. That's how it's done, or so you claim. I disagree vehemently.

This isn't about me being a "special butterfly". Thanks for the snarky dig though! This is about players, in general, having the right and ability to choose how and why they play games. There is no "right" way to play a game, unless you make a lot of sweeping assumptions about goals and means (e.g. if you assume that the player's goals are to amass the greatest power possible in game as quickly as possible, there's arguably a "right" or at least preferred way to do that). It's unreasonable to make those assumptions though, since we know empirically that people don't all play games for the same reasons.

So, yes. Making sweeping generalizations about why and how people must play games in order to do it the "right" way actually is silly. No matter how self-righteous you get about it, that won't change the fact that people play games in different ways for different reasons. I accept that your way seems natural and right to you, and it's easy to think that what works for you must work for everyone else. It's easy to think that, but quite incorrect.

And no, Tharlak, I wouldn't pay a handyman to drive a nail for me. I'm quite capable of doing so myself, with a variety of tools even.

Edit to add: If someone plays DDO only to have a bit of silly fun with friends... then anything they do that helps them have fun is playing the "right" way for them. They might not care in the least about gaining max exp per minute, nor about getting the best loot available at their level. They might not (gasp!) care about the game mechanics much at all. And yet they're still players, and have a right to enjoy the game their own way. You have no right to tell these people that they're doing it "wrong" or that they have to change their focus and methods to meet your requirements.

You suppose that every player intends to get to max level, thus they all need to be prepared for that eventuality. This is NOT the goal of every player.

You suppose that every player wants to be as effective as they can - i.e. to play with as much skill as possible. This is NOT the goal of every player.

You suppose that every player wants to group with others (and thus you argue that their skill is important to you). This is NOT the goal of every player.

Personally, I'm a rules lawyer/game mechanics sort of guy. I like to know the details of how everything works and maximize my efficacy - I suspect much like you actually. I do however accept that this is not the only valid way to play, and I wouldn't dream of trying to force others to adhere to my goals.

[Kalari]

I thought that dungeons scaled less on hard and little if any on elite. I'm pretty sure that's what they said when dungeon scaling was released.

If it does maybe im just that awesome (ignores my guildies laughing) there were a few quests that I know back in the day soloing was hard like Tear and a few others before scaling that I can do now took a bard rogue threw it before they changed the locked shrines to and still made it threw. It was one of the main reasons I was ticked at that one guy saying how hard Tear was.

So dunno I just think that many of the changes along with scaling hirelings like taking away failing vons 2 if you fall. And adding extra shrines and or unlocking locked ones. Yeah there are always the option of us avoiding them but it used to be instead of making ourselves avoid things why not have it where it used to be for hard and elite? I just dont understand why the change had to affect all of us all or nothing with unlocked shrines, no failing with falling and the like.

But back to answering you soloing hard and elite for me seemed toned down.

[Cyr]

Tarrant, your answers unfortunately sum up something I have complained about for years. It is very obvious that neither you nor other "developers" are playing DDO at the same level of competence as those that are on this board. In a nut shell that is, has been, continues to be, is getting to be more of, a problem.

I could easily argue that your answers are not telling the full answer but I doubt anyone here could get you to see the issues if you can't experience them in the same manner that we do.

My take on this is very close to the above.

I would like to add however...

Here is a fun fact. Most players who have join dates from the beginning of the game have not been subscribers that entire time. In fact, many barely played the game at all before it went F2P. Here's another fun fact, most players with high level characters have multiple characters that are high level. I have a few guildies who have 30+ characters almost all high level characters. Does each one of my guildies like this count as 30+ people when comparing it to other new players/returning players with 1 high level character?

Raids are really only for the hardcore? What game are you playing Tarrant because it's not DDO. Most raids are perfectly completable by a group full of brand new players...of course for those brand new players they might want to actually fill the party and have a balanced party to maximize their chances of success. New players put up lfm's and shockingly complete raids everyday. Any casual player can hop in any raid in the game and have a reasonable chance of completing. If anything is designed for the more hardcore players it is epic quests and you know what I just ran one last night with 4/6 people in the party never running the quest before and being fairly clueless and unimpressively geared to say the least (my hezrou had agro over the melee's in party against the crate monster in snitch). We completed no problem still.

