Review of TWF Dps~U5

[Hurak]

Butler,

Could you break down how your getting 124.5 dam per hit please. I would think you'd need to include this to validate your figures.


Thxs

[butlerfamilywa]

EDITING DONE ~ Unless someone else can find a flaw.

***Flaw found. I was double calculating haste, which I will need to fix, however it drastically changes what I have written here***
***So figure this as a heavy rough draft, a bit higher than a Monk will put out***

It's listed in this thread, somewhere, I'm not exactly sure where... but what I'll do is clean it up, and make it prettier so its easier to understand. Probably tomorrow after I get back from swimming ect

You're right, I'm wrong.. I was off by .5 Damage per hit. (Wow, someone said it on the forums). However, my Main Hand Damage is higher than what is calculated for the critical hits, so the dps should not be too much of a change.

Anyways.. here's the breakdown of the dps that the monk puts out per hit for you, and again, I'll re-do the math tomorrow. Keep in mind, that since the other builds in these lists are going for max dps, full buffed, I did the same with this Monk.

2d12 = 13 + 24 (str bonus at max dps) + 1 Litany +2 Frenzied Beserker +3 Monk Past Lives +8 WF powerattack +5 from weapon,+8 tharnes +1 Prayer +9 Bard + 3d6 = 10.5 ninja spy = 84.5

2d6 = 7 (Holy Wraps) 3d6 = 10.5 (Greater Bane Wraps) 1d6 = 3.5 (Shocking Burst Ring) 2d6 = 7 (Holy Burst Ring) 1d6 = 3.5 (Icy Burst Ritual) 1d6 = 3.5 (Flaming Burst Robes) 1d6 = 3.5 (Flaming Henshin) +1 (Force Ritual)
= 39.5 ~ A Hit

84.5 Physical Damage (and sneak attack) + 39.5 Weapon Procs = 124 a Hit

84.5

1d10 = 5.5 (Shocking Burst Ring) 3d6 = 10.5 (Holy Burst Ring) 1d10 = 5.5 (Icy Burst Ritual) 1d10 = 5.5 (Flaming Burst Robes)
= 27 Extra Weapon Proc Damage on Crit

39.5 + 27 = 66.5 Weapon Proc Damage on Crit


Regular Attacks:
126 swings per Minute main hand for a Monk + 15% Haste = 144.9 - 5% miss chance, - 10% (crits) = 123.8895 Swings.
123.8895 hits * 124 damage / 60 seconds = 256.0383 Main-Hand DPS (Not counting Crits)
123.8895 swings per Minute @ 80% Off-hand chance = 99.1116 hits a minute off-hand
99.1116 hits * 124 damage / 60 seconds = 204.83064 Off-Hand DPS (Not counting Crits)
256.0383 + 204.83064 = 460.86894
Total
460.87 DPS on a regular hit, not counting crits


Critical Hits:
13.7655 swings crit, /4 = 3.441375 swings per min = affect crit
84.5 + 14 + 4 (Earth 3/4 avg + seeker) *2 =205 + 66.5 = 271.5 * 3.441375 = 934.3333125 /60 = 15.572221875 from Earth 3 & Earth 4
177 + 66.5 + 21 = 264.5 * 3.441375 = 910.2436875 /60 = 15.170728125 From Fist of Darkness & Fire 4
177 + 66.5 = 243.5 * 6.88275 = 1675.949625 /60 = 27.93249375 From normal crits
now
15.572221875 + 15.170728125 + 27.93249375 = 58.67544375

After Ki Strikes on Crits, Crit DPS = 58.67544375


Touch Of Death:
4 Strikes per min * 5% miss chance = 3.8 connecting attacks.
3.8 Strikes per min * 80% Off-Hand Proc = 3.04 Off-Hand ToD per min

Main hand ToD Damage =
500 * 3.8 connecting attacks per min = 1900 DPM /60 Seconds = 31.66 DPS.
Off Hand ToD Damage =
500 * 3.04 off-hand procs per min = 1520 DPM /60 Seconds = 25.33 DPS
31.66 Main Hand + 25.33 Off Hand =
Total
56.99 DPS from ToD


Fists of Darkness Regular hit & VORPAL Damage
.475 * 25.5 = 12.1125 /60 = 0.201875
.38 * 25.5 = 9.69 /60 = 0.1615
0.201875 + 0.1615 = 0.363375 Vorpal Damage per Second
0.363375 Vorpal Damage + 5.985 Hit Damage =
Total Fists of Darkness DPS
6.348375 DPS


