TR'd Pure Rogue

[Sirea]

So I have this 13/6/1 Rog/Rgr/Bbn just sitting there collecting dust. The new Rogue capstone has me toying with the idea of TRing her into a pure Rogue. At first I thought keeping the Ranger splash wouldn't be that bad of an idea, getting two TWFing feats for free, a couple of Favored Enemies, and Ram's Might. But I'm starting to think that having the Past Life feats for all that sneak attack damage probably more than makes up for the extra damage from FE/RM, and not having to take Tempest feats has me gaining feats, so I can take the TWFing feats without being pinched by the Tempest feats on top of it.

And, as much as I enjoy Acrobat, I'm thinking about switching over to Assassin. Now that air elementals are wimps, the immunity to knockdown that Acrobat grants seems less valuable, and Assassinate sounds kind of fun. Although I'm not sure how high of an INT you need for it to be reliable; I started with a 14 (16 after +2 tome).

*IGNORE THAT I SELECTED "CHEAT DEATH" FOR MY CAPSTONE; THE PLANNER DIDN'T HAVE THE NEW ONE SO I SELECTED "CHEAT DEATH" SIMPLY AS A PLACEHOLDER*

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Shantasi Vega
Level 20 Chaotic Good Elf Female
(20 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 242
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 9
Reflex: 17
Will: 5

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    24
Dexterity            16                    20
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence         14                    17
Wisdom                9                     9
Charisma              9                    12

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               7                    29
Bluff                -1                     8
Concentration         2                     4
Diplomacy             3                    25
Disable Device        6                    27
Haggle               -1                    15
Heal                 -1                     0
Hide                  7                    37
Intimidate           -1                     2
Jump                  3                     8
Listen               -1                     2
Move Silently         7                    37
Open Lock             7                    29
Perform              n/a                    n/a
Repair                2                     4
Search                6                    29
Spot                  3                    25
Swim                  3                     8
Tumble                7                    29
Use Magic Device      3                    28

{\b {\ul Notable Equipment }} \par Minos Legens \par Tharne's Goggles \par  \par Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Rogue
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Rogue)


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 4 (Rogue)


Level 5 (Rogue)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device


Level 7 (Rogue)


Level 8 (Rogue)


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Crippling Strike


Level 11 (Rogue)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 16 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery


Level 17 (Rogue)


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Slippery Mind


Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Rogue Cheat Death
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Attack II
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing IV
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Enhancement: Rogue Hide I
Enhancement: Rogue Hide II
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently I
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I

Halfling Version:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Shantasi Vega
Level 20 Chaotic Good Halfling Female
(20 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 242
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 18
Will: 6

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             15                    23
Dexterity            16                    20
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence         14                    17
Wisdom                9                     9
Charisma             10                    13

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               7                    29
Bluff                 0                    12
Concentration         2                     4
Diplomacy             4                    25
Disable Device        6                    27
Haggle                0                    15
Heal                 -1                     0
Hide                  7                    41
Intimidate            0                     2
Jump                  2                     9
Listen               -1                     2
Move Silently         7                    39
Open Lock             7                    29
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                2                     4
Search                6                    27
Spot                  3                    23
Swim                  2                     7
Tumble                7                    29
Use Magic Device      4                    28

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Rogue
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Rogue)


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 4 (Rogue)


Level 5 (Rogue)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device


Level 7 (Rogue)


Level 8 (Rogue)


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Crippling Strike


Level 11 (Rogue)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 16 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery


Level 17 (Rogue)


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Slippery Mind


Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Cheat Death
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning II
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning III
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning IV
Enhancement: Halfling Guile I
Enhancement: Halfling Guile II
Enhancement: Halfling Guile III
Enhancement: Halfling Guile IV
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing IV
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Enhancement: Rogue Hide I
Enhancement: Rogue Hide II
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently I
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I

(Build was updated and tweaked after feedback)