The vast majority of items in the store that help in game are not available in game. Bunny Hats, store pots (which are superior to normal pots and therefore not comparable), stacking stat pots, mummy pots, store cure pots (superior again to normal pots), huge bags, and top tier res cakes are all examples of items in the store that are not available in game otherwise. As lesser versions of the above items hardly qualify as a distinction let me list other items in the store that are available both in game and in the store. Res shrines, rest shrines, +2 tomes....the rest is junk that you are a sucker to buy like +1 shock weapons.

[Scraap]

The number one issue I'm seeing here is that you feel the quality of player has deteriorated. That you can't join a high level PUG without someone that's been coddled by DDO's recent changes screwing things up for you. And forget my competence level - the fact is that the players that are at high-level are overwhelmingly players that have been with this game a long time. Your perception of them is just different.

That's making it out to be a lot more confrontational than needed T.

It's not player quality near so much as player knowledge on how to overcome obstacles. I mean c'mon, beholders... paralizer, deathblock, mantle, scarab, optic nerves, probably a few more things rarer than that, and that's assuming you don't want to just duck out of the way, clear the trash around it by pulling them around a corner, and swarming the thing once the distractions are gone. Y'know, actually using the level to your advantage, and not simply considering every encounter as a stand up 1v1 fight. And this is stuff I picked up since joining during F2P.

Thing is, if the general solution becomes 'chug a pot' to the point where folks don't even bother to mention other solutions, anything less than 'smack it hard with a big stick' goes right out the window as far as tactics and thought goes. Just look at how almost every solution offered lately has become 'bring more DPS'.

[Tarrant]

Here is a fun fact. Most players who have join dates from the beginning of the game have not been subscribers that entire time. In fact, many barely played the game at all before it went F2P. Here's another fun fact, most players with high level characters have multiple characters that are high level. I have a few guildies who have 30+ characters almost all high level characters. Does each one of my guildies like this count as 30+ people when comparing it to other new players/returning players with 1 high level character?

A lot of the above comments are assumptions, not facts. While yes, many were not subscribers the entire time, on the whole they were subscribers for enough time for it to make a difference.

And each of your guildies counts as 1 person, not 30+.

Raids are really only for the hardcore? What game are you playing Tarrant because it's not DDO.

My point about the raids is that per player feedback, we've limited Store items available to use in raids to keep them at an elevated challenge level.

The vast majority of items in the store that help in game are not available in game.

Not all of the items are not identical (store pots, etc), but as I said, they're for the most part comparable. And those that aren't, feel free to not use them and not group with people that want to use them. I make a point to ask if players mind if I use Store items like rez cakes when I run in PUGs. If they do, I don't use them, and if I'm in the mood to use them, I join another group .

[knightgf]

Sell it but make it available in-game too.
This is reasonable, and certainly something we strive to do. The vast, vast majority of our items that affect in-game play have a comparable counterpart available in-game. And as always, we monitor feedback and make adjustments based on it.

I surely hope that obtaining astral diamonds in-game without using the DDO store will be a option for astral diamonds come update 7; Yeah, sure, it has limited uses atm(Only used to buy stormglory bolt type airships) but im sure you devs will be able to find other uses for them(Maybe as a substitute for epic crafting, used to trade for other items only available in the DDO store, and so on.) Hopefully you can come up with a reasonably challenging way to add astral diamonds in-game without losing too much balance(Maybe make it as a rare collectible pickup much like the ebberon dragonshard fragment?)

Don't hesistate to ask the fourm community for feedback on other uses for astral diamonds. You may be surprised by the responces, if you make another thread about it of course.

[binnsr]

And each of your guildies accounts counts as 1 person, not 30+.

Correction in red

[Karavek]

The number one issue I'm seeing here is that you feel the quality of player has deteriorated. That you can't join a high level PUG without someone that's been coddled by DDO's recent changes screwing things up for you. And forget my competence level - the fact is that the players that are at high-level are overwhelmingly players that have been with this game a long time. Your perception of them is just different.

Indeed to many these days practice a very high degree of elitism that most new players wont dare admit it after having experianced being kicked simply for asking where the quests is etc. You go into a quest and people start saying put on your BON and if a new player dares ask what that means kicked again.

So players start to simply go to the store rather then ask questions, but eventually the use of DDO store items starts become more limited. I personallly look forward to content from every lvl range being buyable so as to allow the most casual player a real chance to experiance it all.

[chester99]

A lot of the above comments are assumptions, not facts. While yes, many were not subscribers the entire time, on the whole they were subscribers for enough time for it to make a difference.

And each of your guildies counts as 1 person, not 30+.



