So to the people saying that "oh you dont have to group with players who think the store is the best way to blaze threw the game" its better for us to keep the divide going then? Its best that we keep ourselves separated and hope that one day people learn that the stuff they buy like the beholder and mummy potions are a waste of time?
You know its sad that the thought even comes to mind to not group with people. It used to be that it took a person being a real A-hat or Noob before being shun and kept away from groups. But according to you all that's what we should do as the norm now If I think your abusing too many pots instead of saying "hey you know conserving mana will save you more of a headache and money in the long run." I should just dumped the person from my group and keep away.
Look I cant argue about the store though kind of sick of seeing this saved us **** you know who saved the game? The employees of Turbine from their CEO, Marketing and Accounts department to the Developers those are who saved DDO they could have made the game free to play four years ago but if they didnt put the effort they did into getting it where it is now who knows what kind of success they would have had? Want proof go out there to other free to play MMO's I know I have they are <insert fecal matter reference here>. IF DDO was such **** believe me they could have given it away without the grind and no one would play it, there has always been something about this game.
But for many of us its losing that something, to open its doors for all kinds are fine, but what many of us are asking is what about leaving somethings for us who enjoyed certain aspects. Sure there are those who go "It doesnt affect your game" And its true what Joe down the road buys to get better doesnt affect me. But you know what does? Dungeon scaling, Changing quests to eliminate challenging traps, locked doors, fail mechanics. Just because we are in a generation where everyone gets a gold sticker now despite the effort they put in doesnt mean I have to like it. Thats why I respond the way I do to people who say "easy button." Some of us are not thinking about the damned store that is an inevitable we had since last June when EU was announced to get out venom out about and now many of us use the damned thing.
But what about the other changes? We have no control over that even if we build ourselves gimpy as someone in this thread suggested. What about those of us who want to use tougher dungeons to try out new build ideas? New class combos its not about twinking for me its about having a hard playing field to test myself thats what made me love this game 3 years ago what kept me vip for so long because I loved the thought that I could be challenged that my groups could be as well. Hell now I dont need groups and thats with the Korthos gear offered and its sad. I just wish people would understand that the slope may have started with the store but now its gone to the point where they are so willing to make the game easy for people that it no longer gives any incentive to be creative for some of us. Ahh well enough venting just needed to get this out of my system.
Lost Legions Officer and Resident Diva! *Welp now I'm a Twitch Streamer* Follow me on Twitter @Kalarigamerchic
/emote gives Kalari a gold sticker.
Well said.
"I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities" - Vaarsuvius, OoTS #674
hehe, kalari, your pc still not ready? you are angry, i tell ya...
nicely said!
they are losing the very thing that has kept a loyal playerbase paying for 3 and 4 years. and the new players arent gonna stick around when they get grounded and get their allowance taken away. i give the average new player a lifespan of a year, at the outside. this game has gotten 3 years of vip money from me because it stands apart from all others. now, im running out of reasons to keep paying, because this game is becoming like all others. the mentality of the new player is horrible seeing as the only thing they are learning is if somethings difficult, buy it from the store. get all the way to 20, and still be wearing korthos gear and have no clue that fortification exists in this game, then tr into a less gimpier idiot and do it all over again, learning nothing
its a sad sad picture, indeed![]()
Last edited by woundweaver; 08-18-2010 at 12:36 PM.
woundweaver 20 cl woundcleaver 20 barb woundbleeder 17 barb woundreaver 20 ftr woundheal 18 cl
woundedsoul 20 fvs woundedfist 20 monk woundshadow 20 fvs woundtoaster 20 wiz woundtusk 15 monk
Maybe. Impulse buy items stuck at the checkout counter certainly do make money. However, do they make more money then what brought you into the store in the first place?
Depends on the player I guess. For me 99% of the cash spent in the store was not for these impulse buys. Considering that is still over 100 dollars that is not a bad chunk of change for Turbine.
I guess the real question yet again is has Turbine deluded themselves into thinking that new players will keep on rolling in and that this quick turn over rate of the player base is a good thing as opposed to building the bridges to keep these new players playing for the long run instead of burnng those bridges down by semi-exploitive junk items in the DDO store, dumbing the game down, and ignoring end game?
Proud Recipient of At least 8 Negative Rep From NA Threads.
Main: Sharess
Alts: Avaril/Cyr/Cyrillia/Garagos/Inim/Lamasa/Ravella
Well put. I generally support this perspective. There needs to be balance though, as it is a multiplayer game. The trouble is that if you sell something in the store to make the game (or a particular challenge) easy and I choose not to buy it, I then look weak when I join a group and the other 5 people in group have bought this thing.
