Pint-Sized Brick - A Halfling Paladin Tank(requesting build/equip advice)

[Tydeth]

I'm rather new to paladins, and from what I can tell they can make good demon and/or undead slayers or good healing melee tanks. I decided to see about making a tank pally that can heal himself and his party when needed, and here's the result in the char planner:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Tomeli Redfist
Level 20 Lawful Good Halfling Male
(20 Paladin) 
Hit Points: 382
Spell Points: 264 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 23
Reflex: 14
Will: 14

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             14                    15
Dexterity            12                    12
Constitution         16                    18
Intelligence         10                    10
Wisdom               12                    12
Charisma             12                    15

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               1                     1
Bluff                 1                     2
Concentration         3                     7
Diplomacy             1                     2
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                1                     2
Heal                  1                     3
Hide                  1                     5
Intimidate            3                    13
Jump                  2                     4
Listen                1                     3
Move Silently         1                     3
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                     0
Search                0                     0
Spot                  1                     1
Swim                  2                     2
Tumble                2                     2
Use Magic Device      2                    13

Level 1 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Healing


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Diehard


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: CON
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 9 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Lesser Dragonmark of Healing


Level 10 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 11 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Dragonmark of Healing


Level 13 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 14 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: CON
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 17 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 19 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Paladin Weapons of Good
Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark Use I
Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark Use II
Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark Use III
Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark Use IV
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys III
Enhancement: Paladin Redemption I
Enhancement: Paladin Redemption II
Enhancement: Paladin Redemption III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion II
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion III
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion IV
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness IV

The base idea is to use the high CON, Dragonmarks, US, LOH, and Spells(including pots/wands/scrolls) to stay alive and use intimidate and attack damage to keep the monster wailing on me rather than on the squishy party members. Taking the Redemption enhancements would allow me to try to save the party if the quest goes south and the mobs kill the cleric(s).

I wanted to add the +hate enhancement, but competition for AP was steep so in the end I went without it. If there's a way I can add room for it without sacrificing the essentials for the concept, please let me know what I can axe for the aggro pull power.

I didn't account for any items so no equipment mods are in the planned build above. I want to know your thoughts on this build so I can improve it. I would also appreciate any advice regarding equipping this build.

[Inferno346]

Diehard is generally considered a waste of a feat.
Rank IV of toughness enhancements is generally considered too expensive.

I don't see any DPS feats... consider power attack.
It is difficult to get intim high enough without splashing rogue or fighter.
Halfling dragonmarks are very feat intensive and paladins are considered a feat-starved class.
Getting to a viable AC will also be an interesting challenge. Can't really help you there.

I would suggest dropping dragonmarks for a paladin. If you are dead set on dragonmarks, consider 18 fighter/ 2 rogue with UMD for heal scrolls/wands.

Also: most good "tanks" can switch to some sort of DPS mode because intimitanking is not always necessary... consider being able to switch to THF or TWF.

Do not put lvl-ups into constitution. STR, and at most one in CHA if you need it to reach the next tier of divine might.

I would also suggest dumping wisdom.

Hope this helps.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Many Paladin tanks splash two levels of Fighter in for full ranks in Intimidate and 3 bonus feats (Tower Shield + 2 Fighter bonus ones), and you may want to consider that. This also nets you Haste Boost 1.

Others splash in 2 Rogue for Evasion and full UMD (and also gets Haste Boost 1).

Without either of those (and especially as a Halfling, as you have a -4 size penalty) your Intimidate will never reach meaningful levels.


I'm going to second what Inferno said; level-ups in STR (DPS = good!), get Power Attack, Improved Critical, ect. Getting the Dragonmarks costs you too many feats, and you don't actually need them at all.

[Tydeth]

Diehard is generally considered a waste of a feat.
Rank IV of toughness enhancements is generally considered too expensive.

I probably grabbed that as I got spoiled from my ranger having it for free; it had proven itself useful at times when I get incap'd but the monsters didn't bother to check and make sure I'm dead. To be fair, the monsters do seem to do exactly that at mid-to-higher levels so I'll axe Diehard for this guy.