Gear

Body: Dragontouched Vestments (Resistance +5, Protection +5, Insight +4)***
Eyes: Tharne's Goggles***
Helm: Air x3 CHA Skills +6 Greensteel***
Necklace: Shintao Cord***
Trinket: Bloodstone*** / HoGF*** / Litany(?)
Cloak: Earth x3 +45 HP Greensteel***
Belt: Epic Belt of Mroranon (GFL in Yellow Slot)
Ring 1: Kyosho's Ring (+2 Exc. STR)***
Gloves: Epic Spectral Gloves / Seven-Fingered Gloves
Boots: Gyroscopic***/Madstone Boots***/Boots of Anchoring***
Ring 2: INT +6 ToD Ring (+2 Exc. INT for Assassinate DCs)*** / CHA +6 Exc. CHA +2 (for UMD)***
Wrists: Tharne's Bracers (DEX +6 and Set Bonus)***

(*** marks what I already have or will have soon)

End Stats

STR 34 (16 base + 5 lvls + 3 tome + 3 exc + 7 item) (Halfling: 34 (15 Base + 5 lvls + 3 tome + 3 exc + 7 item + 1 Litany))
DEX 28 (16 base + 2 tome + 2 enh + 7 item + 1 Litany)
CON 24 (14 base + 3 tome + 6 item + 1 Litany)
INT 26 (14 base + 2 tome + 3 exc + 6 item + 1 Litany)
WIS 10 (9 base + 1 Litany)
CHA 12 (9 base + 3 tome)

(I have +3 STR, CON, and CHA tomes banked for use after TR)

HP

120 20 Rogue x d6
140 CON
010 Heroic Durability
022 Toughness (Feat)
020 Toughness (Enh)
020 Toughness (item)
010 AA Favor
045 GS
030 GFL
----
417 HP

+20 Rage
+40 2x Madstone
----
477 HP

UMD

23 Ranks
01 CHA
05 7FG
06 GS
04 GH
02 HoGF
----
41 UMD

[Maxallu]

Why did you not choose the new capstone? The old capstone is terrible.

[karl_k0ch]

Why did you not choose the new capstone? The old capstone is terrible.

*IGNORE THAT I SELECTED "CHEAT DEATH" FOR MY CAPSTONE; THE PLANNER DIDN'T HAVE THE NEW ONE SO I SELECTED "CHEAT DEATH" SIMPLY AS A PLACEHOLDER*

Because he can. Who said that <blink> </blink> was a bad idea in html?

[Draccus]

Why the heck did you pick Cheat Death?????

Everything looks good to me with a couple tweaks.

Swap Bluff for Diplo.
I don't know anyone impressed with Sneak of Shadows. There are a few other feats I think would be better there, maybe Khopesh or OTWF for AB help in Epic.

I'm not a proponent of Skill Boost. Because I'm not a trap build skills rarely fall into the slim window where Boost helps. Either I can get a trap/UMDcheck without boost or I can't get it even with boost. Your mileage may vary.

Not sure why you picked Item Defense. Consider Extra Action Boost or Elf Dexterity or something else; especially if you drop Skill Boost and free up a ton of points.

[Sirea]

Why the heck did you pick Cheat Death?????

Everything looks good to me with a couple tweaks.

Swap Bluff for Diplo.
I don't know anyone impressed with Sneak of Shadows. There are a few other feats I think would be better there, maybe Khopesh or OTWF for AB help in Epic.

I'm not a proponent of Skill Boost. Because I'm not a trap build skills rarely fall into the slim window where Boost helps. Either I can get a trap/UMDcheck without boost or I can't get it even with boost. Your mileage may vary.

Not sure why you picked Item Defense. Consider Extra Action Boost or Elf Dexterity or something else; especially if you drop Skill Boost and free up a ton of points.

I think I had an extra AP and stuck Item Defense in there to get rid of it

I think I misread the Sneak of Shadows text, it made it sound like it was a static bonus to sneak attack damage, but is it only a clickie? If so it's value goes down a little bit, and I'll heed your advice about OTWF, since I'll be using dual rapiers.

I liked Skill Boost while leveling and for a quick boost for scrolls, granted it's been a long time since I leveled up Shantasi the first time, so I'll be willing to accept that geat and pots can make up for that gap (I was still relatively new when I first rolled her so I probably didn't have the luxury of a bunch of twink gear and pots at my disposal )

I was taking Bluff to aid with single-target sneak pulling, does Diplo function the same way?