I'm not too concerned about this because I am godlike just due to my own awesomeness, but it is a potential problem for the small people who also play this game.![]()
Sarlona - Nyr Dyv RaidersBloodbath, Smasher · Sonnkral, Finisher · Sentient, Caster
You are correct, those players who want the challenge should be able to have it, and those who don't should be able to ease the challenge. That it the point behind the store item. Those who want the challenge don't buy the item. Those who find the challenge excesive to the point of not being fun have the option to buy the item.
This allows both groups to play at the level that provides them the most fun. The objectionable statement was that they not have the item and everyone be forced to play a certain way.
I should quantify my statements about pugs a bit.
I have pugged most quests, and spent at least half of the 4 years in DDO pugging.
Before, when the game was much harder even at low levels (waterworks on hard often wiped groups, the kobold warriors were tough back then), you had to learn fast if you wanted to go up levels, as the xp death penalty would really punish you if you sucked... and elite required REAL playing ability and gear.
Threnal and Co6 elite loot runs required good groups, planning, and good gear not easy to get to break dr, where now any decent level 10-12 can solo it even on elite. I saw good groups, where people could go one to one with an elite Render or Fire Reaver, where a group of poor players with poor gear would wipe on the same fight. There were no easy buttons then. To get to higher level you had to learn to build a good character, or else you had other good players carrying you, but you couldnt run elite quests with 1-2 good people and 4 pikers like now.
I rerolled several melee types, and my first archer build, because the first weaker builds I made couldnt hack it past level 6 to how I wanted to play - and by that I mean not getting killed on the first 2 groups of monsters, or having to stop every single fight and chug 10 pots all the time. once I build my first real melee, he could fight elite monsters one on one and win, and then move on after a few pots or wand whiping, many could not do that.
Then monsters started getting toned down. new players were getting creamed even at low levels and quitting apparently - but not many cared if Waterworks and lower level stuff was easy. But now a lot of the game is easier than it was before, with the exception of Amrath quests now pretty much.
The result before was high level group tended to be mostly good players. If a person was bad, and kept getting death penalties every quest, they would take forever to level until they learned better. So pugs would be like 80% good players say, and then 20% horrid pugs. Low level pugs were often bad unless it was vets making new characters, but then that was not really a huge issue for anyone good.
Now that % is going lower and lower of good high level pugs. I still pug a lot, but avoid it more and more. There are still tons of groups where a random raid or pug of people you dont know blow through a quest like it is butter - but then that 20% fail rate is going up, so if it is 30%, or 40% - those odds of a bad group make it not worthwhile to spend an hour beating your head against a wall in a higher level raid or tough quests. (And you can watch it happen over and over again in the lfm panel - bad leaders/groups/known players - post for the same raid over and over again all night long, and then again the next day - meaning they keep wiping on the same Hound say 5 times a night - because they SUCK, no matter they are level 20)
There are at least a half dozen well known players I can think of at the top of my head that are level 20, after a full TR, and most people on the server think they are a total joke - because they are competing for the worst player on the server prize. Yet they got to level 20 not once, but twice, while still being bad and often useless in a quest.
For some it may be 'I want to stroke my ego with how good I am and dont want other weak players having the same stuff as I have' mentality, but a lot of it is the fact that you can no longer rely on the fact that a high level player is useful, because many now not only do not add to the quest, they make the quest HARDER than just leaving that spot empty - and that is a pretty big issue for the game long term - at least for players.
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Then the other point - about new players not learning anything from vets zerging like mad through stuff is also a big issue.
Some people used to help, or at least slow down and let a new player experience the quest without blowing it for them - but Turbine is not encouraging that at all.
TR, more TR - and you have to run 4.25 million xp to level, and grind 20 raids out just for 1 item or tome - no one wants to waste time on gimps that cant keep up.
I feel bad for new players stuck in a group with a couple of zergers - but then that is the way the game is being designed. If a single quest gave some real rewards, rather than having to run something 10-20 times to get anything out of it - as xp and loot keeps getting nurfed over and over again - if I have to run something on my TR, or new build 10 times I dont want to spend 10 times guiding yet more new freepers through the same things for the measly 3500 xp now say Stormcleave is worth. Get it done, get it done fast, and move on because you have millions more xp to go just to get back to level 20.
And after you have run any quest 100+ times, your not doing it to see the sights.
So part of the reason is that quests are so easy now that 1 person can run ahead and solo most of the quest, maybe need a heal or two or a haste, or a key firewall - but new players tagging along behind are not learning anything but how to follow the trail of empty rooms and dead bodies and that they need more haste just to keep up. Other than end fights which are harder, which is only why many people pug at all as you can solo the first 90% of a quest say, when the whole quest should be harder overall.
Harder quests would force people to slow down, and play better, slower = more learning time too.
Like Goldy said - STK used to be TOUGH, and require planning to do the end fight. Now it does not, and many people either solo it or skip it as the xp is less, so not even worth doing half the time. But people that went through STK runs learned how to coordinate a group and plan a strategy - or else they wiped and get nothing for their time.
