Sorcerer/wizard role reversal in ddo vs pnp

[Salsa]

I enjoy Squelch and Asp's dialogues.


It makes me glad that the groups I play with play for fun and for hanging out.

Cause really, I don't call what they play D&D but everyone has their own style.

[Aspenor]

I enjoy Squelch and Asp's dialogues.


It makes me glad that the groups I play with play for fun and for hanging out.

Cause really, I don't call what they play D&D but everyone has their own style.

I play for fun and hanging out too, only I play differently. It doesn't mean we don't have fun, we have lots of fun.

Truthfully though, I can't have fun if the character I am playing sucks at life. Nobody wants to roleplay a chump (unless they are kinda weird).

[Peo]

I like how SquelchHU basically hides behind a wall of "No, I'm not wrong! YOU'RE wrong! I'm the ultimate authority on D&D because I am a powergamer and I don't actually care about what makes D&D so great! And if you disagree with me, you're a troll because I'm so awesome that I can decide this sort of thing! People disagreeing with me justifies my condescending attitude because I say so!"

No wonder powergamers are the black sheep of the D&D community.

Long story short, ignore the powergaming troll. He's just seeking attention because he can only play with other powergamers and forgets what D&D is supposed to be about: Roleplaying.

In Squel/Asp manner I say Fail.

Powergamers don't have bad reputations among the sensible. Take DDO for a prime example, if you build a poor character you suck so badly people carry your weight and don't invite you back. So you have build something that can handle the quests, the act of building say an intimitank that is capable of living long enough to intimidating a raid boss is min/max at it's finest. MMORPGs force you to power game, otherwise no one likes how ineffective you are.

It is the same thing on the table top as well. Banking on the DM to adjust encounters to be weaker than they should be is no different than the DM increasing the difficulty of encounters to challenge a character. The only real difference from what I've seen form games and forums is that powergamers tolerate different play styles better than any other group name.

If you wish to pursue your train of thought (calling him a troll), please leave your roleplayers-hate-powergamers baggage at the door.

***

Truthfully though, I can't have fun if the character I am playing sucks at life. Nobody wants to roleplay a chump (unless they are kinda weird).

Seconded.

[sainy_matthew]

Powergamers don't have bad reputations among the sensible. Take DDO for a prime example, if you build a poor character you suck so badly people carry your weight and don't invite you back. So you have build something that can handle the quests, the act of building say an intimitank that is capable of living long enough to intimidating a raid boss is min/max at it's finest. MMORPGs force you to power game, otherwise no one likes how ineffective you are.

which is neither here, nor there as we are not talking about DDO. The two are barely considerable as being similiar, let alone the same. For starters victory in D&D is not insured by numbers alone, theres also the whole roleplaying side of the game. In the PnP game the ability to adapt on the fly is significantly more important then having the greatest DPS, the most win spells, or the most *****en AC (even though all these things are important). In fact as soon as your start to equate D&D with DDO is the exact second you should step away from both & take some time away from both.

It is the same thing on the table top as well.

Not really, the DM is not an uncompromising computer incapable or rational thought for starters. Actual play in DDO is in no way similiar to D&D, because the DM is a thinking creature in D&D & doesn't need to enforce the rules the same way DDO does.

Banking on the DM to adjust encounters to be weaker than they should be is no different than the DM increasing the difficulty of encounters to challenge a character.

So your saying its easy to do then. We'll then we are both in agreeance, because its very simple to do. Heck you don't have to... Death is a pretty self correcting mechanism for players to create characters by. Its best for players to learn this on there own because by failing the players become more compotent with the system (they find out what does and does not work, which is really the only way to learn).

The only real difference from what I've seen from games and forums is that powergamers tolerate different play styles better than any other group name.

Yeah, i've seen that tolerance here... No i'm kidding, most power gamers are a raving lunatics fringe & that can be seen pretty obviously in many different forum boards including this one. People who know how a system works are not the same as power gamers. For starters a person who know how the system works works the system for the benefit of the game, power gamers don't care for the game only the system. Power gamers are the kind of people who when told by the DM why something will not work story-wise, will sit there & pull out 10 different books to prove it will, completely ignoring flavour text or intention.