My point about the raids is that per player feedback, we've limited Store items available to use in raids to keep them at an elevated challenge level.



Not all of the items are not identical (store pots, etc), but as I said, they're for the most part comparable. And those that aren't, feel free to not use them and not group with people that want to use them. I make a point to ask if players mind if I use Store items like rez cakes when I run in PUGs. If they do, I don't use them, and if I'm in the mood to use them, I join another group .

I think we're getting caught up in statistics being misapplied.

are there high level players who have played for many years who display a sub-optimal play style?
yes. many.

are there high level players who recently joined who display a sub-optimal play style?
yes. many.

is the percent of each population the same?
no.

which is greater?
new players vastly out perform vet players in the category of under-performance.

there are many valid reasons for this, not the least of which, they're new players. not to be discounted though, is the lack of challenge they face.

/meh

[Kalari]

Tarrant if I can catch you while your still reading this thread an honest question. A few months ago a survey about a hard core server was given to us, now back then I didnt think there was real need for one but now that there have been many of us feeling the little changes to quests unlocking things changing the traps and fail mechanics has their been any buzz on your end about maybe looking into that? I mean we have two new servers Orien and Cannith if anything maybe resurrect one of the older servers that disappeared back in the merge and make it Hard core. Im sure if you ran a poll on it in the forums or opened a "Lets talk about Hardcore" discussion we could get a lot of people with ideas from combat, dungeon layout even the dreaded pvp.

So im just gauging to see if there has been any interest on Turbine's end for this past that survey?

[Karavek]

My take on this is very close to the above.

I would like to add however...

Here is a fun fact. Most players who have join dates from the beginning of the game have not been subscribers that entire time. In fact, many barely played the game at all before it went F2P. Here's another fun fact, most players with high level characters have multiple characters that are high level. I have a few guildies who have 30+ characters almost all high level characters. Does each one of my guildies like this count as 30+ people when comparing it to other new players/returning players with 1 high level character?

Raids are really only for the hardcore? What game are you playing Tarrant because it's not DDO. Most raids are perfectly completable by a group full of brand new players...of course for those brand new players they might want to actually fill the party and have a balanced party to maximize their chances of success. New players put up lfm's and shockingly complete raids everyday. Any casual player can hop in any raid in the game and have a reasonable chance of completing. If anything is designed for the more hardcore players it is epic quests and you know what I just ran one last night with 4/6 people in the party never running the quest before and being fairly clueless and unimpressively geared to say the least (my hezrou had agro over the melee's in party against the crate monster in snitch). We completed no problem still.

The vast majority of items in the store that help in game are not available in game. Bunny Hats, store pots (which are superior to normal pots and therefore not comparable), stacking stat pots, mummy pots, store cure pots (superior again to normal pots), huge bags, and top tier res cakes are all examples of items in the store that are not available in game otherwise. As lesser versions of the above items hardly qualify as a distinction let me list other items in the store that are available both in game and in the store. Res shrines, rest shrines, +2 tomes....the rest is junk that you are a sucker to buy like +1 shock weapons.

I bought most of the stuff you compalin about multiple times this month. Now when you show me how me spending 400 dollars this month because I can afford to and choose to on this fun little virtual toy to help support it makes what I want to see matter less then the typical FTP or 15 buck a month player well go for it. FTP games with cash stores thrive by invoking the desire to remain among top tiers of power without having to spend the time. Time is something some have more freely then others and feel that thier investment in an MMO entitles them to more then others. This may be the case in a pure monthly sub game. NOt so here where those who want to spend can and will therefore support and direct the future of the game die hard elitist nearly drove into the ground

[Sirea]

Indeed to many these days practice a very high degree of elitism that most new players wont dare admit it after having experianced being kicked simply for asking where the quests is etc. You go into a quest and people start saying put on your BON and if a new player dares ask what that means kicked again.

So players start to simply go to the store rather then ask questions, but eventually the use of DDO store items starts become more limited. I personallly look forward to content from every lvl range being buyable so as to allow the most casual player a real chance to experiance it all.

Please check the "evil elitist vets are ruining the game" attitude at the door, I don't want this thread to devolve into flames. We're having a good dialogue here that may actually reach devs' ears.

FWIW, I don't think I've ever booted someone from a quest simply for lacking quest/game knowledge.

I surely hope that obtaining astral diamonds in-game without using the DDO store will be a option for astral diamonds come update 7...Hopefully you can come up with a reasonably challenging way to add astral diamonds in-game without losing too much balance

Epic quest end reward perhaps? In small stacks of 5 or 10? Right now we just get the same old end rweards as if the quest was done at it's original level.

