Sorcerer/wizard role reversal in ddo vs pnp

[Postumus]

Oh it is a huge flaw in the system. It has never made sense to make one group beat down the door to get inside while the other group just walks around the door.

Yeah, but none of this is new. Every time a new book comes out something - a skill, class, spell, race - get overpowered b/c the publisher didn't foresee every possible combination or way it could be used. This eventually gets exploited by clever players, and the ultimately revised.

That's why its up to the DM to try to take the published guidelines and decide what works best in his/her campaign.

Despite all the whining from rules lawyers about 'but its in the book!!!," experienced DMs have managed their campaigns as they see fit. Some don't allow certain classes, spells, races for players, abilities, etc. b/c they don't fit in their scenario.

Arguments about 'house rules' and 'gimping classes' are just silly. Since AD&D it has been called the "Dungeon Master's Guide" not "Dungeon Master's Commandments."

Ignoring this basic principle is how you end up with Monty Haul campaigns where characters walk into a magic shop to buy whatever they want 'because in the rules it says magic item X is only 3,000 gold pieces!" Or wizards who have access to every conceivable spell every published, or players who talk to gods on a daily basis so they know which spells to cast the next day. ROFL!

[Postumus]

Oh, I don't know...a torch? The one you carried when you cast Alter Self and turned into an Avariel with 50 ft fly speed? Or a flaming arrow? Or gave to your familiar to fly over and light the torch?

TEHWIZ: "OK I give the torch to my familiar and he flies across the chasm to light the signal pyre!"


DM: "Uhhh your HUMMING BIRD familiar? OK, he tries to take the torch in his beak and crashes to the ground." Rolls. "Whoops, looks like the poor guy got a little singed in the process. What happens to you when your familiar gets killed again?


TEHWIZ: "WAIT WAIT, I mean I shoot a flaming arrow at the pyre."


DM: "OK, it's extreme range, roll."


20 arrows later....


DM: "OK, you're out of arrows, what next?"


TEHWiZ: "Fine! I cast alter self and fly over as an Avariel."


DM: "Great. You fly over with a torch and are about to light the pyre when the squad of scouts who are protecting the pyre come out from their hiding places and open fire with arrows." DM rolls. "OK, looks like you got hit with four arrows.. that's 17 damage."


TEHWIZ: "WHAAAT??? How come I didn't see those guys when i flew over! That's not fair!"


DM: "Well you would have, except they were hiding once they were alerted to your presence with all those arrows whistling by overhead."


TEHWIZ: "DARN IT! OK Color Spray!"


DM: "With a torch in your hand? I thought we've been through this."


CLERIC: Turns to WIZ2 "Can you see what's happening?"


WIZ2: "Ahhh... he kinda looks like a flying pin cushion with a torch."


CLERIC: "Sigh. OK, I'll get the CLW ready."


WIZ2: "Yeah, but... how are we gonna get over there to help him?"


CLERIC: "You're an elf, can't you shoot some arrows or something?"


WIZ2: "Arrows?? FEH!!! Arrows are GIMP!"

[sainy_matthew]

TEHWIZ: "OK I give the torch to my familiar and he flies across the chasm to light the signal pyre!"


DM: "Uhhh your HUMMING BIRD familiar? OK, he tries to take the torch in his beak and crashes to the ground." Rolls. "Whoops, looks like the poor guy got a little singed in the process. What happens to you when your familiar gets killed again?


TEHWIZ: "WAIT WAIT, I mean I shoot a flaming arrow at the pyre."


DM: "OK, it's extreme range, roll."


20 arrows later....


DM: "OK, you're out of arrows, what next?"


TEHWiZ: "Fine! I cast alter self and fly over as an Avariel."


DM: "Great. You fly over with a torch and are about to light the pyre when the squad of scouts who are protecting the pyre come out from their hiding places and open fire with arrows." DM rolls. "OK, looks like you got hit with four arrows.. that's 17 damage."


TEHWIZ: "WHAAAT??? How come I didn't see those guys when i flew over! That's not fair!"