Earth 3 and Earth 4 Acid Damage
9.5 APM * .10 (2% chance of Crit) = 0.95 Crit Chance * 80% Off-hand proc = 0.76 double crit
0.95 * 6.5 = 6.175 /60 = 0.1029
0.76 * 6.5 = 4.94 /60 = 0.0823
total 0.1852

0.95 * 10.5 = 9.975 /60 = .1662
0.76 * 10.5 = 7.98 /60 = .133
total .1795


Flame IV Strike
Ok, 6 seconds = 10 attacks per minute.
10 APM - 5% Miss = 9.5 APM
9.5 APM * 80% Off-Hand = 7.6 APM Off-Hand
So with these numbers we can figure..
9.5 * 21 = 199.5 /60 = 3.325 Main-Hand DPS
7.6 * 21 = 159.6 /60 = 2.66 Off-Hand DPS
3.325 + 2.66 =
Total
5.985


I can't seem to find my #'s for Earth 3 and Earth 4 Melee attack damages



This gives the monk I used for this DPS calculation (the monk I play...)

460.87 DPS For Regular Attacks
58.68 DPS For Crits
56.99 DPS For Touch of Death in Fire Stance IV
4.66 DPS For Earth 3 & 4 Ki Strikes (Dont think this is right, but a (16*10/60=2.66) + (12*10/60=2) = 4.66 ahwell)
6.34 DPS For Fists of Darkness & Vorpal Damage
5.98 DPS For Fire Strike IV
.3647 Earth Strike Acid Damage on Crits..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~593. 88 Total DPS~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also, while this might look like a DPS Decrease... until the Dev's fix Fire Stance's 10% Double-strike chance.. monks do get an increase to their dps from that as well while in fire stance.. figure 10% of the damage #'s added to over all DPS making it


46.08
5.86
5.69
.46
.63
.59
.03
------------
59.34
593. 88
653.22


actually a little lower than that, but I'm not going to rework everything just to figure in a loss of 2 damage on a hit... figure a loss of close to 20 dps off that 653.22...

So a Warforged Monk in Wind IV stance (10% Double Strike, Touch of Death, ect ect ect) Is looking at CLOSE TO
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~633.22 Max DPS~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I wouldn't say a maxed out Monk is going to match a maxed out Rogue for DPS.. but its **** close... for 2 non-full BaB classes, kinda funny really..

and Honestly.. against a 0 Fort, 0 DR, 0 Resistance Monster (Rare I know) I would be willing to bet, MONK is the #1 DPS toon, when built & geared for it.

[dormetheus]

Added in!

Awesome. It looks like it's doing a bit poor against Abbot because I forgot to change the build FE to undead. D'oh!

At least, that's why I'm guessing. None of this build's dmg should be situational except the FE.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

I do not share this viewpoint and found that this was a problem with earlier threads. I can not really imagine an instance in game where I have shrined every 5 minutes it is quite frankly a waste of time to shrine at times and there usually are not shrines every 5 minutes anyway perhaps 10-15 minutes of a quest. That being said build boosts will last longer then 5 minutes often because of the number of boosts players have and all the non fighting i.e. running between fights players do during a quest. 10 minutes between shrines seems like a better number although 15 and 20 minutes even are not out of the question.

I'd like to throw in why I think 5 minutes are more accurate, imo. I take it we can both agree that someone who is after max dps, also likes to take the quests fast, hence why they go too all the trubble to get max dps in the first place.

Second of all we can both agree that the quests that matters, are the epic ones, and the raids.

Now, lets pull it up.
Evon 1: less than 5 minutes to first shrine, actually, more like 4 enocunters or so, so goes about 4-5 boosts in total. At the defend point one might lack in a mid dps group, but in a high dps group 8-10 boosts is more than enough.

Evon 2: Clean beholders, or split, clean the spiders then head for the bridge and rest once you get there, 1 boost per beholders, 1 on spider group. From that point it's less than 5 min, about 2 boosts in maze, and 1 at giant, = 7 left at last encounter.

Evon 3: Also a quick one, you can spam boost to kingdom come before the first shrine and rest once you've cleared the eles and the boss after the traped door. You'll use about 4-5 boost in the coming fights including the next boss if it's there. And then you'll be at the next shrine. Save it, or rest - depending on the group basically. Either way, you'll have enough for beholders, boss to the left after waterfall, cleaning all the trash, and depending on if you saved it till after bhs, for the bosses as well. Else just rest before the bosses and use 3 boosts on em, and have 7 for the marut - more than enough.

Evon 4: Not that commonly run, but with some standard pulling and good dps the boosts will be enough between the 2 shrines available.

Eoob: This one is less than 5 minutes between the shrines as well, though not if you can't open the first shrine.

