DPS Build?

[angel14995]

Hey there DDO --

I've been looking into builds recently, and have been working on understanding some of the easier builds and their concepts. I was doing a little research of my own on weapons, specifically one handed weapons. Did you know, without Improved Critical, a Khopesh is actually worse than a Dwarven Axe and a Bastard Sword up until there is a +7 Damage modifier, at which point the Khopesh starts to win? But if you are a Dwarf with no Improved Critical and the +2 to Dwarven Axe damage, you need a crazy +34 Damage Mod for Khopesh to break even? Crazy, huh? (+17 and Improved Critical on a Dwarf make Khopesh better though.)

And that brings me to my question: to maximize melee DPS, is it assumed you would go for Two Weapon Fighting all the way down, then Improved Critical:Slash then based on race Khopesh or Dwarven Axe? And if so, would you rather a Dwarf take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh because a with an item that give Strength +6 and Exceptional Strength +2, a +5 Khopesh, and a "natural" Strength of 26 (18 + 5 levels + 3 Tome) would have 1d8+17 damage per hit, excluding tacked on suffixes/prefixes like "Maiming" and "Pure Good" and stuff like that?

If you were to build a build that were to maximize melee DPS on the idea that they should have the highest even Strength possible, and then maximize Constitution while trying to keep Dexterity to a manageable point (17 for Improved/Greater Two Weapon Fighting? More?)? Would it be a better idea to go as a Ranger to get those feats for free, and not have to worry about Dex, and then focus on Tempest and ignore the Ranger Capstone because it's not applicable, so possibly splash Fighter? Or go Fighter and get Specialization in Slashing for +6 Damage and then get the Capstone for +10% Speed (I think this would be better)? What?

I'm more interested in the math behind the game, rather than trying to build something like this. Just wondering!

Edit: Whoops! In my math I accidentally made a Dwarven Axe with the Dwarven Damage Enhancements have a maximum of 13 damage, where it should only be 12. With that in mind, a Khopesh only needs a damage mod of +14 to beat out a Dwarven Axe, so a "natural" strength of 18 is required instead of the 26 I mentioned. Also, I'm not asking if there is only a Dwarf build, I'm looking at the bigger picture.

[theb]

Wow you're doing great analysis for someone new. I think that means a lot coming from me, just read some of my previous posts.

The Dwarf can almost always find something more useful than the marginal gain from khopesh to spend the feat on, and in the game as it is actually played somewhat often there are autocrit situations in which every hit is a critical. The Dwarven Axe does more damage than a khopesh in these since both are x3 and the Axe gets more base damage, though picks do more (in realistic circumstances) with x4. Only maybe on a pure rogue (who would not get dwarven axe proficiency) could I see putting Khopeshes on a Dwarf.

[angel14995]

Wow you're doing great analysis for someone new. I think that means a lot coming from me, just read some of my previous posts.

Why thank you, that really helps my self esteem.

The Dwarf can almost always find something more useful than the marginal gain from khopesh to spend the feat on, and in the game as it is actually played somewhat often there are autocrit situations in which every hit is a critical.

I was expecting that, since my calculated Dwarf DPS of a Khopesh with a +17 +14 damage mod vs. Dwarven Axe damage buffs is less than 1% in Khopesh's favor (.39% actually).

The Dwarven Axe does more damage than a khopesh in these since both are x3 and the Axe gets more base damage, though picks do more (in realistic circumstances) with x4. Only maybe on a pure rogue (who would not get dwarven axe proficiency) could I see putting Khopeshes on a Dwarf.

How are Picks (Heavy I take it) going to deal more damage in reality? While the x4 on criticals is amazing, they would need Keen and Improved Critical:Piercing to even stand up to a Bastard Sword, no?

EDIT: Ignore what's in blue, I needed to take it out of the math because of my OP corrections.

[BlackSteel]

just a few more numbers for you to play with if you want:

most characters can easily reach a sustained str in the 40s, with any class with a str boosting effect (rangers with Rams, monks with fire stance) able to get 50-52 with end game gear (you can toss on very short duration effects for another +12-15 to that, but typically not worth it)

fighters and barbarians can reach 60 without a problem, and TR'd barbarians with the right gear get up to 72 w/o a problem (and can stack on the same 12-15 as well, this isnt counting guild buffs or alch pots)



improved crit and keen do not stack, you only need one or the other

heavy picks are extremely useful for when a monster is in autocrit status. a common scenario as you progress in levels. dealing 5 or so less base damage is a worthy trade off in this scenario if it means that all your attacks get multiplied by 4 instead of 3.

