DPS Build?

[angel14995]

Hey there DDO --

I've been looking into builds recently, and have been working on understanding some of the easier builds and their concepts. I was doing a little research of my own on weapons, specifically one handed weapons. Did you know, without Improved Critical, a Khopesh is actually worse than a Dwarven Axe and a Bastard Sword up until there is a +7 Damage modifier, at which point the Khopesh starts to win? But if you are a Dwarf with no Improved Critical and the +2 to Dwarven Axe damage, you need a crazy +34 Damage Mod for Khopesh to break even? Crazy, huh? (+17 and Improved Critical on a Dwarf make Khopesh better though.)

And that brings me to my question: to maximize melee DPS, is it assumed you would go for Two Weapon Fighting all the way down, then Improved Critical:Slash then based on race Khopesh or Dwarven Axe? And if so, would you rather a Dwarf take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh because a with an item that give Strength +6 and Exceptional Strength +2, a +5 Khopesh, and a "natural" Strength of 26 (18 + 5 levels + 3 Tome) would have 1d8+17 damage per hit, excluding tacked on suffixes/prefixes like "Maiming" and "Pure Good" and stuff like that?

If you were to build a build that were to maximize melee DPS on the idea that they should have the highest even Strength possible, and then maximize Constitution while trying to keep Dexterity to a manageable point (17 for Improved/Greater Two Weapon Fighting? More?)? Would it be a better idea to go as a Ranger to get those feats for free, and not have to worry about Dex, and then focus on Tempest and ignore the Ranger Capstone because it's not applicable, so possibly splash Fighter? Or go Fighter and get Specialization in Slashing for +6 Damage and then get the Capstone for +10% Speed (I think this would be better)? What?

I'm more interested in the math behind the game, rather than trying to build something like this. Just wondering!

Edit: Whoops! In my math I accidentally made a Dwarven Axe with the Dwarven Damage Enhancements have a maximum of 13 damage, where it should only be 12. With that in mind, a Khopesh only needs a damage mod of +14 to beat out a Dwarven Axe, so a "natural" strength of 18 is required instead of the 26 I mentioned. Also, I'm not asking if there is only a Dwarf build, I'm looking at the bigger picture.

[theb]

Wow you're doing great analysis for someone new. I think that means a lot coming from me, just read some of my previous posts.

The Dwarf can almost always find something more useful than the marginal gain from khopesh to spend the feat on, and in the game as it is actually played somewhat often there are autocrit situations in which every hit is a critical. The Dwarven Axe does more damage than a khopesh in these since both are x3 and the Axe gets more base damage, though picks do more (in realistic circumstances) with x4. Only maybe on a pure rogue (who would not get dwarven axe proficiency) could I see putting Khopeshes on a Dwarf.

[angel14995]

Wow you're doing great analysis for someone new. I think that means a lot coming from me, just read some of my previous posts.

Why thank you, that really helps my self esteem.

The Dwarf can almost always find something more useful than the marginal gain from khopesh to spend the feat on, and in the game as it is actually played somewhat often there are autocrit situations in which every hit is a critical.

I was expecting that, since my calculated Dwarf DPS of a Khopesh with a +17 +14 damage mod vs. Dwarven Axe damage buffs is less than 1% in Khopesh's favor (.39% actually).

The Dwarven Axe does more damage than a khopesh in these since both are x3 and the Axe gets more base damage, though picks do more (in realistic circumstances) with x4. Only maybe on a pure rogue (who would not get dwarven axe proficiency) could I see putting Khopeshes on a Dwarf.

How are Picks (Heavy I take it) going to deal more damage in reality? While the x4 on criticals is amazing, they would need Keen and Improved Critical:Piercing to even stand up to a Bastard Sword, no?

EDIT: Ignore what's in blue, I needed to take it out of the math because of my OP corrections.

[BlackSteel]

just a few more numbers for you to play with if you want:

most characters can easily reach a sustained str in the 40s, with any class with a str boosting effect (rangers with Rams, monks with fire stance) able to get 50-52 with end game gear (you can toss on very short duration effects for another +12-15 to that, but typically not worth it)

fighters and barbarians can reach 60 without a problem, and TR'd barbarians with the right gear get up to 72 w/o a problem (and can stack on the same 12-15 as well, this isnt counting guild buffs or alch pots)



improved crit and keen do not stack, you only need one or the other

heavy picks are extremely useful for when a monster is in autocrit status. a common scenario as you progress in levels. dealing 5 or so less base damage is a worthy trade off in this scenario if it means that all your attacks get multiplied by 4 instead of 3.

[FluffyCalico]

Evasion runs on reflex save.

Ranger evasion + no dex= failed evasion rolls.

STR rangers are very good but you still want some dex IE don't start an evasion toon with 8 dex unless its a wizard with insightful reflexes.