I have definitely felt the expense of pally toughness 4 when I added it in the planner, so I agree with the consensus. I only grabbed it because more HP = good.

I don't see any DPS feats... consider power attack.
It is difficult to get intim high enough without splashing rogue or fighter.

Many Paladin tanks splash two levels of Fighter in for full ranks in Intimidate and 3 bonus feats (Tower Shield + 2 Fighter bonus ones), and you may want to consider that. This also nets you Haste Boost 1.

Others splash in 2 Rogue for Evasion and full UMD (and also gets Haste Boost 1).

Without either of those (and especially as a Halfling, as you have a -4 size penalty) your Intimidate will never reach meaningful levels.


I'm going to second what Inferno said; level-ups in STR (DPS = good!), get Power Attack, Improved Critical, ect.

Does fighter level 1 or 2 get a "Fighter Toughness I" enhancement? If so, I can dump paladin toughness 4 for it and use the saved up AP on more stuff.

Fighter 2/Pally 18 is looking tempting. Though splashing rogue would allow me to consider locks/traps skills as a bonus, not to mention the UMD for better wand/scroll usage, the Evasion feat wouldn't really work in the full plate that I imagine paladin tanks to wear. I could use the fighter bonus feats for Power Attack and Improved Crit: Slash, and the slot opened by removing Diehard could be used for THF feat or something. The full ranks in intimidate would afford me better success in drawing monsters off my party to me so I can wail on them with a greatsword or whatever.

Is the paladin capstone simply not as good as it sounds, or is it just not good for the build I am intending to make?

Getting to a viable AC will also be an interesting challenge. Can't really help you there.

I'm thinking DR and +Stat/+HP/immunity/h-fort items would be easier to get and more helpful. I'm just not sure which ones exactly to aim for besides that one +HP & heavy fort hat that has something to do with Necropolis. If I can get enough items that allow me to tank things and have high AC for avoiding damage viably, that'll be a bonus. For the most part, however, I figured my luck for rng'd items won't improve much with this guy so he'll use high HP, DR, and self-healing to perform his tanking duty.

Halfling dragonmarks are very feat intensive and paladins are considered a feat-starved class.

[...]

I would suggest dropping dragonmarks for a paladin. If you are dead set on dragonmarks, consider 18 fighter/ 2 rogue with UMD for heal scrolls/wands.

Getting the Dragonmarks costs you too many feats, and you don't actually need them at all.

The idea of taking Dragonmarks was part of why I grabbed Halfling for this pally, to allow more healing options before needing to dip into my limited LoH charges, so I can try to save them for the Rez power. Do paladins get Rez and Heal as normal spells?

How many CLWs/CSWs/Heals would I get from enhancement-maxed dragonmarks per day? This would be more influencial on my decision to keep/drop these. If the charges are not enough for dungeons, any idea what I should replace them with?

Also: most good "tanks" can switch to some sort of DPS mode because intimitanking is not always necessary... consider being able to switch to THF or TWF.

Way ahead of you there. THF = main fighting style on this guy. Intimidate draws them in, greatsword/etc. smacks them in the face repeatedly to KEEP them on me via hate. I didn't bother with tower shield proficiency in the original plan because T-Shields I figured would be for emergency turtling purposes only.

Do not put lvl-ups into constitution. STR, and at most one in CHA if you need it to reach the next tier of divine might.

I've lurked the forums quite a bit before I posted, and I kept seeing posts along the lines of "MORE CON," "Con is not a dump stat," and "Not enough HP" in response to some people's build ideas. And now when I post a build featuring high con and taking more of it, I get "Less Con" as a response? Lol.

In all seriousness, Halfling's STR nerf really can put the pain in raising STR to meaningful amounts for a melee character, so I may drop the initial STR by 2 and use the freed points in cha or whatever while applying all leveling points in STR to have more net STR than he would have with the initial plan.