DM: "Well you would have, except they were hiding once they were alerted to your presence with all those arrows whistling by overhead."


TEHWIZ: "DARN IT! OK Color Spray!"


DM: "With a torch in your hand? I thought we've been through this."


CLERIC: Turns to WIZ2 "Can you see what's happening?"


WIZ2: "Ahhh... he kinda looks like a flying pin cushion with a torch."


CLERIC: "Sigh. OK, I'll get the CLW ready."


WIZ2: "Yeah, but... how are we gonna get over there to help him?"


CLERIC: "You're an elf, can't you shoot some arrows or something?"


WIZ2: "Arrows?? FEH!!! Arrows are GIMP!"

Hahahahahahaha +1 Rep.

[Aspenor]

Hey, genius, you only need ONE hand free to cast a spell.

Also, the familiar was only one suggestion, and you may or may not have a hummingbird. Any person with remote intelligence would know this.

Your failure to grasp how the game works is pretty strong. You sure you've ever played?

[Dunfalach]

Also, the familiar was only one suggestion, and you may or may not have a hummingbird.

My little gnome wizard had a snow white fox. Which had a rumored ongoing relationship with the elf ranger's fox companion. My gnome's other frequent companion was a stone chicken, mid-run with wings spread and beak open in a panic, from one of his earliest adventures when the little low-level party encountered a cockatrice in the farmer's chicken coop. The farmer being poor, the very charitable party took the stone chickens as payment. Being a gnome, he took the most absurd one he could find.

Now I want a hummingbird.

[Aspenor]

My little gnome wizard had a snow white fox. Which had a rumored ongoing relationship with the elf ranger's fox companion. My gnome's other frequent companion was a stone chicken, mid-run with wings spread and beak open in a panic, from one of his earliest adventures when the little low-level party encountered a cockatrice in the farmer's chicken coop. The farmer being poor, the very charitable party took the stone chickens as payment. Being a gnome, he took the most absurd one he could find.

Now I want a hummingbird.

Hummingbirds are arguably the second best familiar available due to the big initiative boost. Many people say the raven or other speaking/flying familiars are best, because you can have it invest in Use Magic Device and hand it a wand, effectively doubling your actions.

[Dunfalach]

How are you supposed to complain about the DM if he doesn't attempt to put one over on you? I thought that the whole point of the game was the session complaining about the DM afterwards.

Apparently this joke was what earned me the negative rep, if the one that is at the top of the screen when you click the link is the earning one.

[Aspenor]

Apparently this joke was what earned me the negative rep, if the one that is at the top of the screen when you click the link is the earning one.

There are boxes by your rep entries, if the box next to the link is red, it was that post.

My rep hits a lot harder than whoever it was that dinged you for that, I'm sure.

[Dunfalach]

I can't even remember what the bonus from fox familiars was in 3.0. It seemed the most suited to my gnome at the time. He was an illusionist, with a secondary summoning focus. I wish invisibility in DDO worked the same as in pnp. You can get some interesting effects as an illusionist spec out of the ability to cast non-damaging spells without losing invisibility.

[Aspenor]

I can't even remember what the bonus from fox familiars was in 3.0. It seemed the most suited to my gnome at the time. He was an illusionist, with a secondary summoning focus. I wish invisibility in DDO worked the same as in pnp. You can get some interesting effects as an illusionist spec out of the ability to cast non-damaging spells without losing invisibility.

Illusionists can be great fun to play. In fact, one of the most powerful characters in all of 3.5 is a certain type of gnome illusionist.

[SquelchHU]

Hey, genius, you only need ONE hand free to cast a spell.

Also, the familiar was only one suggestion, and you may or may not have a hummingbird. Any person with remote intelligence would know this.

Your failure to grasp how the game works is pretty strong. You sure you've ever played?

Apparently this joke was what earned me the negative rep, if the one that is at the top of the screen when you click the link is the earning one.

I did it because your other posts made it clear you were not joking, and actually thought the game should work that way. I would have ignored it otherwise, but Gygaxian BS needs to die in a fire. Especially since it feeds the trolls.