[angel14995]

just a few more numbers for you to play with if you want:

most characters can easily reach a sustained str in the 40s, with any class with a str boosting effect (rangers with Rams, monks with fire stance) able to get 50-52 with end game gear (you can toss on very short duration effects for another +12-15 to that, but typically not worth it)

How would this 40 be achieved? 18 base + 5 levels + 3 tome = 26. An item with Strength +6 and Exceptional Strength +2 still leaves you at 34. Ram's Strength = 38, but I still seem to be missing ~12-14 points. Where would they come from?

improved crit and keen do not stack, you only need one or the other

Wasn't there something else that stacked with Improved Critical? Gave a +1 to Critical after Improved was applied?

heavy picks are extremely useful for when a monster is in autocrit status. a common scenario as you progress in levels. dealing 5 or so less base damage is a worthy trade off in this scenario if it means that all your attacks get multiplied by 4 instead of 3.

That does seem like a good thing, but what are those effects? Knockdown? Hold Monster? Are they rare things, or should they be expected quite often? And would they be seen more during the early game than late game?

Evasion runs on reflex save.

Ranger evasion + no dex= failed evasion rolls.

STR rangers are very good but you still want some dex IE don't start an evasion toon with 8 dex unless its a wizard with insightful reflexes.

I'm not planning on designing a build quite yet, but I will keep this in mind. From what I've seen, if you are going to roll a melee character, regardless of build, you really can't ignore STR, DEX, and CON, regardless of class and everything. If anything, I would try to go something like a 18/16/12/10/8/10 on a Drow or something. I really don't know yet, since I haven't been focusing on designing the build yet, mostly because I would like to get as much information as I could first.

And after all of the conversations thus far, would it be a better idea to go pure Fighter and require 17 DEX, or 12/8 Fighter or something?

[Kriogen]

1. Must be alive.
If you are dead, you have 0 (zero) DPS.

2. As much STR and speed as possible.
Don't forget attack speed boosts.

3. Don't use 'club' as a weapon.
Doesn't have to be khopesh, just not club.

4. Buffs that last longer then a single battle.
'Activating' buffs costs time. Time is a big part of that DPS thingie.

[angel14995]

3. Don't use 'club' as a weapon.
Doesn't have to be khopesh, just not club.

Can you be a little clearer? I'm probably not going to go the club route anyways, but this is the first time anyone's mentioned weapons other than bladed weapons in terms of builds at all for me.

[ekniff]

[quote]Wasn't there something else that stacked with Improved Critical? Gave a +1 to Critical after Improved was applied?/[quote]

I think you're looking for Kensai III:

Kensei <specific weapon> Mastery III

Prerequisites: Level 18 Fighter, Fighter Kensei III, Fighter [specific weapon] Specialization II, Kensei <specific weapon> Mastery II, Superior Weapon Focus: <appropriate weapon type>
Cost: 1 Action Point
Benefit: You gain +1 critical threat range with your signature weapon.

Barb PrE grants additional critical multiplier, while Paladin smites and assorted stuffs gives plus to both range AND multiplier.

[Wraith_Sarevok]

There are +7 strength items and Exceptional Bonus +1 stacks with it's +2 version. Fighters get an additional +3 strength enhancements they can take, +8 temporary from Kensai II, and Barbarians gain MASSIVE strength bonuses that far surpass any other class in the game by a good league. There are also several items, clickies, and consumables that add alot of additional strength, although most of it is very temporary.

Mass Hold Monster, Earthgrab, Flesh To Stone, Stonehold, and Stunning Blow effects will disable the enemy from a few seconds to a couple of minutes. During this time, any regular strike against them is automatically treated as a critical hit. Glancing Blows will not be treated as critical hits.

If you want to deal any sort of real melee damage by the end of the game, your only viable options are either Two-Weapon Fighting or Two-Handed Fighting. Wielding a one-handed weapon with a shield is considered to be poor damage in high-level content and suicidal in epic.

And yes, melee DPS is still the absolute king of damage in this game. Ranged and casters will always be legions behind. There are those very few exceptional burst builds that can come close to equaling melee DPS, but they will never quite be able to achieve it.

[Kriogen]

Can you be a little clearer? I'm probably not going to go the club route anyways, but this is the first time anyone's mentioned weapons other than bladed weapons in terms of builds at all for me.

Khopesh is better then any other 1-handed weapon. True. But the difference is around 10% vs Scimitar. Vs longsword its between 12-15%.

Yeah, its 10% vs regular martial weapon. It's not like 'double' or something.

Rapier, pierce, is the same as scimitar when it comes to raw damage output.

Anyway, my remark was, that 'pesh is good, but "only" by 10%. As what 10% is, its more or less the difference between Holy and Holy of Pure Good. That "of Pure Good" is around 10% in most cases. So one simple, common weapon add-on.