Thanks for the advice

[Draccus]

I think I had an extra AP and stuck Item Defense in there to get rid of it

I think I misread the Sneak of Shadows text, it made it sound like it was a static bonus to sneak attack damage, but is it only a clickie? If so it's value goes down a little bit, and I'll heed your advice about OTWF, since I'll be using dual rapiers.

I liked Skill Boost while leveling and for a quick boost for scrolls, granted it's been a long time since I leveled up Shantasi the first time, so I'll be willing to accept that geat and pots can make up for that gap (I was still relatively new when I first rolled her so I probably didn't have the luxury of a bunch of twink gear and pots at my disposal )

I was taking Bluff to aid with single-target sneak pulling, does Diplo function the same way?

Thanks for the advice

The text of Sneak of Shadows is misleading and many of us thought it would be far better than it is.

"You recall more about your past life as a rogue. You have +1 to all skills and three times per rest you can skulk with the skill of your past life, gaining bonuses equal to your level to your hide and move silently skills, a +1 bonus to sneak attack damage for every two character levels, and a +1 bonus to hit with sneak attacks for every four levels."

Everything after the italicized statement is a clickie. Meh.

Diplo is a great skill to have at all levels. Even with dual radII rapiers, I find myself using it all the time to avoid getting pounded at the start of a fight if I find myself first in battle. I *think* it works for stealth pulling like Bluff does but I'm not sure. I've also heard bluff-pulling works even with low bluff skill but I'll test it tonight.

Skill boost may be useful in those mid levels where you are around 30 UMD and need to use Heal Scrolls. Once you get higher than that, I don't think it's as useful. Dresek's standing UMD with a self-buffed GH is 39 so he's no-fail without switching gear. I can get up to around 46 if I switch gear so I don't need boost at all. Even with a death penalty or two, I can get a no-fail heal scroll.

[kamimitsu]

Stats look good (though I hate having negative modifiers, so I'd go 9 Wis and eat a +1 tome).

Diplo won't single pull, but it is great for 'oh fark' moments when you've gotten a bit too much aggro. I'm actually finding bluff kinda nice on my new Mechanic for single pulling (and you DO have to succeed on a roll for it to work). I wouldn't mind having both if I had it to do all over again. If I had to choose one, though, it's Diplo.

Now that you can't tumble when movement impaired, it's far less desirable. As such, there's no need to really max it out unless you don't like using featherfall. A handful of points should be sufficient for movement on the battlefield.

I'm with Draccus on Skill Boost. I'd also HIGHLY suggest taking Subtle Backstabbing up to the max... it is VERY important for your DPS. One or two extra hits with SA damage go a long way.

As for Past Life: Sneak, I'd drop it and pick up SF: UMD for easier wand/scrolling until you get full UMD and gear. Then swap it out at endgame for OTWF if you plan on doing epic.

Just my take on it. I do feel compelled to ask if you've considered a Dex-based Halfling version (drop 1 or 2 STR, and put level ups into DEX), as that is the most fun I've had in this game.

[Sirea]

It's really cool to get advice from a couple of guys I know are very knowledgeable in all things Rogue, so thanks Dresek and Shiz

I dropped the Skill Boosts and took all 4 Subtle Backstab enhancements as well as another DEX enhancement and an Extra Action Boost, and dropped Bluff for Diplo. Though I may keep Skill Boosts for lower levels and respec enhancements later on.I've also decided to take Shiz's advice and take Skill Focus: UMD while I level up and use my free feat exchange to switch it out for OTWF at higher levels.

I took max Tumble because, well, when you have so many skill points per level, what else is there really worthwhile to put it into? Besides, I like being able to do flippy-flips when I'm bored

I have a couple more questions though:

1. What's a good INT to have for the Assassin abilities? Will 14 base be enough?
2. Does alignment really matter with this build? I was thinking Chaotic Neutral, Chaotic because most of my toon are Lawful or Neutral (so flavor, basically), and Neutral for possible Litany of the Dead purposes.

