Propsed Bladesinger

[iceman112163]

I've put together an elven Bladesinger through the DDO Character Generator and put together this build. I have not advanced too far into the game, level 6 has been my highest achievement so far. That being said, please go easy on my build as this is the first one I've composed. My motivation for this build goes back to the Complete Book of Elves from 2nd Edition AD&D and have not seen it really translate/transfer into 3rd Edition. I have yet to play 4th Edition but that might change soon enough.

Regardless, I've done some research into the class/prestige class/kit and there are still some aspects that have remained true to the first incarnation of the Bladesinger:
1) - No shields...EVER!
2) - Long sword is the weapon of choice
3) - Reduced penalty for arcane spellcasting
4) - Use of mithral armour
5) - No higher than medium armour

Limitation of high end spell casting have made me go so far as to make the Bladesinger a combination of Fighter 8/Wizard 12. I focused primarily on Weapon Specialization:Long Sword as well as incorporating Two Weapon Fighting and even Two Weapon Blocking. Keep in mind, again, I have no experience with content past level 6 so this build is very skewed. Rationale for taking the Two Weapon Blocking is to substitute a weapon for a shield, preferably a long sword. I would like constructive criticism for the choice of weapon, would long sword, rapier or even a scimitar be better overall. I am fully aware this will change things quite a bit with feat selection.

As for Wizard feats, my choices were Mental Toughness, Quicken Spell and Extend Spell. Wizad based feats: Combat Castiing and Mobile Casting. A list of Starting Stats, Feats, Skills, and Enhancements are given below. I cannot factor in equipment or any expectation of any tomes so go easy on me in that regard.

So without further ado...

Stats

St 16
Dx 16
Cn 14
In 14
Wi 8
Ch 8

Skills:
Concentration 4/21
Balance 2/16/
Tumble 2/16
Use Magical Device 2/10

I worked on all these skills to the end. The numbers are: starting/finishing. UMD seems low, I'll look into that again later.

Character Level: 20
Alignment: True Neutral
Race: Elf
Sex: Male
HP: 260
SP: 859
Class 1: Fighter (8)
Class 2: Wizard (12)
BAB: 14/14/19/24
Fort: 12
Refl: 11
Will: 9

Stat Increases:
Level 4: Int
Level 8: Int
Level 12: Dex
Level 16: Str
Level 20: Str

Level Progression:
1 - Wizard
2 - 5 Fighter
6 - 16 Wizard
17- 20 Fighter

Feats:
1 - Mental Toughness & Toughness
2 - Weapon Focus:Slashing Weapons
3 - Dodgge & Two Weapon Fighting
5 - Weapon Specialization:Slashing Weapons
6 - Mobility
9 - Combat Casting & Extend Spell
12 - Mobile Spellcasting
14 - Quicken Spell
15 - Improved Critical:Slashing Weapons
18 - Improved Two Weapon Fighting & Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
20 - Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Spell Selection I focused on buffs when possible and then damage and then crowd control spells. I'm fully aware this is a support fighter and caster build so I chose not to go too crazy on DPS spells as the primary form of magical expression.

Finally Enhancements were as follows:
1 - Elcen Arcanum 1, Aerenal Elf Melee Damage 1, Wizard Energy of the Scholar 1
2 - Elven Arcane Fluidity 1, Fighter Critical Accuracy 1, Fighter Toughness 1
3 - Fighter Armour Class Boost 1, Racial Toughness 1, Fighter Strength 1
4 - Elven Dexterity 1, Aerenal Elf Melee Attack 1
5 - Fighter Critical Accuracy 2, Fighter Toughness 2
6- Elven Arcane Fluidity 2
7 - Racial Toughness 2, Wizard Intelligence 1
8 - Aerenal Elf Melee Damage 2
9 - Elven Dexterity 2
10 - Aerenal Elf Melee Attack 2
11 - Wizard Energy of the Scholar 2
12 - Elven Arcane Fluidity 3
13 - Wizard Intelligence 2
14 - Wizard Energy of the Scholar 3
16 - Wizard Intelligence 3
17 - Fighter armour Class Boost 3, Elven Arcanum 2 & 3
19 - Fighter Strength 2, Fighter Toughness 3
20 - Fighter Armour Class Boost 3, Fighter Haste 1, Longsword Specialization 1

Again any constructive feedback is greatly appreciated.

[r3dl4nce]

melee + arcane caster NEED warforged. To self heal.