[Chai]

Thanks for all of your responses!

I've summarized some of the more common responses to my question. Apologies if I didn't respond to your specific piece of feedback, but there are a lot of you.

Dumbing down the game/easy button is making it so that new players don't learn to play, and our high level PUGS are filled with bad players.
Here's a fun fact: The vast majority of high level characters are on accounts that were created way way before free to play launched. Those bad PUGS at high level? Same people you were playing with before September 2009.

In some cases yes. In *most cases, no. It takes a few weeks to level a toon to 20. Most new players are not new to MMOs, and once they learn the interface, many can level in a few months, if not a few weeks. I guess the phrase "bad pug" is subject to opinion, but what most of the vets moan about on the boards regarding "bad pug" is when they show up, and are the only ones that know whats going on due to metagaming, and they are the only well equipped toon there, which means they do all the heavy lifting or the pug wipes.

It is my observation that when vets gripe about "bad pugs" this is what they are talking about. If anyone else wants to add on to this they should likely define what they call a bad pug first because what it is to me -vs- what it means to them might be two different things.

Just make the monster easier on casual/normal difficulties.
This is something we certainly take into consideration, but just because one monster can be too challenging does not mean the entire quest needs to be run on a lower difficulty level.

I know its my opinion, but certain monsters SHOULD be feared. Beholders are the obvious example. Dragons are another. When walking to the beholders in VON 3 at level, a player should have that clear understanding that that little green ray + a failed save will likely mean character death. This is an aspect I like about DnD and will always point to when comparing it to other games. Balance isnt an issue. Not all mobs are created equally just because their CR is the same number.

Also - People beat those quests with the hard mobs daily, even when it was much harder than it is today.

Not all parts of the game should be completable by all players/leave it as it is.
Yes, not all parts of the game are designed for all kind of player. Some parts are for stealthier players, some are for more hardcore players (raids), but we would like the majority of the game to be available to the majority of players in a way that they enjoy. Using the store to selectively alter parts of an encounter allows people to receive the maximum satisfaction possible from playing our game, which is obviously important to us.

Most casual gamers have a clear understanding that they are a casual gamer. They know they wont have the high end loot or may only have one or two toons with high end loot when other vets who regularly play have entire accounts loaded with capped high end geared toons.

I am not so certain that knowingly using the easy out to beat an encounter would give me the same satisfaction as beating the encounter without it. Again, I know its my opinion, but if I was a betting man, I would bet that most gamers, casual or otherwise, feel the same.

Sell it but make it available in-game too.
This is reasonable, and certainly something we strive to do. The vast, vast majority of our items that affect in-game play have a comparable counterpart available in-game. And as always, we monitor feedback and make adjustments based on it.

I agree that items that make the game easier should be available in game if they are in the store, and so far a decent job has been done on this in my opinion. I think there are a few exceptions that still need to be made available or made MORE available in game.

They'll learn they can just swipe a card and beat the game that way.
I see this sentiment repeated frequently on the forums, as if the store is some kind of infinite "I win" button. People tend to like their money though, and if presented with two choices, one which is free and one which has a price tag, they will usually make a reasonable attempt to take the free path. This does not apply to everyone of course (those with significantly more money than time in particular) but assuming that someone will buy from the store without second thought because it's consequence free is incorrect.

I disagree. Having played many MMOs, I have seen quite a few players who buy accounts on eBay because its the easy way to get into the endgame, especially in the tier level raid MMOs. I have seen the plat farmers selling WoP rapiers and tomes for real money and people use these services regularly. I have seen toons logged into the game during a time when the player wouldnt normally play by another player who is leveling that toon as a paid service for real money. SWG was filled with individuals who would gladly pay real life money to be better equipped.

I think you would be surprised at just how many people are willing to push the easy button, even if it costs a few bucks, in order to appear to be at the same level as those individuals who spent alot of time to get to the same place.

We did just fine without the store before - Why the change now?
Many of you did do fine without the store, but old DDO wasn't working for us. Old DDO could be overly punishing in a way many players did not enjoy. With DDO Unlimited, one of our main goals was to customize the game experience as best we could. Dungeon scaling, hirelings, and casual difficulty mode are a part of that, but so is the Store. At the end of the day, there will always be players that want something to be tougher for everyone, but we need to think of the whole. I bet our permadeathers would love if the entire game had a forced permadeath rule set!