If you wish to pursue your train of thought (calling him a troll), please leave your roleplayers-hate-powergamers baggage at the door.

roleplayers don't hate power gamers, people who are having fun hate people who show up and tell them they are doing it wrong. Especially when there definition of "doing it wrong" is more like "your not doing it the way i would." Thats not hatred of power gamers by roleplayers, it is however a general dislike of stubborn people who are unwilling to see that just because someone is not doing something the same way you are, it is not because they are yet to hear your take on that aspect of the system. (please read the next paragraph before commenting)

3.5 D&D has enough wiggle room that there are many ways to play a unique functional character without constantly retreading old ground. The people who come along & say "you must play this way," because they think there build is perfect, have yet to grasp two essential idea:
1. There is no such thing as a perfect build
2. Trying different builds is part of the fun of D&D

-M

[Truga]

stuff

Actually there is a perfect build, IF all you care about is combat efficiency, and (this is important), the DM will allow you to exploit it just the way you want. I've yet to see a competent DM that will though.

Also, going on with your list:
3. Everywhere, all the time, in the D&D books as a DM you are encouraged to adapt to your current players. Thus, as a DM, you are encouraged to step on that wizard's toes, every time he tries to exploit his abilities to make the game play out differently than you want it to.

Also, Aspenor said earlier that you can just take a prestige class but in the DMG page 176, it says, and i quote:

Prestige classes are purely optional and always under the purview of the DM. We encourage you, as the DM, to tightly limit the prestige classes available in your campaign. The example prestige classes are certainly not all encompassing or definitive. They might not even be appropriate for your campaign. The best prestige classes for your campaign are the ones you tailor make yourself.

[sainy_matthew]

Actually there is a perfect build, IF all you care about is combat efficiency, and (this is important), the DM will allow you to exploit it just the way you want. I've yet to see a competent DM that will though.

Even then its not perfect. There will aways be things capable of kicking your arse, hence not perfect. But beyond that comabt efficiency is not the smae as perfect any way (at least in my opinion).

Also, going on with your list:
3. Everywhere, all the time, in the D&D books as a DM you are encouraged to adapt to your current players. Thus, as a DM, you are encouraged to step on that wizard's toes, every time he tries to exploit his abilities to make the game play out differently than you want it to.

The main advantage of not playing with a computer, but a living person.

Also, Aspenor said earlier that you can just take a prestige class but in the DMG page 176, it says, and i quote:

Yeah your quoted text is exactly right. Its what i was alluding too earlier on, especially the appropriateness of some PrC's.

-M

[Aspenor]

Also, Aspenor said earlier that you can just take a prestige class but in the DMG page 176, it says, and i quote:

Sorry, but you are misunderstanding what I said if you are using that quote. I didn't mean they aren't under DM discretion, of course they are.

What I meant was that you don't make a character and suddenly the DM assigns you a prestige class. You discuss the option beforehand, and build toward that point after you have already gotten permission. It's not the DM that assigns them, though, the player makes it a goal and then takes it.

[sainy_matthew]

Sorry, but you are misunderstanding what I said if you are using that quote. I didn't mean they aren't under DM discretion, of course they are.

What I meant was that you don't make a character and suddenly the DM assigns you a prestige class. You discuss the option beforehand, and build toward that point after you have already gotten permission. It's not the DM that assigns them, though, the player makes it a goal and then takes it.

I don't recall anyone even suggesting that a DM does give PrC's. Was this in this thread?

[Aspenor]

I don't recall anyone even suggesting that a DM does give PrC's. Was this in this thread?

It was, but I don't really even remember when or where.

[Suzaku]

My suggestion when building a character is to see what level of optimization everyone else is. If the other players have CoDzilla (Cleric or Druid), batman wizard I guess you better start doing similar. If the other players are building a Charisma base fighter, don't build a monk... j/k, hopefully you guys got my point.

[Truga]

I said DM grants you a PrC, though what I really meant was that DM grants you the ability to use/train that PrC.

As in, he must allow somewhere in his campaign for you to fulfill the non-statistical prerequisites for your class. Such as special encounter with a trainer for said class etc. This is my bad though, I should've made it clearer the first time.

Also, I remember reading about how your character needs to either fulfill certain requirements, or at least meet a trainer to get access to a prestige class. This was 3.0 books though, so that might have changed..

[Rineth]

Also, I remember reading about how your character needs to either fulfill certain requirements, or at least meet a trainer to get access to a prestige class. This was 3.0 books though, so that might have changed..