[iceman112163]

I am well aware that Warforged need arcane spellcasting for efficient healing but the build itself is for an elf. I have put some thought into acquiring Repair spells as I gain access to new levels but if I do so, I will try to remember to keep any WF companions alive. Keep in mind though that such a role is usually not the job of an arcane caster. My maximum spell level selection is six.

If the overall feedback is positive I'll probably incorporate something similiar for a Warforged build.

[Darkrok]

Any reason you went 12 wizard over 12 fighter? Bladesingers typically used their spells to augment their fighting while maybe tossing out the odd fireball or such. Are there any level 5 or level 6 spells that you feel strongly you need for that flavor in the build? Because I know you won't be taking the pre for 12 wizard (Pale Master does NOT fit in with a Bladesinger) but Kensei II certainly does fit in. You'd still be able to get your own shield/nightshield, haste, blur, displacement, stone skin, etc, you'll have 2 free caster metamagic feats (which means easy room for Extend given that we're on a fighter 12 build and getting the extra 7 martial feats that entails). You might even be able to fit in arcane archer if you want to really play up the elf end of things as you'll have a large number of feats (16 in all) and might have the room for both Kensei II and Arcane Archer.

Obviously this isn't an 'uber' build but it could be surprisingly durable if you keep up stoneskin/displacement. Finally, I'd give serious thought to going 12 fighter/7 wizard/1 rogue or bard to get access to UMD. Not sure if you'll have the skill points for it (that would depend on how much int you took and you could actually get by on this build with an 8 int) but if you can fit in the skill points it would be well worth it. You're not getting much from either 13 fighter or 8 wizard so that 1 level of bard or rogue for UMD and extra starting skill points could be very nice.

[r3dl4nce]

So why not play an elf bard dual wielding scimitars? Buffs, songs, heals and melee...

[iceman112163]

Darkrok

Thank you for the feedback. I chose initially to focus more on the Wizard than Fighter because of the what felt like the role playing aspect of a greater focus on spellcasting versus melee. You have prompted me to reconsider that choice and having read a few articles, the general consensus is a much greater emphasis on melee over magic. Believe me, I wish Turbine had more options available for more prestige classes than the Pale Master. I found reference with a 2nd Ed. entry on the kit and necromancy as a school is expressly forbidden. It really does not suit the class as well as the racial background.

Regardless, your suggestion has greater merit than I had considered before. I had briefly made a level 4 Bladesinger with a Sorcerer/Fighter combination but I found the skill point allocation to be deficient to say the least. Even with a lower level and Charisma score it does not fit into my mindset to make a good build. I am certain someone else can work things out better than I can so I leave that to others to take the challenge if the need is felt. So, following your advice I will pursue a first level rogue to commence the path. Truth be told, I was trying to keep it true to the origins but given the lack of enhancements and the aforementioned Pale Master prestige class, it is a tough choice to get it all to fit in just right.

That being said, I will work out a build that is a 13 Fighter/1 Rogue/7 Wizard. I will keep you posted.

[Quanefel]

OP, good ideas. If you want to look at a capped 12/8 ftr/mage "Bladesinger" build then look up mine in MyDDO. Name of character is Sabrine on Khyber server.

[Darkrok]

I've got a very carefully thought out build for you. This build was pretty difficult to make as balancing requirements between the two main classes (and 3 overall) especially when it came to bab requirements was quite a headache but in the end I was ecstatic with the results. I went longswords as per your original request but a version that took Valenar Elf Melee lines instead of Aerenal and use scimitars would do quite a bit more damage any time you can crit thanks to the better crit profile on the scimitar. Other than changes from long sword to scimitar in the kensei enhancements and from Valenar to Aerenal they would be identical.

I'll comment more on this in the next post after I put the build up.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.0
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Neutral Good Elf Male
(12 Fighter \ 7 Wizard \ 1 Bard) 
Hit Points: 316
Spell Points: 502 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 13
Reflex: 12
Will: 11

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             17                 25                   28
Dexterity            16                 18                   18
Constitution         14                 16                   16
Intelligence         11                 13                   14
Wisdom                8                 10                   10
Charisma              8                 10                   10

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 20

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
Balance               7                 16                   16
Bluff                -1                  0                    2
Concentration         2                  3                    5
Diplomacy            -1                  0                    2
Disable Device        n/a               n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -1                  0                    0
Heal                 -1                  0                    0
Hide                  3                  4                    4
Intimidate           -1                  0                    2
Jump                  7                 14                   14
Listen               -1                  0                    2
Move Silently         3                  4                    4
Open Lock             n/a               n/a                   n/a
Perform               3                  4                    4
Repair                0                  2                    2
Search                0                  2                    4
Spot                 -1                  0                    2
Swim                  3                  9                    9
Tumble                7                  8                    8
Use Magic Device      3                 23                   26