I would also suggest dumping wisdom.

He's a healing tank; the plan is he casts heals so the cleric doesn't have to. I don't see how dumping the stat that lets me be not so much a burden on clerics can be a good idea. Perhaps there is a reason you guys are familiar with that I am not due to being new to pallies? If so, please shed some light into this matter as I wish to make a useful self-sufficient tank that can benefit whatever party he runs with.

Hope this helps.

I do thank you both for your advice. Hopefully with further answers I can post a revised build that will produce a better Pint-sized Self-sufficient Brick to group with.

[unbongwah]

First off, I'll say I think your build idea is flawed: IMHO you won't get enough out of the Healing Marks to make them worth the feat investment on a feat-starved build, especially if you honestly want to tank. Also, tanks do not usually try to be healers and vice versa, though I've seen some interesting attempts at Intimitanking battle clerics. Now that my bias is out of the way...

Does fighter level 1 or 2 get a "Fighter Toughness I" enhancement?

Lvl 1 - however, you can only take Toughness enhs from a single class, so you won't be able to take it from both ftr & pally.

Though splashing rogue would allow me to consider locks/traps skills as a bonus, not to mention the UMD for better wand/scroll usage, the Evasion feat wouldn't really work in the full plate that I imagine paladin tanks to wear.

You won't have enough skill points for trap skills (beyond maybe 10-11 ranks in Open Lock); but full ranks in UMD are definitely useful and Evasion can be useful if you spec yourself for light armor. Or do rogue 1 / ftr 1: rogue for UMD, ftr for extra feat and tower shield proficiency.

Is the paladin capstone simply not as good as it sounds, or is it just not good for the build I am intending to make?

Pally capstone is great for DPS, but a pally tank really needs Intimidate as a class skill to be any good at it; that means a rogue or ftr splash. And once you give up pally 20, you might as well give up pally 19, unless you really want Redemption or Divine Sacrifice III.

I'm just not sure which ones exactly to aim for besides that one +HP & heavy fort hat that has something to do with Necropolis.

I presume you're talking about Minos Legens, which you get by farming for tapestries in the Orchard of the Macabre (lvl 14 wilderness area N of Necropolis).

Do paladins get Rez and Heal as normal spells?

No.

He's a healing tank; the plan is he casts heals so the cleric doesn't have to. I don't see how dumping the stat that lets me be not so much a burden on clerics can be a good idea.

Most paladin builds dump-stat WIS so they can spend those points elsewhere and rely on a WIS item (or item + tome) to hit WIS 14: WIS 8 + 6 item and you're set.

[Tydeth]

Thanks for answering my questions. It sucks that I can only get one class version of toughness, but meh.

I appreciate that link about the Minos Legens(yes, that was the hat I was thinking of); now I know how and when I can go get that headgear.



Ok, I have taken all responses into consideration and built what I think is a much-improved tank.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Pint-Sized Brick
Level 20 Lawful Good Halfling Male
(1 Fighter \ 18 Paladin \ 1 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 348
Spell Points: 205 
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 24
Reflex: 17
Will: 18

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             13                    18
Dexterity            12                    12
Constitution         16                    16
Intelligence         14                    14
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             14                    16

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               5                     6
Bluff                 2                     3
Concentration         3                     6
Diplomacy             2                     3
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                6                     7
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  2                     6
Intimidate            6                    29
Jump                  5                    11
Listen                3                     5
Move Silently         3                     5
Open Lock             5                     5
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                2                     2
Search                6                     6
Spot                  3                     3
Swim                  1                     4
Tumble                2                     2
Use Magic Device      6                    26

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Listen (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 9 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Bullheaded


Level 10 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 11 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 14 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 17 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality


Level 19 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Fighter Armored Agility I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Paladin Item Defense I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys III
Enhancement: Paladin Redemption I
Enhancement: Paladin Redemption II
Enhancement: Paladin: Rally
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Balance I
Enhancement: Fighter Intimidate I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion II
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion III
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Light I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Light II

First thing to note, no Dragonmarks. I dropped them for damage feats and thus had AP to spare for more enhancements as well as feats to bolster damage ability. I took the power attack and improved critical slashing, as well as weapon focus since I won't be drawing hate aggro if I'm not hitting often enough.