[grodon9999]

My dorf 12/6/2 "Monster" build is going d-axe for a few reasons:

1. I have literally a zillion great d-axes in the bank.
2. He's being built to beat on raid-bosses. Against 50% or greater fort D-axe in the hands of a dorf is a better weapon than a Khopesh.
3. Dorfs holding axes look cool.
4. I already got a Khopesh guy.

[angel14995]

Barb PrE grants additional critical multiplier, while Paladin smites and assorted stuffs gives plus to both range AND multiplier.

But wouldn't a Paladin therefore have problems? To be effective, don't you need to spread your Attributes out? An 18/18/X/X/X/X Paladin sounds like it would be a pain to handle correctly, especially with the lack of HP? Would a low Wis/Int/Cha Paladin even be viable?

There are +7 strength items and Exceptional Bonus +1 stacks with it's +2 version. Fighters get an additional +3 strength enhancements they can take, +8 temporary from Kensai II, and Barbarians gain MASSIVE strength bonuses that far surpass any other class in the game by a good league.

So now I am seeing 18 Base + 5 Level + 4 Tome = 26. +10 From items and +3 From fighter = 40. +8 Temp from Kensai II and +4 from Ram's Might/Bull Strength Potion/Wand = 52 Strength. That's a +21 modifier. If you went Human, you could go an additional +1(2?) Strength Enhancement for 53 Strength, and you then may be able to drop that 4 Tome to a 3. Am I missing anything else with this?

Khopesh is better then any other 1-handed weapon. True. But the difference is around 10% vs Scimitar. Vs longsword its between 12-15%.

Yeah, its 10% vs regular martial weapon. It's not like 'double' or something.

Yes, I know this much. But a Khopesh scales much more quickly in terms of damage than any other weapon thanks to the higher critical with x3. Assuming the pure 40 + 12 Strength character that I talked a little about above, with no other modifiers in damage except for Improved Critical, a Khopesh will deal:
*4.39% over a Dwarven Axe with Dwarven enhancements
*12.08% over Scimitar/Heavy Pick
*12.26% more damage than a Bastard Sword
*16.67% on a Longsword

That's just using a weapon bought from the vendor that had nothing, except maybe Masterwork, on it. Assuming you put a +5 On the weapon, we get new stats:
*6.21% over a Dwarven Axe with Dwarven enhancements
*11.34% over Scimitar/Scimitar
*12.96% more damage than a Bastard Sword
*16.67% on a Longsword (Battleaxe, Longsword, and Warhammer scale at a similar ratio to the Khopesh).

Rapier, pierce, is the same as scimitar when it comes to raw damage output.

Same weapon, different damage types. Exactly.

Anyway, my remark was, that 'pesh is good, but "only" by 10%. As what 10% is, its more or less the difference between Holy and Holy of Pure Good. That "of Pure Good" is around 10% in most cases. So one simple, common weapon add-on.

At +26 damage, the damage increase from Holy to Holy of Pure Good on a Khopesh is 9.33% increase, whereas when there is +0 to damage, there is a whopping 30.43% increase. Basically, the more powerful the weapon and the character, the less the additional damage points matter significantly.

[sigtrent]

And yes, melee DPS is still the absolute king of damage in this game*. Ranged and casters will always be legions behind. There are those very few exceptional burst builds that can come close to equaling melee DPS, but they will never quite be able to achieve it.

* In high level and elite/epic content on single creatures.

Casters and wall of fire/blade barrier can deal greater DPS against large groups of monsters doing 200+ on every hit, hitting up to 10 or more creatures at a time. It adds up really fast and melee characters need to gear up long and hard to achieve the pinical DPS values were talking about when they get dominance. At lower levels many of them are roaming around doing 30pts a hit if they are lucky.

Against rad bosses and the like, poor casters are kind of useless for damage. Sure they can bust a grand in damage but they can't keep it up for long and the rate of attack pales compared to melee.

[jwdaniels]

So now I am seeing 18 Base + 5 Level + 4 Tome = 26. +10 From items and +3 From fighter = 40. +8 Temp from Kensai II and +4 from Ram's Might/Bull Strength Potion/Wand = 52 Strength. That's a +21 modifier. If you went Human, you could go an additional +1(2?) Strength Enhancement for 53 Strength, and you then may be able to drop that 4 Tome to a 3. Am I missing anything else with this?

Enhancement bonuses from Bull's Strength and from items don't stack.

[angel14995]

Enhancement bonuses from Bull's Strength and from items don't stack.

So then I'm only seeing 48/49 Strength? Where is the 50-52 mark that Blacksteel said? And then how would you get 72 on a Barbarian?

[sigtrent]

So then I'm only seeing 48/49 Strength? Where is the 50-52 mark that Blacksteel said? And then how would you get 72 on a Barbarian?

