Pally/Monk build...your thoughts?

[Iyan]

I have not played DDO in a very long time and a friend has talked me into coming back. I have a lvl 20 ranger (shroud and end game geared) I would like to TR into a melee build and was thinking of going paladin with a splash of monk for evasion and feats. Below is a build in progress, I am hoping to get some feedback from current players so I dont screw it up.

After reading the posts so far I should consider creating a warforged instead of human.

I am new to using this planner and creating builds hence the reason I am on the forum asking for advice. Apologies if I dont do something "the correct way" thanks for any feedback as im sure I need the advice with all the game changes.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(18 Paladin \ 2 Monk) 
Hit Points: 328
Spell Points: 178 
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 23
Reflex: 19
Will: 17

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    22
Dexterity            15                    17
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence         12                    12
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             14                    16

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               6                    20
Bluff                 2                     3
Concentration         2                    15
Diplomacy             2                     3
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                2                     4
Heal                 -1                     1
Hide                  2                     3
Intimidate            2                     3
Jump                  7                    16
Listen               -1                    -1
Move Silently         2                     3
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                1                     1
Search                3                     6
Spot                  3                     6
Swim                  3                     6
Tumble                6                     8
Use Magic Device      4                    14

Level 1 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I


Level 3 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Iron Will
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning I
Enhancement: Paladin Improved Turning I


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Hunter of the Dead I


Level 9 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty


Level 10 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II


Level 11 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion II


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Redemption I


Level 13 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Strength I


Level 14 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III


Level 15 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II


Level 17 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good IV


Level 18 (Paladin)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III


Level 19 (Paladin)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Hunter of the Dead II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning II


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III

I will work on creating a warforged build and post it after completion.

[theb]

I have never read a worthwhile build that interspersed enhancements with the leveling order, except for one designed for newbs as a step-by-step guide. The reason is that resetting enhancements is a trivial expense, levels 1-19 are easy, and 95%+ of a character's life is spent at cap, the only level worth optimizing for. I'm fairly new to the game and I understand this without being able to design great builds. If someone doesn't understand this, their build is almost certainly suboptimal in many ways.

Interspersed enhancements are hard to read. Fix that.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Interspersed enhancements are hard to read. Fix that.

This.

Put them all at level 20, as that makes it easier to read the build.

[Angelus_dead]

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(18 Paladin \ 2 Monk)

1. Pal18/Monk2 is popular and effective.
2. With just two Monk levels, having high Concentration will mean little.
3. Probably should have mentioned it was a TR build.
4. Iron Will is a poor use of a feat on a character that'll have such good saves anyhow. Power Attack instead.
5. Hunter of the Dead is a decent enhancement for killing beholders at mid-levels, but at high level should be switched for Knight of the Chalice.
6. Quicken Spell is not helpful for Paladins. Extend Spell is nice for them, but they probably can't afford the slot.
7. Anyone with Pal18 should try to have more than Exalted Smite II and Divine Might I.
8. Divine Sacrifice is good too.
9. Nobody should ever get Khopesh proficiency unless planning on Improved Crit Slashy.

[Therigar]

Regarding the enhancements. I disagree that you should put them at L20. The previous comments are off base. It is actually useful to an experienced player to know which enhancement you are taking at what level. It provides much greater insight into how well you know the game and how much effort you have put into character design.

I run a warforged monk with paladin and wizard levels. The mix of paladin and monk work well together in that form. There is no reason to suspect that running a paladin with two levels of monk will not work.

Obvious benefits are the addition of 2 feats in a feat starved class, the increases to AC if unarmored and evasion if lightly armored/unarmored. How well you can make all of this works depends on how willing you are to dump other stats.

Unfortunately, paladin relies on some stats that do not merge well with what is needed on the monk side. This means that you have to make some very difficult choices in order to get the most benefit.

IMO you may be spreading build points and stats too thin. I might consider becoming a weapon finesse build and using build points spent in STR (along with stat increases thru leveling) in CHA and WIS. Use your second monk feat for weapon finesse rather than iron will. This actually gains you more AC via the monk WIS bonus and higher will saves without cutting back too greatly on melee effectiveness. Obviously you also drop the exotic weapon feat.

With the exotic weapon feat gone you can instead select drow, elf or halfling as the race (you no longer need the human bonus feat to give you enough feats). This has the added bonus of double DEX enhancements (and size bonus if halfling) to further push AC.

If you choose to remain with human then you are getting nothing special out of the monk bonus unless you are wearing no or light armor. You are better off taking fighter for the splash class and keeping more hit points and full BAB. The reason to splash monk is for the evasion. Yes, feats and WIS bonus to AC -- but the main reason is the evasion.

You don't want to be sitting on low AC in exchange for that evasion. So you need to boost the AC. Mithral breastplate or WIS bonus -- that's your choice. And, you could have trouble doing that with a STR build.

Drow and elf have the benefit of rapier enhancements that will make rapiers nearly as effective as the khopesh. Elf also gives you longbow enhancements that compliment your past life as a ranger.

IMO this is a more effective build (conceptually) because it works more strongly to build on the strengths of both paladin and ranger.