I think there is a core of old school players who love high difficulty gaming and I would say that I fit in with that crowd. We realize this doesnt fit into a business model that you can succeed with now days. Half the reason WOW has elevendy bajillion subscribers is due to the fact that a player can solo to max level and never have to step foot into a hard zone. There is just one major issue alot of the old school vets have with this. Its not the D&D mentality, plain and simple. As a business model I am sure its great to make things easier to everyone can win, but to the old grumbling D&D crowd, its sacrilegious.

Curses that disappear after 90 seconds what? I used to sit in the tavern and count how many people rushed in there begging a healer to remove PERMANENT debuffs for them.

Today, we have a much more diverse group of players who all seek different ways to accomplish something, and we seek to accommodate them while not ruining the experience for others.

This will become a harder and harder task to accomplish when making new content for the higher end players. I am sure yourself and most other staff members already realize this, as we see evidence of it everyday, including this very thread.

They should learn to be better players.
And they will, see point 4. Just because there is an option in the Store to assist someone does not mean a player wants to use it. In general, players want to overcome challenges and obstacles themselves. However for the times they don't, for whatever reason, they can get a little help from the Store.

I think what the vets are saying here is they should become better players BEFORE they try end game content. This should be a constant learning curve instead of being an easy ride to the top followed by a hard bludgeoning of reality when they get there. Vets are also saying that it is not required to learn when there is an easy way out of most tough situations readily at hand.

Because of this we are seeing more and more people in the higher end raids who are drastically not ready for it. I am not talking about toons who are right on the cusp, but toons who are so under geared they they couldnt possibly survive the encounter they are trying to join up for. This is due to the fact that they never needed to consider this previously because getting to 20 was made easy, even with 180 hp and 25% fort.

More and more newer players are also offended when they arent allowed to game in those high end groups because they literally feel that their toon is ready for action in that content, because of the easiness in getting there, when to Vets, it clearly is not ready. Its just the next step forward right? Not when dying gives the raid boss back a hefty amount of HP.

Make things better for the colorblind!
We're trying to add labels to everything that is color required.

Gimme the orange and green one please. I already have armor that looks like a kaleidescope barfed on it, so I might as well make it an ensemble.

[Lorichie]

i decided to throw my own food for thought out there, which hopefully does both...provokes thought and conversation, and in a round a bout way, also shows how i feel about something....and at the end of course, the all important caveat...

Food for thought....What happens when, and we are going thru it now to some extent, we stop giving folks tidbits, easy buttons, choices thru the ddo store, and they get upset and decide to leave for another game to get that tidbit....We see all the time examples of how something isnt liked, or appreciated, or coveted, or what have u, that the result is always "fine, im going to another game, and no....you can't have my stuff" *cause the game might suck and i might be (forced to come) back.*

Shows how i feel about the store....well, mebbe it doesnt, but here goes anyway....Choices are always good. I love choices. But i do agree, if you are going to offer a choice, offer an alternative to the choice. For me, in spirit of the OP, there is a choice, several as far as beholder and mummy items go. Mebbe not completely immune, but close enough...FOR ME...For others, well, throw in an item, hard to get or otherwise and problem solved. Having to grind for it isn't the same as "insta getting it".

Caveat...I could care less how other people play, and i "believe" most people feel the same. To me, my real issue is the, "At what point is enough, enough?

At what point does it become about, "Just because we can offer this item, SHOULD we offer this item." Yes, offering the beholder item is great, and yes, i will buy it. If you are only thinking of this as a financial issue, or " staying versus leaving issue, then yes, it's for the best." But...

I submit...there will come a time, when you don't offer a particular item, and a few folks jokingly, and not so jokingly, offered a few ideas prior my post, that folks will leave. You've set the precedent that if someone is upset, and enough people leave/get upset about a monster/item that you will at the least have a conversation about an item, at the worst, give in and offer an item....what happens when somebody wants something you can't/won't offer? You have to draw the line somewhere...where is that line?

Offer these items in the store and in the game...always...and take these items away during elite level of play...this is a good compromise.

Hardcore server...I used to be against this, i'm starting to see why other folks like it.

The cause for concern for most of us is the following: We are slowly becoming like everyone else. We were a niche game once, and slowly, when we started catering to everyone, we are becoming like the other mmo's out there. There's nothing separating us from all the rest out there. Even our great "combat" is not as great as it used to be (to me, i can't speak for the others), right now the only class i enjoy playing is a cleric. If you change that too much, it's likely i'll have nothing left to play.