Bullheaded was primarily for the +2 to intimidate, though the +1 will save boost is welcome as well. Speaking of will save, dumping Wis for more Cha = take force of personality so I don't get hit with ridiculous mind-affecting spells to be turned useless.

Since I needed 14 int to raise intimidate and UMD to full ranks(they were still cross-class despite my rogue1/fighter1 splashing), I took Combat Expertise as I passed the int requirement.

Extend Spell is because paladins have buffs, and I cannot be certain that I'll always be wearing a +wis item to recast, so +10 sp to double their duration and be more useful is a fair tradeoff.


Any thoughts on this new version of Pint-Sized Brick?

[unbongwah]

If you've dropped the halfling Marks entirely, then I think human or dwarf is a better choice for pally tank.

You didn't take any THF feats. That'll cause a significant drop in your glancing blows DPS, which is important for hate-tanking. I would take the THF feats instead of WF Slash, Bullheaded, and FoP.

I like taking Improved Crit ASAP, especially on a paladin; I would bump it up to lvl 9.

EDIT: forgot to mention earlier that although paladins don't get Raise Dead as a spell, they can take the Redemption enhs to let them use a Turn Undead charge to raise dead. Also, elf paladins who go Undying Court can get a free raise / resurrection ability.

[Tydeth]

I am sure a human would be somewhat more optimal as a paladin in terms of numbers, but I want to see how good of a pally self-sufficient intimidate/hate tank a Halfling could be.

I do not get enough str from leveling for those THF feats till later in my guy's life. I know I can swap for THF at 12 and ITWF at 18(it's not until 16 that I have enough str for this, unless I get very lucky and find a str tome before 15), but unless I choose to delay taking fighter from level 2 to level 19/20 or can get a tome, no GTHF for me. Do I even really need all 3 THFs to be useful or will two suffice?

I checked and can get the improved crit slash @ 9 so I'll do that. If I keep fighter @ 2 then I can swap out weapon focus for an earlier power attack for fighter bonus.

Yeah, my first build had all 3 tiers of Redemption. This one has 2 tiers.

[unbongwah]

I am sure a human would be somewhat more optimal as a paladin in terms of numbers, but I want to see how good of a pally self-sufficient intimidate/hate tank a Halfling could be.

I suspect the answer will be "not very," but if you know that going in, good luck to you.

If you dump-stat DEX, you can bump base STR to 14; so you could take THF after lvl 4 - maybe delay ftr 1 until then and take it as your bonus feat. Then you could take ITHF at lvl 12 (or sooner if you take a STR tome) and GTHF after that. I'm reasonably certain you can boost your DEX high enough with items to hit whatever your MDB in heavy armor ends up being.

[Tydeth]

I suspect the answer will be "not very," but if you know that going in, good luck to you.

Yeah, I'm aware halflings won't be uber, but I like a bit of a challenge at times and even then he may prove good enough for most things. Thanks for the luck and the help.

If you dump-stat DEX, you can bump base STR to 14; so you could take THF after lvl 4 - maybe delay ftr 1 until then and take it as your bonus feat. Then you could take ITHF at lvl 12 (or sooner if you take a STR tome) and GTHF after that. I'm reasonably certain you can boost your DEX high enough with items to hit whatever your MDB in heavy armor ends up being.

Yep, I've rolled the pally using the veteran start. I took rogue @ 1, pal @ 2 & 3, and fighter @ 4. THF was my fighter bonus and my level 3 picked feat was power attack. This and the dump dex for str advice were the main changes to my build thus far.



Hopefully with the advice taken this pint-sized brick will prove to be an adequately formidable tank.

Thanks to everyone who posted for your guidance.