Anyways, here's the updated build:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Shantasi Vega
Level 20 Chaotic Neutral Elf Female
(20 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 242
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 9
Reflex: 17
Will: 5

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    23
Dexterity            16                    20
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence         14                    16
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             10                    12

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               7                    29
Bluff                 0                     8
Concentration         2                     4
Diplomacy             4                    25
Disable Device        6                    27
Haggle                0                    15
Heal                 -1                     0
Hide                  7                    37
Intimidate            0                     2
Jump                  3                     7
Listen               -1                     2
Move Silently         7                    37
Open Lock             7                    29
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                2                     4
Search                6                    29
Spot                  3                    25
Swim                  3                     7
Tumble                7                    29
Use Magic Device      4                    28

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Rogue
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Rogue)


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 4 (Rogue)


Level 5 (Rogue)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device


Level 7 (Rogue)


Level 8 (Rogue)


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Crippling Strike


Level 11 (Rogue)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 16 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery


Level 17 (Rogue)


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Slippery Mind


Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Rogue Cheat Death
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Attack II
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing IV
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Enhancement: Rogue Hide I
Enhancement: Rogue Hide II
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently I
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I

[LeLoric]

Now that Sneak of shadows is fixed I think people need to take another look at it.

Three one minute long clickies of +5 to hit and +10 damage with sneak attack is a huge dps increase. Sure it's only 3 minutes total but not many major fights last more than that. It's also great in epic content for really high to hit mobs like Djinni's in von 6 or Big top end fight.

The extra +20 to your sneak and hide can come in really handy in some situations also. I can sneak around in epic content with both skills above 80 and really no chance of being detected.

All that for only 2 less umd over takinf SF Umd, which rarely is a problem for a full rogueto hit the benchmarks, means I would take the past life feat over SF: Umd anyday.

OTWF is nice for epic content but youll get more of a hit bonus for those really troublesome mobs by clicking your Past life feat.

I've also moved to rapier/shortsword for several of my fighting combos because of to hits as well as some nice epic shortswords/daggers. Von 6 djinns get the Rad II rapier/Garos malice combo, Big top boss gets the Lit II rapier/flint combo. Deadheart gets the Rad II rapier/Ancient vulkorim dagger combo.

[kamimitsu]

It's really cool to get advice from a couple of guys I know are very knowledgeable in all things Rogue, so thanks Dresek and Shiz

I dropped the Skill Boosts and took all 4 Subtle Backstab enhancements as well as another DEX enhancement and an Extra Action Boost, and dropped Bluff for Diplo. Though I may keep Skill Boosts for lower levels and respec enhancements later on.I've also decided to take Dresek's advice and take Skill Focus: UMD while I level up and use my free feat exchange to switch it out for OTWF at higher levels.

I took max Tumble because, well, when you have so many skill points per level, what else is there really worthwhile to put it into? Besides, I like being able to do flippy-flips when I'm bored

I have a couple more questions though:

1. What's a good INT to have for the Assassin abilities? Will 14 base be enough?
2. Does alignment really matter with this build? I was thinking Chaotic Neutral, Chaotic because most of my toon are Lawful or Neutral (so flavor, basically), and Neutral for possible Litany of the Dead purposes.

14 will be fine. You'll probably end up with a 24-26 INT by endgame which will give you enough DC to make it useful for casters and the like. You'll probably use it far less after 18 (auto-vorpal) especially if you have RadianceII. It's still useful situationally, but I wouldn't build around it.

True Neutral. You have UMD and that allows you to wield weapons of any alignment, and without penalty.

Boosts while leveling is pretty normal (that's what I do, as well): both for trapsmithing and UMD work.

I mentioned tumble not being necessary to max as you might consider going for BOTH Bluff and Diplo with the extra points. It's certainly not a big issue though.

I can't speak to LeLoric's opinion on Sneak of Shadows being more useful now. I don't have a TR rogue and I don't really do that much epic, so my thoughts are more 'theoretical'. I'm a big proponent of getting 'all the time' bonuses (like OTWF) over 'clickable' bonuses, mostly because I'm forgetful about that kind of thing.

p.s. It was my suggestion to go SF:UMD then OTWF , but Draccus is so darn sexy I could see how you might not be able to get him out of your mind.