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Players should have to compete at something hard to level up. Yeah the easy $$ of easy quests is good I guess for Turbine for now, but it also annoys long time players. Many people have said on a regular basis "I wish they brought the death penalty back - people are getting too stupid now and level up without learning".
While the death penalty would be really harsh when your TR, and some quests are very easy to die in, level levels really could use it.
but then as someone who doesnt want to spent any more time in low levels after a 1000 ww runs, being able to zerg to at least level 12 is nicer than having to grind out every quest.
But a player that reaches level 20 should have had to work for it. Long term it makes for better players, better pugs, and a better game.
But then short term easy = $$. So that is what we are getting.
Last edited by Riggs; 08-18-2010 at 01:08 PM.
Hehe in response to the bold just got off the phone with dell, they had to send me a new system completely and were trying to tell me id have to wait another 2 weeks, got them down to maybe one. Im a bear without my coffee x_x lol. And yeah without my gaming rig and not being able to play on this one its a lot easier for me to be snarky so been trying to be calm. Just cant stand the idea that people think that its just about the store. I know Sirea's op talked about the slippery slope started by adding it, but its not the only factor in the game. Hell I wouldnt care about the store period if it did not come on top of other blatant changes that we cant do anything about. One of my favorite testing quests for my newly built rogues was STK now that quest is a joke. DO you know how many groups I had fail that end fight but we dusted off and went back in sometimes less two people who were just too flustered to go in again.
Not saying everyone has to play this way but give those of us who liked the challenge options. Give us our Hard and Elite back. Even those levels are a joke now that end fight in stk lasts maybe a hot second now even without adamantine weapons. Im just tired of people thinking the only solutions is to gimp ourselves, not play with others who use the store and other simplistic things instead of us asking the company to think about the rest of us. I have no problem now with those who want casual and normal to be a cake walk but the eliminating challenges have to stop. On Hard and Elite return the traps to their deadly aspects, give us the you fall you fail in Von's 2 and for Pete's sake have those darn Orcs lock up their shrines and make the parties lives a living hell. Thats the ddo id like to see and if we are going to play give options to make it easy for some, where are the options to make it challenging for the others? Thats all im asking.
Lost Legions Officer and Resident Diva! *Welp now I'm a Twitch Streamer* Follow me on Twitter @Kalarigamerchic
The loyal player base, for various reasons, dwindled enough that F2P had to happen.
I have never seen a player use a bell of opening. I have never seen a player use a resurrection cake. I have no idea what tomes people used or where they got them and neither does anyone else. The gear in the store is trash. People are all up in arms about self sufficiency and all up in arms about DDO store pot usage. That's funny.
The content certainly is easier but it has nothing to do with the store. There are plenty of F2P players that don't use store items. Tarrants question was more content nerfs or store easy button. Store easy button would be a good choice, as you need not play with easy button players more than once ... or even ever.
Will things ever get harder again? Probably not but maybe if there is enough demand for it. Create demand!
If noobs bother you:
A Educate them.
B Don't play with them.
C Don't play at all.
D Gripe about it on the forums until you feel better.
If content nerfs bother you:
A Make it harder on yourself.
B Don't play at all.
C Gripe about on the forums until you feel better.
D Gripe about it on the forums in a more constructive manner in hopes (possibly futile) that some other difficulty option (new hardcore server seems easiest) will appear.
Do not gripe about the store since:
1 It's not going away, ever.
2 It need not have have anything to do with you more than once ... or even ever.
Last edited by Jacket; 08-18-2010 at 01:35 PM.
I think the F2P marketing plan is the entire reason why many new players have their "foot in the door" so to speak. Even in the first week after F2P went live, the increase in new players was easily noticable. The idea is that if those people are going to stick around for the long haul, they are going to spend money at some point in time.
I am sure there are people who use the store as a crutch and guzzle mana potions until blue stuff oozes from their ears, or have a pile of res cakes in the backpack etc..., but many of those people wouldnt even be here playing with us if not for F2P, and the marketing that went along with that. I think without all of the "impulse buy" items in the store, we would still be playing a much more financially successful game than we were when it was subscription only.
I am curious when they are going to change it so Hirelings (and not just Gold-seal either) will be allowed into Raids. Because we all know there are A LOT of people that really enjoy the game by soloing with Hirelings. Are they not going to be allowed to play the game their way?
(Note: I am mostly being facetious here, although it probably wouldn't be such a bad thing...)