[FluffyCalico]

Evasion runs on reflex save.

Ranger evasion + no dex= failed evasion rolls.

STR rangers are very good but you still want some dex IE don't start an evasion toon with 8 dex unless its a wizard with insightful reflexes.

[angel14995]

just a few more numbers for you to play with if you want:

most characters can easily reach a sustained str in the 40s, with any class with a str boosting effect (rangers with Rams, monks with fire stance) able to get 50-52 with end game gear (you can toss on very short duration effects for another +12-15 to that, but typically not worth it)

How would this 40 be achieved? 18 base + 5 levels + 3 tome = 26. An item with Strength +6 and Exceptional Strength +2 still leaves you at 34. Ram's Strength = 38, but I still seem to be missing ~12-14 points. Where would they come from?

improved crit and keen do not stack, you only need one or the other

Wasn't there something else that stacked with Improved Critical? Gave a +1 to Critical after Improved was applied?

heavy picks are extremely useful for when a monster is in autocrit status. a common scenario as you progress in levels. dealing 5 or so less base damage is a worthy trade off in this scenario if it means that all your attacks get multiplied by 4 instead of 3.

That does seem like a good thing, but what are those effects? Knockdown? Hold Monster? Are they rare things, or should they be expected quite often? And would they be seen more during the early game than late game?

Evasion runs on reflex save.

Ranger evasion + no dex= failed evasion rolls.

STR rangers are very good but you still want some dex IE don't start an evasion toon with 8 dex unless its a wizard with insightful reflexes.

I'm not planning on designing a build quite yet, but I will keep this in mind. From what I've seen, if you are going to roll a melee character, regardless of build, you really can't ignore STR, DEX, and CON, regardless of class and everything. If anything, I would try to go something like a 18/16/12/10/8/10 on a Drow or something. I really don't know yet, since I haven't been focusing on designing the build yet, mostly because I would like to get as much information as I could first.

And after all of the conversations thus far, would it be a better idea to go pure Fighter and require 17 DEX, or 12/8 Fighter or something?

[Kriogen]

1. Must be alive.
If you are dead, you have 0 (zero) DPS.

2. As much STR and speed as possible.
Don't forget attack speed boosts.

3. Don't use 'club' as a weapon.
Doesn't have to be khopesh, just not club.

4. Buffs that last longer then a single battle.
'Activating' buffs costs time. Time is a big part of that DPS thingie.

[ekniff]

[quote]Wasn't there something else that stacked with Improved Critical? Gave a +1 to Critical after Improved was applied?/[quote]

I think you're looking for Kensai III:

Kensei <specific weapon> Mastery III

Prerequisites: Level 18 Fighter, Fighter Kensei III, Fighter [specific weapon] Specialization II, Kensei <specific weapon> Mastery II, Superior Weapon Focus: <appropriate weapon type>
Cost: 1 Action Point
Benefit: You gain +1 critical threat range with your signature weapon.

Barb PrE grants additional critical multiplier, while Paladin smites and assorted stuffs gives plus to both range AND multiplier.

[Wraith_Sarevok]

There are +7 strength items and Exceptional Bonus +1 stacks with it's +2 version. Fighters get an additional +3 strength enhancements they can take, +8 temporary from Kensai II, and Barbarians gain MASSIVE strength bonuses that far surpass any other class in the game by a good league. There are also several items, clickies, and consumables that add alot of additional strength, although most of it is very temporary.

Mass Hold Monster, Earthgrab, Flesh To Stone, Stonehold, and Stunning Blow effects will disable the enemy from a few seconds to a couple of minutes. During this time, any regular strike against them is automatically treated as a critical hit. Glancing Blows will not be treated as critical hits.

If you want to deal any sort of real melee damage by the end of the game, your only viable options are either Two-Weapon Fighting or Two-Handed Fighting. Wielding a one-handed weapon with a shield is considered to be poor damage in high-level content and suicidal in epic.

And yes, melee DPS is still the absolute king of damage in this game. Ranged and casters will always be legions behind. There are those very few exceptional burst builds that can come close to equaling melee DPS, but they will never quite be able to achieve it.