[Sirea]

Now that Sneak of shadows is fixed I think people need to take another look at it.

Three one minute long clickies of +5 to hit and +10 damage with sneak attack is a huge dps increase. Sure it's only 3 minutes total but not many major fights last more than that. It's also great in epic content for really high to hit mobs like Djinni's in von 6 or Big top end fight.

The extra +20 to your sneak and hide can come in really handy in some situations also. I can sneak around in epic content with both skills above 80 and really no chance of being detected.

How was Sneak of Shadows fixed? How was it performing before, and how has it been altered?

Definitely gives me some choices to make when the time comes, thanks for the info

p.s. It was my suggestion to go SF:UMD then OTWF , but Draccus is so darn sexy I could see how you might not be able to get him out of your mind.

LOL, so it was, sorry about that; he is a drow after all

And thanks again for your advice!

[Draccus]

Like Shiz said, 14 int is plenty for assassinate. I started with 14, ate a +3 tome, and crafted a +9 Int ring from one of the bazillion that drop in ToD for an int of 26. That ring is in a swap slot where I normally wear a +8 Cha ring for no-fail UMDs. With the Deadly Shadow capstone, that puts my int at 28 for an assassinate DC of 39 (10 + 20 rogue levels + 9 Int bonus). The only place I see a lot of assassinate saves is Shavarath. In places like Inspired Quarter or other non-Shav, high level quests, nothing will save.

Lelo, I agree Sneak of Shadows is a nice boost but I'm a feat short due to Weapon Finesse or I would have taken it. The only thing I could swap for it would be PA but I think that that would be a horrible idea.

I shouldn't have given any advice on Bluff because I've never used or had the need to use the bluff-pull method. I stand by my advice that Diplo is a must-have skill but having never used Bluff, I can't speak to its value. Any time I see someone put bluff in a build, I immediately think they are considering using it for attempting to sneak attack mid-fight. In that case, it's a really bad idea!

For alignment, a new option is to take neutral good so you can use PG weapon and then swap it to true neutral once your UMD is over 20.

Oh, and Shiz and Lelo are knowledgeable rogues. I'm like the Supermodel version of a rogue -- dumb but sexy

[Winter_storm]

Still learning the ropes on rogue but it might help if Skill Focus: UMD feat was used instead of power attack (not a big fan of PA) at lvl 15 and put Khopesh feat at lvl 6 and change lvl 12 with improved crit: slashing. Its just a suggestion, but if your going as a strength rogue, its good DPS. as in INT and CON if some way you can get a +4 tome (near impossible) for it, would be to your benefit. CON for higher HP and INT for traps, assassinate, etc.

[trespasser]

I would advise against skill focus: UMD

23 ranks
1 skill mastery
1 sneak of shadows
3 charisma item
3 cartouche
1 base charisma bonus
6 shroud item
2 head of good fortune(or +1 voice of the master)
----
39/40, with self cast GH from scrolls it hits 43/44 which means you can skip swapping to the cartouche/charisma if you have a better item in that slot and still get no fail heal scrolls(or just use a tier 2 shroud item). The only thing relatively hard to get in that list is the green steel, but if you go air/air/air you get the +6 skills, a decent haste clickie and air guard for a reasonable amount of larges.

I find Sneak of shadows to be decent - 3x1 min of +10 damage and +5 to hit on sneak attacks does wonders on epic velah and even in shroud part 4/5 or ToD.
Do not drop power attack, it is a really great feat. Considering you can self buff with Greater Heroism and Divine Power scrolls (if you don't want to rely on clickies) for extra +5 BaB you will have little troubles hitting things.
For alignment, I think true neutral works best for umd users.
Also I did not see anyone commenting on your race choice - why elf? Halflings get better enhancement lines, Humans get better stat distribution, extra feat and human versatility.

[Sirea]

Still learning the ropes on rogue but it might help if Skill Focus: UMD feat was used instead of power attack (not a big fan of PA) at lvl 15 and put Khopesh feat at lvl 6 and change lvl 12 with improved crit: slashing. Its just a suggestion, but if your going as a strength rogue, its good DPS. as in INT and CON if some way you can get a +4 tome (near impossible) for it, would be to your benefit. CON for higher HP and INT for traps, assassinate, etc.