Hmmm, you do bring up a good point, especially since it is possible to obtain certain items(portable rest shrines, for example) that can also be baught from the DDO store. One good example would probably be The Coalescence Chamber on elite. It's a tough quest on elite, and many players(Including myself) do not like it at all. However, if you get at least 3 small ebberon dragonshard fragments, you can trade them in for a self-use rest shrine, which could be espeically beneficial for casters. Coalescence Chamber is probably one of several quests in this game where the challenge is endurance. If you want, you can be hardcore and try completing it by using only one(or none!) rest shrines, or if your not so good like I am, you can try collecting ebberon dragonshard fragments, and get a portable rest shrine to increase your endurance.
This part I can agree with whole heartedly. Keep the game challenging for those that like the challenge. It is alot easier to offer options to those that don't want as much challenge than it is to make weeker content more challenging for those who want it to be.
So, get the difficulty back up for the tasks and put the onus on the player to choose the High road or the Low road.
Yep I remember the days Ron had a thread going about solo questing. Now a days people put snarky comments to those who solo because with the store and scaling its not what it used to be. Heck back in the day even normal used to give a soloer some challenge if they did not know the quest. Now I just dont know.
My whole thing is im not anti store I used to be cant lie about that anyone going back to my post last year knows I was doom saying the darn thing. I still dont like certain items being sold but hey revenue is revenue.
What I dont understand and fail to get even with Tarrant's thought provoking post is why in their quest to make the game more accessible to those frustrated with the quests being too hard or challenging did no one stop to go, okay for normal and casual lets implement scaling, change the layout some. But for hard and elite lets keep the dungeon the same, leave the need for tactics and smarts in. Is it because it would have broken things? Clear communication on why we could not allow hard and elite to stay the same would go a long way. There should be no shame in saying hey if we tried to make it where the quest reverts back to the original phase for hard/elite it may bug things we are trying to find a medium but right now take it as it is and make your own challenges till we find a way. That to me would calm at least my ranting down some.
But the whole "well were thinking of those who thought the game was too challenging" and supposedly quitting behind such. Do you even realize such a statement give credence to the sentiment many of us got called out for? The feeling that out with the old in with the new? and who cares about your long terms if they are not satisfied let them hit the highway? I truly dont want to believe this is the case but when communications only extend to why changes are necessary to make it accessible for those who want ease when no one is answering why we cannot keep challenges just frustrates me.
Lost Legions Officer and Resident Diva! *Welp now I'm a Twitch Streamer* Follow me on Twitter @Kalarigamerchic
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Minimize expectations and you'll never be disappointed
Thanks for all of your responses!
I've summarized some of the more common responses to my question. Apologies if I didn't respond to your specific piece of feedback, but there are a lot of you.
Dumbing down the game/easy button is making it so that new players don't learn to play, and our high level PUGS are filled with bad players.
Here's a fun fact: The vast majority of high level characters are on accounts that were created way way before free to play launched. Those bad PUGS at high level? Same people you were playing with before September 2009.
Just make the monster easier on casual/normal difficulties.
This is something we certainly take into consideration, but just because one monster can be too challenging does not mean the entire quest needs to be run on a lower difficulty level.
Not all parts of the game should be completable by all players/leave it as it is.
Yes, not all parts of the game are designed for all kind of player. Some parts are for stealthier players, some are for more hardcore players (raids), but we would like the majority of the game to be available to the majority of players in a way that they enjoy. Using the store to selectively alter parts of an encounter allows people to receive the maximum satisfaction possible from playing our game, which is obviously important to us.
Sell it but make it available in-game too.
This is reasonable, and certainly something we strive to do. The vast, vast majority of our items that affect in-game play have a comparable counterpart available in-game. And as always, we monitor feedback and make adjustments based on it.
They'll learn they can just swipe a card and beat the game that way.
I see this sentiment repeated frequently on the forums, as if the store is some kind of infinite "I win" button. People tend to like their money though, and if presented with two choices, one which is free and one which has a price tag, they will usually make a reasonable attempt to take the free path. This does not apply to everyone of course (those with significantly more money than time in particular) but assuming that someone will buy from the store without second thought because it's consequence free is incorrect.
We did just fine without the store before - Why the change now?
Many of you did do fine without the store, but old DDO wasn't working for us. Old DDO could be overly punishing in a way many players did not enjoy. With DDO Unlimited, one of our main goals was to customize the game experience as best we could. Dungeon scaling, hirelings, and casual difficulty mode are a part of that, but so is the Store. At the end of the day, there will always be players that want something to be tougher for everyone, but we need to think of the whole. I bet our permadeathers would love if the entire game had a forced permadeath rule set!
Today, we have a much more diverse group of players who all seek different ways to accomplish something, and we seek to accommodate them while not ruining the experience for others.
They should learn to be better players.
And they will, see point 4. Just because there is an option in the Store to assist someone does not mean a player wants to use it. In general, players want to overcome challenges and obstacles themselves. However for the times they don't, for whatever reason, they can get a little help from the Store.
Make things better for the colorblind!
We're trying to add labels to everything that is color required.![]()