Level 1 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Perform (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Dismiss Charm
Feat: (Automatic) Elven Keen Senses
Feat: (Automatic) Enchantment Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Fascinate
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Immunity to Sleep
Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Courage
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longbow
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak


Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Tower Shield Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Trip


Level 3 (Fighter)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 4 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell
Feat: (Automatic) Inscribe Scroll
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training


Level 5 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 6 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons


Level 7 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 8 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 9 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


Level 11 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 14 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Mental Toughness


Level 15 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 17 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Quick Draw
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device


Level 19 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Attack II
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Kensei Longsword Mastery I
Enhancement: Kensei Longsword Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) III
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) IV
Enhancement: Fighter Longsword Specialization I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness IV
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery I
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery II

[Darkrok]

Ok, comments.

First of all, excuse the excess tome usage. All you really need is a +1 str tome (to end on an even number), a +1 dex tome (for TWF line), a +1 int tome at level 3 (because I hate having low balance), and a +2 int tome at level 17 (to allow you to cast level 4 wizard spells without the use of an int item - obviously not needed if you don't mind the item). You'll need to use an item or buff to allow the use of bard spells anyways unless you happen to pull a +3 cha tome. I threw the rest in both to show what the build would end up with given some love and to avoid having to think about when I needed what.

This build really needs the love you get from 32-point builds. You want as much str as possible but given the type of gear you'll want to wear you don't want to drop int too low and force yourself to wear a caster item just to cast your spells. I sacrificed one point in str to raise the int up - a tradeoff I was willing to make - but losing any more str than that would be off-limits. I could even see an argument for going ahead with 8 int and requiring a +6 int item to cast spells but that makes it much tougher to equip this toon.

Going through the class selections we'll start with the choice for bard. I don't think Fighter 13 or Wizard 8 gets us anything very exciting so that begs the question as to what else we should take. For a one level splash I feel there's nothing out there worth as much as UMD. So that gave us a choice between bard and rogue. Rogue would give us some sneak attack damage (1d6+3 with 1ap spent) and therefore would have been more pure damage. It would also let us open a lot of locks with the right items as well as possibly get some traps early on. It's a completely viable alternative and might even fall into the more 'powerful' category.

But bard gives us things that I felt fit better with the entire Spellsinger motif. We could either take a focusing chant or a cure light wounds spell that would both be a nice addition to our arcane spells and fit the fighting caster motif. We have no arcane spell failure in light armor too which means we don't have to run around in our pajamas - we can toss on some mithril chainmail and look like a Bladesinger. And we do get a weak but usable bard song once a day. It won't be much but in some groups - and especially some raids - that +1 hit/damage might be worth more to the raid than the 1d6+3 sneak attack damage you'd have added if there isn't another bard there.

The rest of the levels are simply taken at the right times to try and get our feats at the best times we can. There's nearly no flexibility to when we take our wizard levels assuming we want to get iTWF, iCrit, and gTWF at the levels that most 3/4 bab classes take them (9, 12, and 15 respectively). This does mean that Haste doesn't come until level 14 but to have a viable melee toon that's the choice you have to make there.

As I always like to do I'll post a simplistic HP breakdown for the 'basics' only.

Base: 316hp
Minos: +20hp
+6 Con Item: +60hp
GFL Item: +30hp
Arg Favor: +10hp
Total: 436hp with typical gear for a starting level 20

Shroud HP Item: +45hp
Optionally Dropping Skill Focus: UMD for another Toughness: +20hp
Total: 501hp

So this toon will have enough hp's to do its job as a melee. Its to-hit will be decent - it has an acceptable str score, oTWF, focus, greater focus, and long sword mastery II. In addition, you could add even more to its to-hit by using divine power clickies. Given this build's low overall bab (ends up equal to a 3/4 character) that's quite a bit of room for improvement coming from those clickies.

Finally, this build can do very well with stunning things. Toss a stunning +10 weapon in the offhand to get the bonus and you'll have a solid dc for the enemies to overcome.

10 base
+12 str bonus (34 str without any buffs)
+10 stunning +10 weapon
+4 Fighter Strategy: Stunning Blow
+2 Kensei II
Total 38 DC unbuffed

I can say from experience that 36 DC does pretty well. You'd be running at LEAST 39 DC if you just self-buffed Rage. If you have someone else buffing you and you're running madstone boots, Yug pots, etc, it will be much better than that. It's not something we specifically built for but it's something that was worth the 10AP's in Fighter Strategy to have in the tool kit.