[Therigar]

9. Nobody should ever get Khopesh proficiency unless planning on Improved Crit Slashy.

Unless you are a TR that has greensteel khopeshes sitting in the bank waiting for you to reach the appropriate level.

[Angelus_dead]

Regarding the enhancements. I disagree that you should put them at L20. The previous comments are off base. It is actually useful to an experienced player to know which enhancement you are taking at what level. It provides much greater insight into how well you know the game and how much effort you have put into character design.

The AP enhancement choices that are optimal at levels 3, 8, and 14 will probably not still be good at level 20.

A person posting a build is asking for advice on the character, not trying to convince people that he has game knowledge or has devoted hours of work to the planning. The level 20 enhancements are the ones that the character is eventually stuck with the longest, so they're the ones most important to get feedback on.

[theb]

Regarding the enhancements. I disagree that you should put them at L20. The previous comments are off base. It is actually useful to an experienced player to know which enhancement you are taking at what level. It provides much greater insight into how well you know the game and how much effort you have put into character design.

Being able to see Iron Will instead of Power Attack would have provided the same information in shorter time.

IMO you may be spreading build points and stats too thin. I might consider becoming a weapon finesse build and using build points spent in STR (along with stat increases thru leveling) in CHA and WIS.

Swing and a miss. Much like a paladin with weapon finesse (!) and low dexterity (?!?).

This actually gains you more AC via the monk WIS bonus and higher will saves without cutting back too greatly on melee effectiveness.

Higher will saves? The only strength of this character? I agree that your proposed change wouldn't make a noticeable difference in its melee power, but only because there is not much melee effectiveness that could be cut back on this build to begin with.

IMO this is a more effective build (conceptually) because it works more strongly to build on the strengths of both paladin and ranger.

I'm sure with its conceptual strength it would win a lot of moral victories.

[Therigar]

While theb has been part of these forums for an extended length of time and is justifiably proud of his extensive knowledge, he focuses on trivial issues rather than grasping the general concepts.

Angelus_dead makes the point about enhancement listings but also focuses on the trivial. There was a time on these forums when people apologized for putting their enhancements all at the end -- as being lazy.

It is useful to see the enhancements by level because it tells us if you are looking forward to level cap and end game play or if you are focused only on momentary advantages -- what Angelus_dead calls "optimal" enhancement choices at the intermediate levels. I can grasp Angelus_dead's critique knowing that he has a long reputation for seeking the optimal build at all times.

With theb I can only speculate. He seems intent on jumping on various points without taking the full context into consideration. For example, he makes comments on weapon finesse and DEX without taking into account other parts of the post suggesting that racial choice be altered to a more DEX focused race. Nevertheless, what I am suggesting is only conceptual without providing concrete numbers. I don't think that you, the OP, need that. Neither does anyone who has capped a character and is going to TR.

I reiterate that paladin is often a stat intensive build and there is reason to evaluate why you want the monk class. If it is for evasion and 2 feats then you need to consider where your AC is coming from. You may decide that you want a glass cannon and AC is unimportant. You may operate in a guild or with a regular gaming group where this will have minimal impact.

Because I don't know your circumstance I am simply observing that AC may be a challange if you are looking to benefit from evasion with the monk levels. And, I think it is reasonable to point out that fighter gives 2 feat choices and that you retain full BAB.

I also think it is reasonable to point out that if you plan to use evasion you will be in light or no armor. Under that restriction your best choics are either mithral breastplate or no armor (going the Icy Raiments w multiple dodge items route). With that in mind, it seems wise to question your choice to focus on STR rather than WIS.

I also think it is reasonable to suggest that instead of STR you may want CHA. Keeping in mind that a paladin's smite evil is connected to CHA you may prefer to start CHA @ 15, 16 or 17.

Lastly, 15 DEX with a drow, elf or halfling build is equivalent to a 17 DEX on a human because of the enhancements. When you do not put stat increases into STR you now have decisions on where to place them in a weapon finesse build.

Once more, I don't know your gaming situation. The reasonable assumption is that you would put them into DEX. If you select elf for your race you will gain to hit and to damage bonuses with rapiers. Using rapiers with weapon finesse you will reach a higher to hit number than you will if you go with STR.

If you recognize that an elf with greensteel rapiers does 1d8 + 7 damage vs the khopesh's 1d10 + 5. The bottom end damage is higher and the top end is equal. And 15-20/x2 is equal to 17-20/x3 when it is time to calculate criticals (crit range assumes keen or equivalent).

What this means is that you have equivalent damage less the STR damage factors.

That should be evaluated more closely. Starting with 16 STR rather than 8 STR you will do +4 damage. Agreeing that avoiding level increases in STR widens this gap to +6 (and potentially to +7) means that there is reason to focus on STR rather than DEX. This is the basis for DPS builds being STR focused.

Elf can gain back 2 points of that. The remainder is lost.

The question is, do your smites make up for this? With higher CHA you increase the effectiveness of your smites. And, smites produce much more damage if calculated into the combat.

The issue with smites is their limited numbers -- and whether the combat lasts long enough for that to matter.

