The turning cleric...not a build discussion!

[The-Last-Wolf]

Hi All,

There are a few errors in some of the turning numbers being thrown around here. I suggest you read this very informative threads (part 2 link is in part 1) for more details

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=167986

A summary
To destroy undead you have to have twice the effective level as HD of the undead.
My best calculation as to maximum effective level is

Cleric Lvl 20
Feats Enhancements +4
Item (Seraphim or Orb) +2
Seek Eternal Rest +4

So Effective level =30 - Destroy undead of 15HD or less

I have not TR's my cleric yet, so I cannot speak definitively on the Past life feat, but all evidence from descriptions and other threads is that it adds +2 to your effective level

So Max I suggest would be

Cleric Lvl 20
TR x 3 +6
Feats Enhancements +4
Item (Seraphim or Orb) +2
Seek Eternal Rest +4

So Effective level =36 - Destroy undead of 18HD or less.

I won't go into the calculations for Highest HD and Number of HD effected as this is done in the attached threads in detail.

Regards
Wolf

[bunitchu]

I agree that the dead should not benefit from deathward. However, this game is already too easy so an option to bypass deathward so you can one shot the undead with your custom elite turnundead skills is just not going to make this game a challenge.

it isnt a matter of them "benefiting" from it...their immunities already include death ward effects by race, its like they have a undispellable death ward 100% of the time because what death ward gives is preciselly a part of what the race gives...yet, by some misconception, implosion manages to work on the undeads who SHOULD have a natural deathward..but doesnt work on anything that is buffed with the dang thing...quite a big bad flaw from the devs...dontcha think?

[parvo]

No. There's nothing wrong with the way my clerics are built.

Its a simple truth that at mid-level, Halt Undead clickies are more efffective than max spec'd turning.




You even admit its gimped, by implying a cleric needs to reincarnate three times to be effective. For Delera's? Please....



Then you go asking in another thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=264037 obviously ignorant of what I'm talking about. The responses are similar to mine:





So have a clue what you're talking about before you tell someone "reroll"



/before you go pound sand, please advise me of good server (other than Thelanis) for Permadeath. I'm ready to try it.

If you can't destroy undead in Delera's I think you're doing something wrong. Is your cleric a Radiant Servant?

Assuming level 8 cleric the HD of mob you can turn/destroy:

8 cleric level
+4 Turning Check Roll
+1 Cleric Improved Turning Enhancement
+1 Improved Turning Feat
+2 Sacred Item
+4 Seek Eternal Rest
= at least 20 (there may be some more bonuses somewhere)

So, you're saying the trash in Delera's has higher than 20 HD? I don't think so.

The best PD is in my guild on Argo. You're welcome to join.

[parvo]

Hi All,

There are a few errors in some of the turning numbers being thrown around here. I suggest you read this very informative threads (part 2 link is in part 1) for more details

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=167986

A summary
To destroy undead you have to have twice the effective level as HD of the undead.
My best calculation as to maximum effective level is

Cleric Lvl 20
Feats Enhancements +4
Item (Seraphim or Orb) +2
Seek Eternal Rest +4

So Effective level =30 - Destroy undead of 15HD or less

I have not TR's my cleric yet, so I cannot speak definitively on the Past life feat, but all evidence from descriptions and other threads is that it adds +2 to your effective level

So Max I suggest would be

Cleric Lvl 20
TR x 3 +6
Feats Enhancements +4
Item (Seraphim or Orb) +2
Seek Eternal Rest +4

So Effective level =36 - Destroy undead of 18HD or less.

I won't go into the calculations for Highest HD and Number of HD effected as this is done in the attached threads in detail.

Regards
Wolf

I suggest you read the description of Radiant Servant. You also missed Sacred item bonus that does stack with Seek Eternal Rest spell. I have no idea what that Seraphim or Orb thing is, but it probably stacks.
In Summary, a level 20 cleric can destroy undead with HD = 36 (at least that, + any TR bonuses)

[The-Last-Wolf]

I suggest you read the description of Radiant Servant. You also missed Sacred item bonus that does stack with Seek Eternal Rest spell. I have no idea what that Seraphim or Orb thing is, but it probably stacks.
In Summary, a level 20 cleric can destroy undead with HD = 36 (at least that, + any TR bonuses)

Parvo,

My apologies, you know what I completely missed that part of the RS 1 description. Just goes to show the more you learn the less you know :-).

To clarify my remarks - Seraphim is a helm available from the Orchard Tap runs (instead of minos) It gives the Sacred +2 bonus to effective level and an Additional +2 bonus to the max HD turned

The "orb" bad naming on my part is the Token of the faithful from And the dead shall rise quest in Delera's graveyard. This does the same as Seraphim (not stacking though) as well as adding +4 to total HD (not max)

So by my count that would be

Cleric level 20
Feats/Enhancement chain +4
Seraphim or Token +4
Seek Eternal rest +4
Dice roll up to +4

So I completely agree your max 36 HD turned and thus RS 1 destroyed number.