I'm not going to take it back, but all you have to do is knock it off, and start making good points and I'll start pos repping those.

And yes, illusionists are made of Win and Awesome.

[Truga]

And yes, illusionists are made of Win and Awesome.

I think this is something just about everyone can agree on.

[timberhick]

Yeah, but none of this is new. Every time a new book comes out something - a skill, class, spell, race - get overpowered b/c the publisher didn't foresee every possible combination or way it could be used. This eventually gets exploited by clever players, and the ultimately revised.

That's why its up to the DM to try to take the published guidelines and decide what works best in his/her campaign.

Despite all the whining from rules lawyers about 'but its in the book!!!," experienced DMs have managed their campaigns as they see fit. Some don't allow certain classes, spells, races for players, abilities, etc. b/c they don't fit in their scenario.

Arguments about 'house rules' and 'gimping classes' are just silly. Since AD&D it has been called the "Dungeon Master's Guide" not "Dungeon Master's Commandments."

Ignoring this basic principle is how you end up with Monty Haul campaigns where characters walk into a magic shop to buy whatever they want 'because in the rules it says magic item X is only 3,000 gold pieces!" Or wizards who have access to every conceivable spell every published, or players who talk to gods on a daily basis so they know which spells to cast the next day. ROFL!

Trust me I agree with you. Unfortunately, most do not play that way. If it's published its usable and your a bad DM if you disallow it.

The other part to it is 3e was specifically designed around system mastery. That concept falls right into the perview of people like squelchy and asp. It's all about game

[Postumus]

Also, the familiar was only one suggestion, and you may or may not have a hummingbird. Any person with remote intelligence would know this.

Your failure to grasp how the game works is pretty strong. You sure you've ever played?

YOU picked the hummingbird, not me (see your OP). If we were playing actual DnD and not "My Fantasy Uber-Wizard Challenge" you would have had to ROLL to see what responded - if anything - to your Find Familiar spell.

In DnD you don't get to "pick" your familiar, you don't get to trot down to 'Ye Olde Magik Shoppe' for any item in the book, and you don't have access to every spell ever published. Not at 7th level. Certainly not at 3rd level.

But this OP Challenge is your game, so we're playing by your rules. It's not my fault that even after you've stacked the deck your favor, your choices don't result in the instant wins you are used to.

[Aspenor]

YOU picked the hummingbird, not me (see your OP). If we were playing actual DnD and not "My Fantasy Uber-Wizard Challenge" you would have had to ROLL to see what responded - if anything - to your Find Familiar spell.

In DnD you don't get to "pick" your familiar, you don't get to trot down to 'Ye Olde Magik Shoppe' for any item in the book, and you don't have access to every spell ever published. Not at 7th level. Certainly not at 3rd level.

But this OP Challenge is your game, so we're playing by your rules. It's not my fault that even after you've stacked the deck your favor, your choices don't result in the instant wins you are used to.

You are in the wrong thread, pal. I'm not the OP of this thread, and quite frankly, there was only ONE encounter that can be considered a remote threat, and that was a broken ghost (because ghosts are broken just by existing). Fail.

There is no justification in the rules that states you must roll to determine a familiar, and your stupid house rules don't matter. Fail.

Items and spells are not limited in DnD by any means other than maximum gold piece purchases in a certain city size. If you want to HOUSERULE something, that's fine, but don't pretend that it's anything more than a houserule and completely irrelevant to what I am talking about. Fail.

That's you. Fail.

[Postumus]

Hey, genius, you only need ONE hand free to cast a spell.

Actually the rules state

You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.

Color Spray is a two-handed spell.

[sainy_matthew]

You are in the wrong thread, pal. I'm not the OP of this thread, and quite frankly, there was only ONE encounter that can be considered a remote threat, and that was a broken ghost (because ghosts are broken just by existing). Fail.