All of these things are elements that I presume OP is able to evaluate and understand are part of something presented as "conceptual."

[AylinIsAwesome]

While theb has been part of these forums for an extended length of time and is justifiably proud of his extensive knowledge, he focuses on trivial issues rather than grasping the general concepts.

Angelus_dead makes the point about enhancement listings but also focuses on the trivial. There was a time on these forums when people apologized for putting their enhancements all at the end -- as being lazy.

Having all the enhancments at the end makes it much easier to real.

Readability is not a "trivial" issue.

[Calebro]

I may not agree with some of what A_D says sometimes.... heck, I disagree with him most of the time. But he's spot on on this one, and these aren't trivial issues.

Concentration is useless on a Pally.
Your feat choices need work.
Assuming a TWF Pally is going for a DPS role, KotC is a much better choice than HotD.
Your feat choices still need work.
Exalted Smite should be maxed (for max effectiveness).
Divine Might needs to be tiered as high as you can get it, which in this case is DMII.
Your feat choices still need work.

As a TR, if you went Drow, you could have:
Str 16 +2 tome +5 lvlups +6 item = 29
Dex 15 +2 tome +6 item = 23 (or 24 with a racial)
Con 12 +2 tome +6 item = 20
Int 10 +2 tome +6 item = 18
Wis 11 +2 tome +1 Monk +6 item = 20 (which can cast all spells without the need for an item)
Cha 16 +2 tome +2 Pally +6 item = 26 (DM3)

or

As a TR, if you went Drow, you could have:
Str 17 +2 tome +5 lvlups +6 item = 30
Dex 15 +2 tome +6 item = 23 (or 24 with a racial)
Con 12 +2 tome +6 item = 20
Int 10 +2 tome +6 item = 18
Wis 8 +2 tome +6 item = 16
Cha 16 +2 tome +2 Pally +6 item = 26 (DM3)

I normally wouldn't suggest Drow on many builds at all, but a TWF Pally is one of the ones that I definitely support the choice of Drow. It makes it REALLY easy to get TWF Dex requirements and get your Cha a little higher, which frees up points to spend elsewhere on either more Wis or Str.

[weewoo0]

i'm currently running an 18/2 human paladin/monk with these stats
TR
16 str + 5 levelups +1 human adaptability + 3 exceptional +6 item + 2 tome (+3 eventually) = 33 (34 w/ +3 tome)
15 dex + 6 item + 2 tome (eventually 3 for that reflex save) = 23 (24 w/ save sickness)
14 con +2 tome + 6 item (eventually +1 exceptional and +3 tome) = 22 (eventually 24)
8 int +2 tome = 10
8 wis +2 tome +6 item + 1 exceptional (eventually +3 tome as well) = 17 wis (eventually 18)
16 cha +2 tome + 6 item + 3 exceptional + 2 enhancements (eventually +3 tome) = 29 cha (eventually 30)

i'll have exalted 4 DM 3 KotC 3 smite in the amount of 11 or 12 LoH in the amt of 3 and full resistance of good

i like the usable evasion so far and it seems it's saves will work out well

i'm including higher end gear here because well he's said he's well equipped with end game gear so this is slightly reasonable no?

[Iyan]

So I reworked a similar build but changed it from Human to warforged. I will loose out on some greensteel weapons but I can make new ones. The enhancements can be reworked as needed duiring the leveling phase early on I would take the undead line then eventually swap it for the demon line. I still have alot of reading to catch up on all the game changes but here is my reworked build for your critisism

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Warforged Male
(18 Paladin \ 2 Monk) 
Hit Points: 338
Spell Points: 178 
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 27
Reflex: 18
Will: 18

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    18
Dexterity             8                     8
Constitution         16                    16
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             16                    22

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               3                     5
Bluff                 3                     6
Concentration         3                     6
Diplomacy             3                     6
Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
Haggle                3                     7
Heal                 -1                     0
Hide                 -1                    -1
Intimidate            3                     6
Jump                  7                     8
Listen               -1                    -1
Move Silently        -1                    -1
Open Lock            n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                    -1
Search               -1                    -1
Spot                 -1                    -1
Swim                  3                     4
Tumble               n/a                   n/a
Use Magic Device      5                    20

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device


Level 4 (Paladin)


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Paladin)


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 10 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Follower of the Lord of Blades
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Hunter of the Dead I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning I
Enhancement: Paladin Improved Turning I
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I
Enhancement: Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude I


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 16 (Paladin)


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Item Defense I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good IV
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV
Enhancement: Paladin Redemption I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III

Again thanks for any and all replies (even the nasty ones can be helpful, sometimes)

[Calebro]

Again thanks for any and all replies (even the nasty ones can be helpful, sometimes)

Improved Fortification is a newb trap. Never NEVER take it. It makes you immune to divine healing (from Clerics and FvSs) which makes your choice of Empowered Healing Spell useless. Well, even more useless.

[Iyan]

Very good to know, I must have misread that, i'll take it out of the build. With all the changes to the game I feel like im almost starting over again. Making alot of newb mistakes, but at least im doing it in forums and not in game yet.