Crit per-tick, and Saves.

[Scraap]

...
I've added "consider changing the behavior of persistent spells to check for spell crit on each tick" as a universal change under consideration. We agree that the behavior is preferable from a gameplay experience (for both beneficial spells like the Aura and offensive spells like Wall of Fire), but I can't put a timeline on a change like that.

While this would change the paradigm from "cast WoF 5-10 times for an assured set of crits" to "target 5-10 mobs with the aoe to get at least 1 per tick", and ensure that an area effect is used for areas, not as the boss-nuker, I'd point out that the reason more than anything else that it's used a such is due to immunities, resistances, and above all else saves.

As such, might I suggest when you do get around to doing this, you alter the "x manipulation" "lineage of x" and "lineage of deadly x" enhancements to also add +1 to the relevant difficulty check for a given elemental spell (reflex, fort, will). That would max out at a +9 for a given specialist, and at least mitigate to a degree the saves part of the equation for alternative strategies, since it seems the focus for the last few patches has been all about alternative modes of play.

Alternatively, if you wish to heighten the utility of symbol spells in addition to the straight up damagers, would you please add a straight-up general enhancement line for DC improvements, similar to the improved spell penetration line, perhaps based on requiring the relevant 2 feats and taking it further from there.

Basically, the notion you folks have been kicking around is not a bad one in and of itself, but taken in the context of the full level range 1-20 with general utility falling off of most spells at the end of that range due to everything and it's dog "saving vs muchas", as my old Dm would say, additional steps seem warranted when that step is taken to balance out the hit.

Thoughts, alternative suggestions for balancing things out?

/snags fireshield

[Cylinwolf]

If end-game HP values stay the same (which they're pretty much going to have to), auto-crit scenarios are going to remain the way to go as they are currently in epic.

You can already get your DC to very successful levels in epic with the recent saves nerf. Allowing a much higher DC on things like Symbols (symbol of stunning being the big one) would require an ultimate rebalancing of saves for future content (or the content will be ridiculously easy) that would obsolete all spells other than Symbol of Stunning.

As far as that part of your post goes, no, allowing extra DC specifically to symbols through enhancement lines is actually the opposite of what you want for balance.

[Goldeneye]

Do not like. Do not like.
Getting that crit firewall is one of those things I love about my sorc.
It's a tactic by now. Removing it is just dumbing down the game more.

[Angelus_dead]

While this would change the paradigm from "cast WoF 5-10 times for an assured set of crits" to "target 5-10 mobs with the aoe to get at least 1 per tick"

Whether or not that would happen depends on implementation details that have not been revealed to us.

This is an area where minor details of the programming can have an important effect on the gameplay, so it is crucial for the developers to tread carefully.

As such, might I suggest when you do get around to doing this, you alter the "x manipulation" "lineage of x" and "lineage of deadly x" enhancements to also add +1 to the relevant difficulty check for a given elemental spell (reflex, fort, will).

That kind of buff is getting pretty far afield from what was changing. If the devs want enhancements to raise spell DC then they can add that for other motivations. (Note that the Fire Savant and similar enhancements will probably include a DC increase for corresponding spells)

[Scraap]

Whether or not that would happen depends on implementation details that have not been revealed to us.

This is an area where minor details of the programming can have an important effect on the gameplay, so it is crucial for the developers to tread carefully.

In this instance, I was going off the latest aoe, death aura, which operates on crit-per-tick-per-target as the example, but you're right, they could cook up a new system if they chose.

That kind of buff is getting pretty far afield from what was changing. If the devs want enhancements to raise spell DC then they can add that for other motivations. (Note that the Fire Savant and similar enhancements will probably include a DC increase for corresponding spells)

Yes and no. As an indirect boost to other spells when they lower the best possible outcome of a single spell given at a single level given to two classes (possibly 3 if they ever get around to the druid bit), the proposals not about changing things so that firewall remains the be all-end-all crutch used to justify still bothering to play arcanes by both players and devs throughout the majority of content, but an attempt to look at things holistically, and to treat the classes as classes with their full range of abilities, and at least partly address the underlying issue: most other spells both at level, and over level save for half, none ect, requiring higher DCs to retain comparable effectiveness, spell penetration or no.

Perhaps with that in mind you've an alternative notion?

Do not like. Do not like.
Getting that crit firewall is one of those things I love about my sorc.
It's a tactic by now. Removing it is just dumbing down the game more.

Not really in love with the notion either myself, but they've made the statement, and while I haven't been around for years, I have noted that it's extremely rare for their PR folks to say anything even offhanded that doesn't eventually turn into action of some sort, so it's enjoy it while it's still useful and hope they forget the notion, or see about cooking up some notions to soften the blow when they put our money where their mouth is.

[Qzipoun]

Crit per tick is a bad idea because it simplifies the game too much. Right now, the gameplay mechanics change depending on whether a spell is a crit or not, you could be fighting and the caster/clr will shout "crit xxxxx over here" and suddenly the tactic changes and the party utilizes the crit. Sometimes you'll get several crits in a short time and the party will get excited, sometimes you'll get no crits at all and a fight or two may take longer or be harder than usual.

On a crit-pet-tick system, every spell is essentially the same, you lose the real-time dynamic of the game.

You also lose tactic choices, right now you can take the risk, and mana hit, to cast a bunch of spells until you get a crit. A lot of times this is the only way to deal significant damage

[Angelus_dead]

Crit per tick is a bad idea because it simplifies the game too much. Right now, the gameplay mechanics change depending on whether a spell is a crit or not, you could be fighting and the caster/clr will shout "crit xxxxx over here" and suddenly the tactic changes and the party utilizes the crit.

You'd have to do more to justify crit fishing being a good mechanic. Not everything that adds complexity is good... and the current dominance of Blade Barrier and Wall of Fire compared to other kinds of damaging spells is pretty clearly in the Not Good category.

[jwdaniels]

Do not like. Do not like.
Getting that crit firewall is one of those things I love about my sorc.
It's a tactic by now. Removing it is just dumbing down the game more.

Really? Removing the "crit firewall over here, run the mobs through it" and "I'll spam that spot with multiple firewalls so we can crit it" tactics would dumb the game down?

Weakening/eliminating firewall and requiring arcane casters to learn how to use other spells effectively is the opposite of dumbing the game down.

[Qzipoun]

You'd have to do more to justify crit fishing being a good mechanic. Not everything that adds complexity is good... and the current dominance of Blade Barrier and Wall of Fire compared to other kinds of damaging spells is pretty clearly in the Not Good category.

I completely agree, new spells need to be added to the game and old weak ones beefed up to enter the Good Category. Most damage spells are completely gimped even in crits.

Right now I still cast ck and acid fog for example, hoping for a crit that will do SOME damage. If crit is per tick there's no point to bother