Just because it is a well designed encounter that challenges your build, doesn't make it broken. For instance i can think of half a dozen ways for a level 6 party to defeat/hamper my ghost grimlock encounter (But since you had asked for an encounter that could challenge your bat-mage build, thats what i gave you). Just because it is extremely challenging for you, doesn't mean a good generalist group can't defeat it. Having said that here are a list of other monsters who could easily challenge your indirect mage build.

-Ambush Drake: (MM3 page 8 ). A lesser dragon with immunities to magical sleep, paralyzation & with a spell resistance of 16 (not huge, but you'd hate to mess up that roll). What’s more there telepathically in contact with other members of there species so even if you blind one, they can still coordinate attacks. Its even better if you don’t know about how they coordinate… that’s the kind of surprise that can kill you.

- Wood Woad: (MM3 page 196) in any forest with a solid canopy above your head. Flying away in that case takes time, you can’t outpace them on the ground & they have a built in escape if said caster, casts his signature spell “Glitterdust.” Also if your in a large forest for any length of time they can easily outpace you and glitterdust.

- Woodling Troll: (A troll with the Woodling template MM3 page 197). The funny thing is, any one with fire can toast this guy like nobodies business (Vulnerability to fire extremely high)… Shame you don’t have any fire spells on your list (See what I mean when I said over specialize and die). Use the same set up as Wood Woad & you are done for.

- Orc-Wort & Wortlings: (MM2, page 165) A plant creature & its moving, walking attacking fruit. All the fun plant triats combined with some fun powers.

- Barghest with goblin pack back-up: (MM page 22) Make it a greater Barghest & put his goblin pack within an invisibilty sphere & wait for people to wander into them. Combine that with the blink and dimension door & you have all the things that make a mage dangerous. Change the goblins to hobgoblins to up the challenge & then have the Barghest preemptively cast mass bull strength & mass enlarge.

- A pair of Force Golems (MM5 page 69): Magical knock down & move in for melee, fade to black. A bit of a challenge, especially if you don't see them before they move into position.

- Shaedling: (MM5 page 148) Good for taking on flying enemies, I had a DM do this to a sorcerer of mine. They are CR 2 so the DM can use lots of them & only 1 needs to hit for the rest to suddenly become uber-effective.

- Swarms & Oozes: Pretty much any swarm or ooze in a confined space.

- undead: Pretty much any undead heavy adventure.

- Pretty much any suprise attack or ambush situation.

There is no justification in the rules that states you must roll to determine a familiar, and your stupid house rules don't matter. Fail.

Actually thats not a house rule, its a misconception, that some players have brought in from 2E, where you did in fact have to roll based on a spell to summon a familiar. Also, since he was not trying to refute your build, there was no reason to start in with your "Fail" logic. Just because someone does something different to the way you do it, doesn't make it a Fail. In fact people who rely on using the word Fail, instead of being able to express a point are the people who are full of fail: Failure at basic communication.

Items and spells are not limited in DnD by any means other than maximum gold piece purchases in a certain city size. If you want to HOUSERULE something, that's fine, but don't pretend that it's anything more than a houserule and completely irrelevant to what I am talking about. Fail.

Actually the final limitation of treasure in D&D is the DM. He controls what is and is not available in his campaign. For instance if you are in a frozen tundra, don't expect to be able to go to the local store and purchase a desert magical item. The DM is the final arbitrator on his campaign, regardless of what the guidlines say: Rule 0 is the most important rule.

-M

[Aspenor]

Color Spray is a two-handed spell.

Wrong, fail.

Color Spray
Illusion (Pattern) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 15 ft.
Area: Cone-shaped burst
Duration: Instantaneous; see text
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

A vivid cone of clashing colors springs forth from your hand, causing creatures to become stunned, perhaps also blinded, and possibly knocking them unconscious.

There is no such thing as a "two handed spell," no spell published as far as I know states you must have both hands free to cast it. You only need one.

You fail so hard it's hilarious.

[SquelchHU]

Well, Aspenor has figured out why I don't give them the dignity of a detailed response and instead dismiss them outright with a single word.