[Darkrok]

One other thought on the bard/rogue issue. While in the end I took the Wizard Wand/Scroll enhancements for 3AP's to get to 35% we couldn't get there until character level 14 and the AP's will usually be tight on this toon so we couldn't afford to do so anyways. Bard opens up a 30% boost for a single AP starting at level 1. For a class with full ranks in UMD and the ability to use Cure wands that's a big boon. You'll be able to wand heal starting at level 1 and will be more effective in doing so until level 14 at which both builds can do so equally well if you're willing to spend the 3ap's.

[Darkrok]

While it wouldn't fit with the original purpose this build does have a spare at any point from level 6 on (since Stunning Blow is not critical to the build). For a Warforged version you could slide Stunning Blow down to another level (whenever fits best...in place of oTWF for instance if you have no trouble with to-hit, etc) and take Khopesh proficiency. The AP's wouldn't allow you to do everything but this would allow you to do things like get even more bonus in Stunning Blow (or save AP's on the current bonus by taking the 2 point WF'd bonus instead of the 4 point T4 fighter bonus), get more dps through the power attack line, etc. The added bonus is that you would be able to cast repair critical wounds on yourself from your SP pool instead of wand/scrolling heals. Your charisma would be too low to cast without an item even if you got a +4 cha tome but honestly when we're talking about a first level bard spell that's no big loss. Stat-wise you'd actually be the same where it matters - you'd just be down two points of wis and two points of cha.

Again, not the point of the OP but the build itself works out with either race and actually you drop 12ap's from the elven version since you're not taking the weapon enhancements. You could then drop 1ap in the sp area and pick up healer's friend I for 2ap's, the entire power attack line for 6ap's, Tactics I for 2ap's, and Toughness III for 3ap's. Just once example...all those lines could be useful to take further if we didn't cap it...but paying that one extra feat buys us a lot more options to gain power on the enhancement end. We would be -3/+3 then from power attack instead of +2/+2 from the elven enhancements. We'd be getting an extra 10hp's from the toughness (and could actually get 40 more from 6 points spent in con and 7 points spent in toughness). Again, lots more options but we would have to make some sacrifices somewhere.

[iceman112163]

I was hoping to get more responses from other readers but you have presented more than I would have expected. I was not happy with the choice of bard and it compromises my stats but I can work around it. I think. I have found the rogue splash to be more sympathetic and down right easier to use. As for your use of tomes, I can't comment on them as I have never seen one and I doubt I will easily get a hold of any. That being stated, I'm making my builds assuming none will ever be available except through the DDO store and my credit card. I have veteran status and the 32 point build so I know I have more to work with.

What I find baffling is any referral to this being a Warforged build in any way, shape and form. Again, if I ever wanted a WF build I'd have done so on the WF forum section. Nothing personal to any and all comments about that race but I'm going to pretend such things do not exist with my thread. I'll put this through the DDO character generator and see what comes out at me and I will let you know my results. Although I am sure you know what to expect.

[agent00skid]

Considering how much time Darkrok seems to have put into this, I don't see your comment on WF as needing that rough edge.

Edit: Oh, and I hope there comes nothing more of this, just felt like I had to say it.

[Rav'n]

So why not play an elf bard dual wielding scimitars? Buffs, songs, heals and melee...

Cus then he'd be playing me... and that ain't happening...

[iceman112163]

My comments about ignoring the WF suggestions was not directed at Darkrok, rather the first suggestion of it to begin with. Radience, I am sorry but I never wanted or asked for anything regarding a WF build.

[agent00skid]

Ohh, my bad.

Can see that it fits better there.
Hope you find a satisfying build.

[honkuimushi]

Have you considered Fighter 12/ Wizard 6/ Rogue 2? You lose level 4 spells, but you gain Evasion and more skill points. You still get self cast Haste, Displacement, Blur, False Life, and Shield /Nightshield. It would make maxing UMD easier and while traps will be out of your league, you can open a lot of doors with just 5 ranks in OL. Just make sure you start Rogue.

For stats, I would do this with a 28 point build:

Str 16
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 8
Chr 8

For a 32 point build, I would put the extra points in Con. You really don't need your Int that high, but I would like to start at a 12 and I don't see where 2 ponts in another stat would help you that much. Ideally, you would want a +1 Dex tome to raise your Dex to 17 before your take ITWF, but in a pinch, you could put 1 level up into Dex(probably at level 8) and the rest into Str. For weapons, scimitar or rapier are the best choices, depending on whether you choose Valenar or Aerenal. Rapier is actually an option in the 3.5 Bladesinger PrC. Arcane Archer would be an interesting addition to this build, but it could make APs pretty tight and does distract a bit from the blade focus.