There are a lot of exotic bonuses in the game. There is the scourge choker which procs +8 strength. There are alchemical potions that give alchemical strength bonuses (up to +3). There are the Yugoloth potions. There are the titans grip bonuses from cookies and the gauntlets from mindsunder. There is the profane strength from the lord of blades faith enhancement. There are epic items with +7 enhancement bonuses. There is the stacking rage bonus from madstone boots.

The list goes on...

How sustainable all that is depends on how much stuff you collect.

Most characters I know are running around in the 30-40 zone unless they are a barbarian. A few creep into the low 40s, especially when they are using some of the above items and effects.

[angel14995]

So with all of this in mind, I think I'm, going to start trying to make a DPS build. Thus far:
* Khopesh are #1, followed closely by Dwarven Axe, especially on a Dwarf. Rapier, Heavy Pick, and Scimitar come in at number 3, Bastard Sword at 6, Kukri and Light Pick at 7
* Two Weapon Fighting is the way to go
* Power Attack is going to be necessary for late game damage increase
* 17 Dex is going to be needed, unless it's going to be a Ranger build

Anything else?

Casters and wall of fire/blade barrier can deal greater DPS against large groups of monsters doing 200+ on every hit, hitting up to 10 or more creatures at a time. It adds up really fast and melee characters need to gear up long and hard to achieve the pinical DPS values were talking about when they get dominance. At lower levels many of them are roaming around doing 30pts a hit if they are lucky.

Against rad bosses and the like, poor casters are kind of useless for damage. Sure they can bust a grand in damage but they can't keep it up for long and the rate of attack pales compared to melee.

So Casters are good for mob DPS, Melee DPS are for Bosses?

Edit: Here is a preliminary build:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(20 Fighter) 
Hit Points: 302
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 10
Will: 9

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             15                    24
Dexterity            17                    17
Constitution         13                    14
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom               10                    10
Charisma              8                     8

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               5                    14
Bluff                -1                     2
Concentration         1                     5
Diplomacy            -1                     2
Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -1                    -1
Heal                  0                     0
Hide                  3                     3
Intimidate           -1                     2
Jump                  4                    29
Listen                0                     0
Move Silently         3                     3
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                    -1
Search               -1                    -1
Spot                  0                     0
Swim                  2                     7
Tumble                4                     4
Use Magic Device     n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons


Level 5 (Fighter)


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Power Critical


Level 7 (Fighter)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Iron Will


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack


Level 11 (Fighter)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Fighter)


Level 14 (Fighter)


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 16 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 17 (Fighter)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Sunder
Feat: (Selected) Luck of Heroes


Level 19 (Fighter)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost IV
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Fighter Weapon Alacrity
Enhancement: Kensei Khopesh Mastery I
Enhancement: Kensei Khopesh Mastery II
Enhancement: Kensei Khopesh Mastery III
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy III
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy IV
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei III
Enhancement: Fighter Khopesh Specialization I
Enhancement: Fighter Khopesh Specialization II
Enhancement: Fighter Flanking Mastery I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I

I know I will have problems, so please give as much feedback as your can. One of the flaws I'm seeing is that the character only will get 302 Health, something that makes me think he'll be a little squishy...

[Kriogen]

Edit: Here is a preliminary build:...

No need to start with DEX 17. Use tomes. You can just start with DEX 16 and use +1 dex tome. Or with DEX 15 and use +2 dex tome. Saves you lots of build points for more STR/CON.

Even tho you are going for more damage I think maxing Intimidate would be usefull. Switch weapon set, put on shield, and you'd still be a usefull backup tank.

You don't really Jump that high, use those points for Intimidate?

Don't forget that at lvl 7 you can use +2 INT tome and so you get extra +1 skill/level. Same 'trick' is used for DEX.

[angel14995]

No need to start with DEX 17. Use tomes. You can just start with DEX 16 and use +1 dex tome. Or with DEX 15 and use +2 dex tome. Saves you lots of build points for more STR/CON.

Now this is something that has been bothering me for a while. How do you get +1/+2 Tomes, and are they trade-able? If you could enlighten me on this subject, I would probably go this route.

Even tho you are going for more damage I think maxing Intimidate would be usefull. Switch weapon set, put on shield, and you'd still be a usefull backup tank.

Am I too squishy for that role? Or being a Shield Intimitank for backup work well for this build? If I were to go Intimidate, I would probably perfectly max put 1 point in Tumble to start, max Balance, and then max Intimidate.

Don't forget that at lvl 7 you can use +2 INT tome and so you get extra +1 skill/level. Same 'trick' is used for DEX.

Again, enlighten me on the subject of tomes, and i'll not only add an INT and DEX tome, but also a STR, CON, and WIS as well!