Cool my Undead specialist cleric (17th currently) is better than I thought LOL

So triple TR would add +6 to that to give a whopping 42 HD

Thanks for the correction parvo I appreciate it and apologies to anyone I mistakenly called mistaken.

Regards
Wolf

[Dracnoth]

Just hit level 18 of my 2nd Cleric TR and I've finally been playing around with turn (after swearing it off prior to RS). I have to say that while it is pretty amazing its use is pretty situational. While in Temple of Vol the other day (was level 16 at the time) I was burst critting most undead in there for highs of 1200 and hitting for around 500ish (Pot 6, full metas, etc). After the first couple of runs the party I was with just let me solo the entire instance because it was easier/safer for me to group everything up and burst. Turn would've got 2-3 of the undead (depending on the types) at a time while I was decimating entire groups of 10+ undead with burst plus keeping myself up at the same time. Turn is great if you are facing 2-3 vamps (use just 1 turn instead of 2-3 bursts) but anything more than that you'll most likely want to be using burst especially since you or your party may be taking dmg anyways.

Another plus to burst is that anything that has epic ward isn't getting turned where burst can still be used (although effectiveness tapers off). Maybe a stun/halt component could be added to turn to make it more in line with the halt undead spell, anything that normally would've been destroyed (but is warded) gets "stunned"/halted instead. IMO with the nerf expending a turn for aura is essentially a waste now (agreed it was OP before but they hit the exact opposite end of the spectrum it should last for 2 min at lvl 20), burst is a much better use of that turn. Clerics really should be the masters of dealing with undead, the recent changes have definitely helped but there is more work to be done.

[parvo]

Just hit level 18 of my 2nd Cleric TR and I've finally been playing around with turn (after swearing it off prior to RS). I have to say that while it is pretty amazing its use is pretty situational. While in Temple of Vol the other day (was level 16 at the time) I was burst critting most undead in there for highs of 1200 and hitting for around 500ish (Pot 6, full metas, etc). After the first couple of runs the party I was with just let me solo the entire instance because it was easier/safer for me to group everything up and burst. Turn would've got 2-3 of the undead (depending on the types) at a time while I was decimating entire groups of 10+ undead with burst plus keeping myself up at the same time. Turn is great if you are facing 2-3 vamps (use just 1 turn instead of 2-3 bursts) but anything more than that you'll most likely want to be using burst especially since you or your party may be taking dmg anyways.

Another plus to burst is that anything that has epic ward isn't getting turned where burst can still be used (although effectiveness tapers off). Maybe a stun/halt component could be added to turn to make it more in line with the halt undead spell, anything that normally would've been destroyed (but is warded) gets "stunned"/halted instead. IMO with the nerf expending a turn for aura is essentially a waste now (agreed it was OP before but they hit the exact opposite end of the spectrum it should last for 2 min at lvl 20), burst is a much better use of that turn. Clerics really should be the masters of dealing with undead, the recent changes have definitely helped but there is more work to be done.

It's my understanding the past life ability stacks up to three times. How many times has your cleric taken the past life ability?

[Dracnoth]

I've acquired the past life feat twice now. I'll be going for completionist so when I do my last cleric I'll have it maxed out. With a base 14 cha and a couple of +turn enhancements I'm sitting at 19 turns. Burst is great for groups as well, just sitting up in the group bursting everyone for full. With the boat buff +10% healing amp and Xachosian + full metas I'm hitting regular for around 200 to each person in the group, which makes for some excellent efficiency and is just insane for holders when it's wiping out negs and ability dmg while healing through antimagic. Also great since it works through quell's where turn undead doesn't (not sure why but not complaining). I also took the selectable feat Initiate of the Faith because I wanted to play around with it. Works like a dragonmark, and is ultra quick, just not entirely sure it's worth the feat slot quite yet.

[AylinIsAwesome]

If you can't destroy undead in Delera's I think you're doing something wrong. Is your cleric a Radiant Servant?

Assuming level 8 cleric the HD of mob you can turn/destroy:

8 cleric level
+4 Turning Check Roll
+1 Cleric Improved Turning Enhancement
+1 Improved Turning Feat
+2 Sacred Item
+4 Seek Eternal Rest
= at least 20 (there may be some more bonuses somewhere)

So, you're saying the trash in Delera's has higher than 20 HD? I don't think so.

The best PD is in my guild on Argo. You're welcome to join.

You seriously expect all Clerics to blow one of their valuable feats on an ability that won't do squat in any content past the Orchard...when they could just bring along a Halt Undead clickie instead?

[Torilin]

I am not sure why your having this problem because I built my cleric to be a healer and a cleric that is specced in turn undead. I can turn the undead in the subterrane fairly easily. Dead ward has nothing to do with turning undead.