Most prestige classes just have skill/feat requirements. Some have spell or BAB requirements but if you're the type of character that should even be considering that class those are a joke.

Some prestige classes do have specific role playing type requirements, but most of these prestige classes blow as their abilities are far too overspecialized or just general weaksauce. It's really not hard to meet these requirements either way if your DM isn't a total tool.

As for the whole talking to a trainer thing, that's just absolute silliness. The idea that you have to go talk to some random dude to crystallize all of the knowledge and experience you've acquired is the purview of MMOs. I believe I've seen one or two mentions of this as an alternate rule or DM preference type thing, but it's stupid either way.

After catching up on this entire thread, it seems like there's maybe five people in here who've played D&D more than five times with anyone other than a bunch of neckbeards from the local comic shop.

If you've played D&D into high levels at all with anyone of even moderate intelligence, you should have personally seen what Asp and Squelch have been espousing. D&D is a caster show. You sit back and watch the casters dominate. When you're not doing that, you thank them for all they've done in allowing your mundane toon to not look the kid sister that's only along because someone got slapped with babysitting duty.

[SquelchHU]

yes because assuming max hp and assuming max damage the fireball is ineffective.

assuming less than max hp and less than max damage fireball still ineffective.

Yes fighters can use bola's or a net or whatever other unique and cool weapon you can get your hands on, that was not the exact point. The point was that if you are focusing on direct damage spells in DND you more then likely are not going to succeed in your mission....unless said mission was wiping out hordes of low hp minions in said army on army conflict.....not really likely, that is more of a 4th edition thing.

The easiest way to beat a spell caster is to gain his/her trust then turn on them when they are least expecting (discounting the fact that if the DM allows it they would know you were going to do it anyway with a combo of divinations)..and that is far from easy, most casters are paranoid beyond the pale and do not trust anyone.


Squelch, I am not discounting the fact that the counter posters may annoy you....just saying the way you respond festers a similar response from them perpetuating the cycle.
And I do not have links for the Complete Series as that would be illegal and as I said before I wasn't positive about the Tatooed monk or henshin mystic having a heavy fort like ability. I think one of the tatoo options grants it but again no books don't know if I am right or wrong at this point.

Now see, this is what I meant about 'what are you talking about'?

Here is the original post:

at 10th level a base line fighter with his gimped 16 con with no items has the potential for 130 hp. that is the capped damage for 2 max level fireballs....sorry but the fighter usually isn't going to be alone and you aren't going to get the second one off if anyone has any skill.....rogue with bola's or a net, another caster with web or whatever else, a druid wildshaping, or even a plucky monk just annoying you to death will end the encounter first.

You go from saying things like max damage vs max HP is ineffective, average damage vs average HP are ineffective, casters with web and druids wildshaping to... talking about people actually using a rogue with bolas or a net, or a monk being used at all. Thus, 'what are you talking about'? Because see, when you make a mix of completely correct and completely incorrect statements you come across as picking things entirely at random, instead of actually knowing what does and does not work.

And there is no denying that a Wizard who uses his action to cast Fireball is gimping himself heavily to have it. If however the Rogue gimps himself heavily by using bolas or a net, or the Monk gimps himself heavily by existing the Wizard still wins each and every time.

So you see, you either need to be consistently correct or consistently incorrect. Going for the monkeys on typewriters random jump between extremes approach is worse than both of these.

So you're commenting on something with which you have no experience. Golden.

You are an adventurer, not only that, you are a wizard. You are the least dependent on magical items of everybody in your party. By the time you've obtained level 16 and nearly 17, you have amassed an incredible amount of wealth with comparatively little on which to spend it. You purposefully carry many scrolls that you may need, particularly ones like Moment of Prescience that is incredibly useful, and lasts hours per level until discharged (which is, at this level, effectively the entire adventuring day). You make much more than the cost of the scroll back for every encounter, so there is no reason at all that you can't use multiples every day.

I also think you sorely overestimate how many spells it takes to get through an adventuring day (which can be explained by your insistence that dealing damage with spells is useful, and explains your fascination with reserve feats). A typical adventuring day is supposed to be 4 or 5 encounters, give or take. You can easily end many encounters with just 1, but to be fair let us say you use 2. You still have a TON of spells to deal with any surprises you may have, you even have plenty to do this at lower levels when you use the right spells.