This build should be viable, but not really optimal. Practiced Spellcaster would help a great deal, but unfortunately, that's not in the game. Alternatively, you could go with a Bard 18/ Fighter 2 or a Bard 16/ Fighter 2 / Rogue 2 Warchanter and get many of the same buffs plus some better bard buffs, a better UMD, and you actually sing. In the long term, this would be the more powerful build.

[iceman112163]

My starting stats are
16
16
14
14
8
8

I put together a Bard/Fighter/Wizard (1/12/7) and those are
15
15
14
14
8
11

I had envisioned this build to be a good support role focusing on getting his hands dirty when the need arose. Looking at things now, stat-wise, it seems more evident that a Weapon Finesse build is a prudent method of character development. Being a more realistic player, as much as I like long swords, they will have to be let go for a set of rapiers. Then again khopeshes look very tempting now but I will not get the bonus for to hit and damage with either elf AP selection.

Now as for the suggestion to only go up to level 6 for arcane spellcasting for the wizard part...I cannot. I've kept the blade'singing' to a minimum (bard) and intend to remain that way. Stoneskin will be an important part of this build regardless of the ability to use wands or scrolls. If I want a real buffing machine I would look at re-working a Virtuoso of the Sword but truth be told, I can't fully grasp the subtle nature of the bard class at all. A friend of mine swears by bards, and I can appreciate them overall but playing them? Not my style. I know I will not fully utilize a bard past level 2.

[Darkrok]

If I want a real buffing machine I would look at re-working a Virtuoso of the Sword but truth be told, I can't fully grasp the subtle nature of the bard class at all. A friend of mine swears by bards, and I can appreciate them overall but playing them? Not my style. I know I will not fully utilize a bard past level 2.

You're right to make the decision to not play the bard if it doesn't fit to your play style. It's one of those classes that can do so much and has so many subtle decisions to make that play style can make it or break it. Knowing when to CC (and EVERY bard can CC with Fascinate at the very least), when to CC cast (and again, any pure bard at least has a respectable irresistible dance), when to buff (and how many buffs to cast to assure sp's last), when to heal, when to melee, when to range, etc. is a balancing act. My virtuoso I'm playing right now is probably my best pre-level 12 soloist I've played. Firewalling 2rogue/12wizard I have is very good as well but if things are immune to spells he lacks melee punch. If all else fails the bard can just beat them to a pulp.

[honkuimushi]

I had envisioned this build to be a good support role focusing on getting his hands dirty when the need arose. Looking at things now, stat-wise, it seems more evident that a Weapon Finesse build is a prudent method of character development. Being a more realistic player, as much as I like long swords, they will have to be let go for a set of rapiers. Then again khopeshes look very tempting now but I will not get the bonus for to hit and damage with either elf AP selection.

I'm curious what Weapon Finesse will accomplish. Your Dex will not be noticably higher than your Str and AC will not be a factor past level 10 on this build. You can use rapiers without Weapon Finesse and they are superior to longswords in terms of damage because of the crit potential. I can't see Weapon Finesse as anything more than a wasted feat.

Now as for the suggestion to only go up to level 6 for arcane spellcasting for the wizard part...I cannot. I've kept the blade'singing' to a minimum (bard) and intend to remain that way. Stoneskin will be an important part of this build regardless of the ability to use wands or scrolls.

I'm not sure what you mean here. A single level of Wizard will allow you to use all wands on the Wizard spell lists. Wizard scrolls can be used with a caster level check, but a high UMD will allow you to use any scroll. The question is, what 4th level spells do you want? Wall of Fire is nice. At caster level of 7, it won't overpower anything but Fighting in your wall does add a nice chunk of damage. Fireshield can be useful, cutting Fire/Cold and giving yourself a guard. The issue is the short duration, though extending it is an option. Dimension Door is occasionally useful and scrolls are not in stores. All of those are useful for this character. Stoneskin, not so much. As a 7th level caster, your Stoneskin is identical to a wand cast version. It requires a special component that is more expensive and takes up an extra inventory slot. And wands are sold in the 12.

I can see the attraction of 4th level spells, but honestly, I think Evasion and skills are more valuable. I also think that you're not getting much benefit from your Bard level. Bard 1 will give you 1 weak song, that is about as powerful as a Bless spell. The big things are unlocking Cure wands and UMD. Rogue gives you UMD as well, and more damage. Cure wands would have to be unlocked through UMD which would take longer, but the Rogue option is stronger in the long term.