I wanted to be different. I wanted to have something "special" to draw the masses to us. I wanted to steal players from other games, with our "niche game", instead, people are only flocking to us because they tire of their game when the game doesn't give them the fluff they are looking for, when they are looking for it....much like us now. I don't want a revolving door type of player base.

Then again, i need to balance that with the "It's likely we'd be gone the way of Europe and Codemaster". If given that choice, i will always choose to keep the game going, even if i don't like it. Those that say that they'd rather the game die than live on in it's current, and arguably, "in the future" form, I used to scoff at, and still do...mostly. But, while i am more against the game ending and i will begrudgingly support anything that allows the game to continue (I do understand, even if i don't support why some folks would rather the game end), as this is a game, not real life scenario's, i do have to ask the following each time something like this happens....

"....At what cost? and, When does it end? and finally, Just because we can, is it really for the best?". Convince me that it's in the best interest of the game, not in the best interest of a wallet....Failing that, offer an alternative in the game.

Random, useless, way too long winded, medicated thoughts, for whatever it's worth....

R

[Kalari]

I bought most of the stuff you compalin about multiple times this month. Now when you show me how me spending 400 dollars this month because I can afford to and choose to on this fun little virtual toy to help support it makes what I want to see matter less then the typical FTP or 15 buck a month player well go for it. FTP games with cash stores thrive by invoking the desire to remain among top tiers of power without having to spend the time. Time is something some have more freely then others and feel that their investment in an MMO entitles them to more then others. This may be the case in a pure monthly sub game. Not so here where those who want to spend can and will therefore support and direct the future of the game die hard elitist nearly drove into the ground

Ive tried so hard to stay out of this whole back and forth with who killed the game nonsense but really the stuff needs to stop.

Hard core elitist, vets new players no one of us killed this game. We had to deal with 4 years of Turbine with no advertising from their former business partners. For a game that was very Niche that many had no idea existed before we went free to play and gasp actually advertise and got our names out.

So many times I see both sides of this argument about who saved what who kept things floating. Honestly im sick of it players didnt drive anything into the ground we stuck out despite not being known despite going nearly a year without new content while they made their coupe move despite their being chained to an unproductive partner.

You know who I blame for DDO nearly failing? Good Ole Atari the suit filed proved enough of that so can we please stop blaming players for that ****? We players if we really influenced change the way many think there would have been no FTP Store or the like just a bunch of curmudgeons and a sinking ship. Im just really tired of this rhetoric going around about who nearly destroyed what. It's not even a worthy argument because no one official from Turbine ever said "Hey you vets are destroying things." Of course not if they thought that they wouldnt have worked so hard to save DDO with the new plan. SO please for the love thats holy defend your right to purchase away. Others defend your right to say the store is trouble but enough of this supposed power we players have.

The power is in the revenue pure and simple and the only reason why so many changes are about is due to the flow of money tied to it. Its just a business fact it has nothing to do with players choice of style if that was the case they would have done away with subs together and told us old players where we could go. They would not hold regular surveys asking us what we think about things. So enough pointing figures about the past please. /rant.

[Naash]

The number one issue I'm seeing here is that you feel the quality of player has deteriorated. That you can't join a high level PUG without someone that's been coddled by DDO's recent changes screwing things up for you. And forget my competence level - the fact is that the players that are at high-level are overwhelmingly players that have been with this game a long time. Your perception of them is just different.

It's not just high level pugs,its in every level range.
I pug my TR's because I'm out of synch with my guild,I see the ill equipped & undereducated every day.

This is what I observe from the vast majority of new players:
I give advice(mostly ignored).
They don't use pots(heroism,barkskin,cure poison,cure disease,remove curse,cure pots,etc.).
They dont use common items to help them vs. ailments(poison immunity,disease immunity,spell resistance).
They are more interested in farming favor than xp/items that will help them(I know you play on Argo Tarrant,there is no way to ignore the LFM's).
They hardly talk/chat in group let alone help each other out.IMHO this is due to Turbine going out of their way to make a lot of content soloable and for solutions in the DDO store,this has led to antisocial behavior(not in a mean way but they dont have to group up until they HAVE to,with the DDO store this is less and less).

I'm going to ask you an honest question Tarrant,if you were in a group with new players and had problems that vets know the answer to would you point them towards in-game solutions or the DDO store?