Quoted for Win. Though, isn't that one a level 8 spell?

The thing that certain people are completely missing is that me and Aspenor haven't just said this stuff. We've done it. Games where the group goes through well over 4 encounters, at over level and wins, with spells left at the end They didn't have to fight all the enemies at once, but they had the power to, buff timers were going so gogogo.

And we've both played in games where the power level is more normal. And the same thing happens except that the encounters are 'merely' level appropriate, instead of the baseline being 1-2 levels higher, and optimized.

I'd start copy pasting notes, but I lost them to hard drive failure. Suffice it to say that in both the normal games, and the hard mode games casters = win, save or (choose one: die/lose/suck) spells = win, and everything else = fail. The hard mode games require optimized casters instead of common sense ones but it's not like there is some game in which the weak classes magically become viable, without the whole world being nerfed hard around them. Because there isn't.

A monk can technically obtain heavy fort on a robe, shirt, or something of that nature. He just has to pay through the teeth for it (just like he has to pay through the teeth for everything). Multiply the base price by 1.5 to use a non-traditional body slot.

The monk also pays through the teeth for enhancement bonuses to his weapons due to the amulet he uses costing something like 4 times as much as a weapon of the same bonus (AFB and can't check on that).

3. Double for no apparent reason, and then 50% more (of the new total) for off slotting.

And he could but as you can't point at a printed material source, it comes down to a house rule. Which is just one more opportunity to get the shaft.

As for me, well it's really a moot point what I'd do about it, since no Monk is going to actually survive to a level where he can afford it. But I'd be inclined to not only let him have it, but to let him have it for free. The only catch? It's RED.

I enjoy Squelch and Asp's dialogues.


It makes me glad that the groups I play with play for fun and for hanging out.

Cause really, I don't call what they play D&D but everyone has their own style.

So basically, you don't call D&D D&D?

Also, you cannot roleplay if you are dead. Or play at all, for that matter. And setting your status to 'not dead' requires a minimum baseline of competence. Or put more simply you must have an effective character to have fun, otherwise whatever you're doing is not something you will be doing for long.

See, I play for fun too. And that means not dying every other combat, so I can continue to have fun and build my character, mechanically and characterization wise. Likewise, those other guys at the table? They need to be having fun too. And that means not running around with a fail character who dies every other fight. Or having to be the DM of the same, who even if he knows he's only killing the fail character because it is a fail character (as opposed to say, specifically gunning for them) is still likely to feel bad about it and will ultimately be even more constrained by the gimp than the gimp himself.

I play for fun and hanging out too, only I play differently. It doesn't mean we don't have fun, we have lots of fun.

Truthfully though, I can't have fun if the character I am playing sucks at life. Nobody wants to roleplay a chump (unless they are kinda weird).

Or this.

In Squel/Asp manner I say Fail.

Powergamers don't have bad reputations among the sensible. Take DDO for a prime example, if you build a poor character you suck so badly people carry your weight and don't invite you back. So you have build something that can handle the quests, the act of building say an intimitank that is capable of living long enough to intimidating a raid boss is min/max at it's finest. MMORPGs force you to power game, otherwise no one likes how ineffective you are.

It is the same thing on the table top as well. Banking on the DM to adjust encounters to be weaker than they should be is no different than the DM increasing the difficulty of encounters to challenge a character. The only real difference from what I've seen form games and forums is that powergamers tolerate different play styles better than any other group name.

If you wish to pursue your train of thought (calling him a troll), please leave your roleplayers-hate-powergamers baggage at the door.

***

Seconded.

The only problem with this statement is that 'sensible people have no problem with powergamers'. See, your statements stipulate on the opposition being sensible. This is not the case. Instead what you have is people that act just like they came off the Pathfinder forums - they aren't not wanting to optimize. They are. Very much so. The trouble is, they think they're hot **** running around with what is ultimately a fail build. And when someone genuinely offers to help them build the uber character they want, they get angry and indignant, as they think they've already made a uber character. Kinda like the 6 Con archers in DDO really.

Most prestige classes just have skill/feat requirements. Some have spell or BAB requirements but if you're the type of character that should even be considering that class those are a joke.

Some prestige classes do have specific role playing type requirements, but most of these prestige classes blow as their abilities are far too overspecialized or just general weaksauce. It's really not hard to meet these requirements either way if your DM isn't a total tool.