For awhile there i thought I was missing something, so i added a couple things and went back to sub t, I can turn 36 hd undead, yet everytime i try to turn the giant skellies in sub t the deathward symbol goes off over their heads. So im pretty sure deathward has everything to do with it.

[Fenrisulven6]

/necro thread

I just want to point out how WRONG I was and how right Parvo was.

Of course, most of you already knew that

[Ereshkigal]

Turn Undead

Turning Check is 1d20+charisma modifier.

+14 Charisma modifier is attainable by maxing attribute, tomes, guild shrines.
+02 Armor of Command

so a modified roll of 17-26 is achievable. If I've researched correctly the Token of the Faithful adds +2 to the maximum hit dice of a single creature that can be turned which makes the max 28 HD here.

Using the table provided here, you can see:

17-18 = +2 to Cleric Level (10%)
19-21 = +3 to Cleric Level (15%)
22+ = +4 to Cleric Level (75%)

so 75% of the time we'll get +4 to our effective level for turning.

Effective Cleric Level ( +2d6 + charisma = total HD on a single turn )
20 - Cleric Levels
04 - From above roll ( 75% of the time)
04 - Seek Eternal Rest
02 - Sacred Item ( does this stack with above spell? both are Sacred typed bonuses)
03 - Improved Turning Enhancements
01 - Improved Turning Feat ( not worth the feat imo, here for academic purposes)
06 - Aegis of Flame
02 - Seraphim
04 - Token of the Faithful
14 - Charisma
02 - Command Item?
2d6
------
64-76 total HD turned @ level 20? ( Unsure if Radiant servant considers Turning Undead as "channeling positive energy" but if it does, then that's +2 more effective cleric levels)

So, if my math is correct, at level 20, turns will yield total HD turned in high 60's low 70's and max HD for one monster turned in the high 20's.

Does this sound right?
Is my math correct?

If yes and yes, does this sound useful at all in the higher levels?

Ereshkigal

[The-Last-Wolf]

Turn Undead

/snip

So, if my math is correct, at level 20, turns will yield total HD turned in high 60's low 70's and max HD for one monster turned in the high 20's.

Does this sound right?
Is my math correct?

If yes and yes, does this sound useful at all in the higher levels?

Ereshkigal

Hi Eresh,

Some issues with your maths I'm afraid.

1. Armour of command has (unfortunatly) no effect on Turning whatsoever. It merely adds +2 to your CHA based skills. Turning is a Fear nor a skill.


2. You are confusing 2 different numbers in your calculation.

Highest HD Turned =

20 Cleric Level
+3 Enhancements
+1 Feat
+4 Seek Eternal Rest
+2 Token of the Faithful (Effective lvl)
+2 Token of the Faithful (Bonus)
+4 Max dice roll
----------------
36 HD

+6 Cleric Past Life feats x 3
----------------
42 HD

All the other gear and bonuses you listed do not stack I'm afraid.

Total HD Turned =

20 Cleric Level
+3 Enhancements
+1 Feat
+4 Seek Eternal Rest
+2 Token of the Faithful (Effective lvl)
+6 Aegis of Flame
+14 Charisma Bonus (using your number)
+2-12 Dice roll
----------------
52 - 62 HD

+6 Cleric Past Life feats x 3
----------------
58 - 68 HD

There is a Radiant Servant Prestige item set from Devils of Shav thats adds an "Exceptional bonus to effective level" which I assume would stack with these numbers, but I don't know what the bonus is.

Anyway, I hope that helps
Regards
Wolf

[Ereshkigal]

Hi Eresh,

Some issues with your maths I'm afraid.

1. Armour of command has (unfortunatly) no effect on Turning whatsoever. It merely adds +2 to your CHA based skills. Turning is a Fear nor a skill.


2. You are confusing 2 different numbers in your calculation.

Highest HD Turned =

20 Cleric Level
+3 Enhancements
+1 Feat
+4 Seek Eternal Rest
+2 Token of the Faithful (Effective lvl)
+2 Token of the Faithful (Bonus)
+4 Max dice roll
----------------
36 HD

+6 Cleric Past Life feats x 3
----------------
42 HD

All the other gear and bonuses you listed do not stack I'm afraid.

Total HD Turned =

20 Cleric Level
+3 Enhancements
+1 Feat
+4 Seek Eternal Rest
+2 Token of the Faithful (Effective lvl)
+6 Aegis of Flame
+14 Charisma Bonus (using your number)
+2-12 Dice roll
----------------
52 - 62 HD

+6 Cleric Past Life feats x 3
----------------
58 - 68 HD

There is a Radiant Servant Prestige item set from Devils of Shav thats adds an "Exceptional bonus to effective level" which I assume would stack with these numbers, but I don't know what the bonus is.

Anyway, I hope that helps
Regards
Wolf

Thanks Wolf, that's exactly what I was looking for!