[Aspenor]

Just because it is a well designed encounter that challenges your build, doesn't make it broken. For instance i can think of half a dozen ways for a level 6 party to defeat/hamper my ghost grimlock encounter (But since you had asked for an encounter that could challenge your bat-mage build, thats what i gave you). Just because it is extremely challenging for you, doesn't mean a good generalist group can't defeat it. Having said that here are a list of other monsters who could easily challenge your indirect mage build.

Anybody with a remote understanding of character optimization will tell you the ghost template is powerful to the point of brokenness. I'm not saying it's unfair, though, as I used the ever-broken polymorph and alter self.

-Ambush Drake: (MM3 page 8 ). A lesser dragon with immunities to magical sleep, paralyzation & with a spell resistance of 16 (not huge, but you'd hate to mess up that roll). What’s more there telepathically in contact with other members of there species so even if you blind one, they can still coordinate attacks. Its even better if you don’t know about how they coordinate… that’s the kind of surprise that can kill you.

So you get two of these, who cares? It takes more than one spell, but I can fly better than these guys and can get to 30 AC and take them out at my leisure.

- Wood Woad: (MM3 page 196) in any forest with a solid canopy above your head. Flying away in that case takes time, you can’t outpace them on the ground & they have a built in escape if said caster, casts his signature spell “Glitterdust.” Also if your in a large forest for any length of time they can easily outpace you and glitterdust.

- Woodling Troll: (A troll with the Woodling template MM3 page 197). The funny thing is, any one with fire can toast this guy like nobodies business (Vulnerability to fire extremely high)… Shame you don’t have any fire spells on your list (See what I mean when I said over specialize and die). Use the same set up as Wood Woad & you are done for.

I don't need fire. I beat the **** out of it and burn it with a torch.

- Orc-Wort & Wortlings: (MM2, page 165) A plant creature & its moving, walking attacking fruit. All the fun plant triats combined with some fun powers.

So you're going to throw a CR 20 against a level 8 character?

- Barghest with goblin pack back-up: (MM page 22) Make it a greater Barghest & put his goblin pack within an invisibilty sphere & wait for people to wander into them. Combine that with the blink and dimension door & you have all the things that make a mage dangerous. Change the goblins to hobgoblins to up the challenge & then have the Barghest preemptively cast mass bull strength & mass enlarge.

You have none of the things that make a mage dangerous, none at all. This encounter is also a joke.

- A pair of Force Golems (MM5 page 69): Magical knock down & move in for melee, fade to black. A bit of a challenge, especially if you don't see them before they move into position.

Blind. Trounce in melee. Game over.

- Shaedling: (MM5 page 148) Good for taking on flying enemies, I had a DM do this to a sorcerer of mine. They are CR 2 so the DM can use lots of them & only 1 needs to hit for the rest to suddenly become uber-effective.

Not particularly familiar with this monster, and don't have the book or any resource to look at it. It's highly doubtful it would pose a serious threat, though.

- Swarms & Oozes: Pretty much any swarm or ooze in a confined space.

I have natural weapons, breath weapons, and flight, and pretty much do not care about either of these.

- undead: Pretty much any undead heavy adventure.

lol no

- Pretty much any suprise attack or ambush situation.

Actually thats not a house rule, its a misconception, that some players have brought in from 2E, where you did in fact have to roll based on a spell to summon a familiar. Also, since he was not trying to refute your build, there was no reason to start in with your "Fail" logic. Just because someone does something different to the way you do it, doesn't make it a Fail. In fact people who rely on using the word Fail, instead of being able to express a point are the people who are full of fail: Failure at basic communication.

Actually the final limitation of treasure in D&D is the DM. He controls what is and is not available in his campaign. For instance if you are in a frozen tundra, don't expect to be able to go to the local store and purchase a desert magical item. The DM is the final arbitrator on his campaign, regardless of what the guidlines say: Rule 0 is the most important rule.

-M

You cannot have a discussion where people invoke rule 0 and use house rules. All you have as a common basis of understanding is the exact written rules, RAW, and that is what should be discussed (not decisions made by a DM).