As for the whole talking to a trainer thing, that's just absolute silliness. The idea that you have to go talk to some random dude to crystallize all of the knowledge and experience you've acquired is the purview of MMOs. I believe I've seen one or two mentions of this as an alternate rule or DM preference type thing, but it's stupid either way.

After catching up on this entire thread, it seems like there's maybe five people in here who've played D&D more than five times with anyone other than a bunch of neckbeards from the local comic shop.

If you've played D&D into high levels at all with anyone of even moderate intelligence, you should have personally seen what Asp and Squelch have been espousing. D&D is a caster show. You sit back and watch the casters dominate. When you're not doing that, you thank them for all they've done in allowing your mundane toon to not look the kid sister that's only along because someone got slapped with babysitting duty.

So I'm curious. Obviously me and Aspenor are two of the people. And you and Sukaku are another two. Who is number 5?

Also, it doesn't take 'until high levels'. You can see it as early as level 1, but it isn't really obvious until level 6. After all, SoD to multiple enemies > SoD to one enemy, and that's the parallel between Color Spray and melee attack at level 1. The latter isn't total fail, but the alternative is still as good or better. It gets worse at every level thereafter though.

As for Mr. 'Oh, the rules don't matter, because my fail character can still work in D&D but not in DDO' I am half tempted to invite you to a real game, just so I can show you what being level appropriate actually means (and likely end up slaughtering you repeatedly, as pewpewpew for 4d6 is in no way meaningful or relevant at level 8). It's funny he mentions RHoD so often, as that is a total joke of a campaign but it still shoves it to beatsticks hard.

[Truga]

Well prestige classes have changed since 3.0 then. Doesn't matter, still up to the DM to allow it or not.

Also, high level play being a caster show or not is completely up to the group that's playing... And don't get me wrong, I love caster shows. I just don't see much point in playing only that way, it will get boring for me fast.

[SquelchHU]

Well prestige classes have changed since 3.0 then. Doesn't matter, still up to the DM to allow it or not.

Also, high level play being a caster show or not is completely up to the group that's playing... And don't get me wrong, I love caster shows. I just don't see much point in playing only that way, it will get boring for me fast.

Are you really going to go from the standpoint of 'Fighters Do Not Get Nice Things' to 'Casters do not in fact rule everything' in two consecutive paragraphs? Really? Seriously? Because even though the latter is true even if the former is not, when you CAUSE a problem and then act as if that problem does not exist, you are a tool.

Now I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here since you repeatedly insist you're new (yet still take the position of the teacher instead of the student far too often).

[Hollowgolem]

A Wizard who doesn't ignore the Divination school will always be better-prepared, in Pencil-and-Paper, than a Sorcerer.

Period.

[Aspenor]

Quoted for Win. Though, isn't that one a level 8 spell?

It is, but I was responding within the context of the encounter with 8 thugs against level 16 characters, and showing why there is literally no chance that any of the thugs will beat the wizard's initiative. It wouldn't really matter in a real game, because the wizard would not actually walk anywhere.

[SquelchHU]

It is, but I was responding within the context of the encounter with 8 thugs against level 16 characters, and showing why there is literally no chance that any of the thugs will beat the wizard's initiative. It wouldn't really matter in a real game, because the wizard would not actually walk anywhere.

What I was getting at was he could just cast it himself. And yeah, in a real game they're going to be flying full time (and also FoMed full time, so dropping Tentacles on them is no problem at all).

[Aspenor]

What I was getting at was he could just cast it himself. And yeah, in a real game they're going to be flying full time (and also FoMed full time, so dropping Tentacles on them is no problem at all).

True, and they will be immune to grapple by enemies as well (FoM).

I said scrolls because, well, you don't want to use all your highest level spell slots for MoP. The cost of each scroll (if you don't scribe it, which you might as well) is 3,000 gp. At level 16, you are gaining 28,000 gp per encounter, so...using one every time you finish an encounter to last until the next is a pittance.

[sainy_matthew]

A Wizard who doesn't ignore the Divination school will always be better-prepared, in Pencil-and-Paper, than a Sorcerer.

Period.

Um... i'm pretty sure a sorcerer gets spells from the school of divination too. just keep in mind that you need to know what to ask before you cast. Divination is not a good excuse for a lack of actual research.