I consider Power Attack a staple in any melee build, it's a substantial increase in DPS and something that, in my opinion, any respectable melee build shouldn't be without.

Khopesh is out of the question; I already have rapiers made on this character and I'm not willing to recraft a Radiance II among other things. Also, she's elven and benefits from the Aerenal Elf Melee Damage/Attack enhancements while wielding rapiers. I'm quite tired of khopeshes, to be honest, having 2 characters already that use them.

+4 tomes are still super rare and only drop out of 2 or 3 raids in the game (ToD, Epic VoNs, and maybe Epic DQ, can't remember), so while it would be nice to get one, I'm certainly not going to make them essential to my build 14 is a pretty widely accepted starting CON for a melee character, especially for a race that gets a -2 racial penalty to CON.

[Sirea]

I would advise against skill focus: UMD

SKill Focus: UMD is simply there for leveling up; I'm going to be switching it out for something else at higher levels. Whether it's OTWF or Sneak of Shadows remains to be seen.

Also I did not see anyone commenting on your race choice - why elf? Halflings get better enhancement lines, Humans get better stat distribution, extra feat and human versatility.

Elves have the rapier synergy with the attack/damage enhancement line.

And because, you may think it's kind of stupid, she's always been an elf. It'd be weird for her to be anything else I have so many freaking humans on my account I'm sick of them

[Bodic]

why not add in the 7fingers to that count also. Just because he is TR doesnt mean he has all of that sitting in his bank. The SF:UMD is a good thing you can change it out later once you have the other things to boost your UMD.

Haggle is better than Tumble I mean I take a few levels of jump/tumble so I can go without FF a majority of the time.

I would drop haste IV for 2 of the dex enhancements. yes

[trespasser]

SKill Focus: UMD is simply there for leveling up; I'm going to be switching it out for something else at higher levels. Whether it's OTWF or Sneak of Shadows remains to be seen.



Elves have the rapier synergy with the attack/damage enhancement line.

And because, you may think it's kind of stupid, she's always been an elf. It'd be weird for her to be anything else I have so many freaking humans on my account I'm sick of them

I understand completely, mine is human, I just could not force myself to TR into a halfling even though I know it might have been a little better dps. They just look weird.

Edit:

why not add in the 7fingers to that count also. Just because he is TR doesnt mean he has all of that sitting in his bank. The SF:UMD is a good thing you can change it out later once you have the other things to boost your UMD.

I'm sorry, are you comparing one of the harder to get items in game with Voice of the master (a 100% drop in a low level chain), The golden cartouche (bound to account, very common end reward for the same chain, that people usually run at least 3 times during a TR) and a simple +6 charisma item? That list includes NO hard to get items, NO temporary buffs and NO skill boosts. Most people that go for a TR(including myself) are rolling in small and medium ingredients. And if you read the OP - he already has a RadII rapier, which means he definitely has the ingredients for, at least, a +3 charisma skills shroud item.
But since all of the other feats are set in stone, the free feat exchange can be used for getting rid of SF:UMD around lvl 17 or so.

[Ookami007]

I understand completely, mine is human, I just could not force myself to TR into a halfling even though I know it might have been a little better dps. They just look weird.

It's their small... hands. They're creepy!

[redraider]

This is a great thread going here and Shiz and Dres, are well, THE Rogues on Ghallanda. Hell, Dres even got his own show there...

I am about to TR my 20 Dorf Kensai pure Ftr into a Pure Rog. Just need two more shrouds for my 40th and a clensing essence (and a 41st to actually use it. **** you Turbine!)

Sirea - are you planning to re-use greensteel items from your previous life? I have a pair of Min2 Daxes I plan to re-use which will burn a feat, but they are too nice not to keep. I also have a triple air claok for haste and knock down and have just finished a Rad II rapier. Still waffling between dwarf and WF for my second life.

Shiz and Dres - I saw the 14 int comments. I have been debating between the following on Dorf:

str 16 16 16
dex 15 15 15
con 16 18 16
int 16 14 14
wis 8 8 8
cha 8 6 10

Thoughts?