EWK: Not that commonly run either, I don't run it for sure. But here's another place where you might have some problems with the 5 minute duration unless you've got a really dps heavy group - either way in this quest I see your point.

ECoF: You wont have enough boosts in this one, I agree - but there's really no incentive to run this quest except for a first time to check it out, imo.

Eadq 1: Also a tricky one, having enough boosts in this one will be close to impossible though if you do the classic pulling with a FS it's a lot easier. Not that you run it as a 6-man often though, this one is usually a solo farm for scrolls.

ESentinels: Most quests have a shrine when you need it, can't be bothered to go through em all, as they're barely run, and the shrines are a plenty.

Shroud: With 10 boosts you can perma PS and do a boost every 2 portals and still have enough for part 2 (1 on trash, 1 on bosses), and rest in part 3. Part 4 is about 3 boosts, part 5 is about 6-7 boosts, depending on dps.

Tod: Part 1 is about 5-6 boosts, part 2 is about 3-4, part 5 is about 5-8 depending if you do suulo. A rest between each part makes it easy.

Vod: Same deal, the total amount of time you hit suulo / orthons is far less than 5 minutes.

Evon6: 1 boost on djinns, that leaves 9 for dragon, one every run. If it takes more than 9, well...

Edq 2: Use boosts as you wish through the trash. On boss keep perma PS and throw hammers or something, the total amount of time you hit her / efreeties is about 5 boosts worth.

And that's about it. Once again, this is my opinion and my experience, so this is why I think 5 minutes is accurate. Hell I'd say 2-3 minutes is a lot more accurate for raids, 4-5 is for epics. And for hard enounters we're talking 10-30 seconds.

[butlerfamilywa]

Editing Done.
WF Monk, Dark Path, ToD Fire IV Stance = 593. 88
WF Monk, Dark Path, ToD Wind IV Stance = 633.22

And Post #102 has all the calculations.

[Consumer]

I think your third chart has some interesting build selections and DPS numbers, good job!

[maddmatt70]

I'd like to throw in why I think 5 minutes are more accurate, imo. I take it we can both agree that someone who is after max dps, also likes to take the quests fast, hence why they go too all the trubble to get max dps in the first place.

Second of all we can both agree that the quests that matters, are the epic ones, and the raids.

Now, lets pull it up.
Evon 1: less than 5 minutes to first shrine, actually, more like 4 enocunters or so, so goes about 4-5 boosts in total. At the defend point one might lack in a mid dps group, but in a high dps group 8-10 boosts is more than enough.

Evon 2: Clean beholders, or split, clean the spiders then head for the bridge and rest once you get there, 1 boost per beholders, 1 on spider group. From that point it's less than 5 min, about 2 boosts in maze, and 1 at giant, = 7 left at last encounter.

Evon 3: Also a quick one, you can spam boost to kingdom come before the first shrine and rest once you've cleared the eles and the boss after the traped door. You'll use about 4-5 boost in the coming fights including the next boss if it's there. And then you'll be at the next shrine. Save it, or rest - depending on the group basically. Either way, you'll have enough for beholders, boss to the left after waterfall, cleaning all the trash, and depending on if you saved it till after bhs, for the bosses as well. Else just rest before the bosses and use 3 boosts on em, and have 7 for the marut - more than enough.

Evon 4: Not that commonly run, but with some standard pulling and good dps the boosts will be enough between the 2 shrines available.

Eoob: This one is less than 5 minutes between the shrines as well, though not if you can't open the first shrine.

EWK: Not that commonly run either, I don't run it for sure. But here's another place where you might have some problems with the 5 minute duration unless you've got a really dps heavy group - either way in this quest I see your point.

ECoF: You wont have enough boosts in this one, I agree - but there's really no incentive to run this quest except for a first time to check it out, imo.

Eadq 1: Also a tricky one, having enough boosts in this one will be close to impossible though if you do the classic pulling with a FS it's a lot easier. Not that you run it as a 6-man often though, this one is usually a solo farm for scrolls.

ESentinels: Most quests have a shrine when you need it, can't be bothered to go through em all, as they're barely run, and the shrines are a plenty.

Shroud: With 10 boosts you can perma PS and do a boost every 2 portals and still have enough for part 2 (1 on trash, 1 on bosses), and rest in part 3. Part 4 is about 3 boosts, part 5 is about 6-7 boosts, depending on dps.

Tod: Part 1 is about 5-6 boosts, part 2 is about 3-4, part 5 is about 5-8 depending if you do suulo. A rest between each part makes it easy.

Vod: Same deal, the total amount of time you hit suulo / orthons is far less than 5 minutes.

Evon6: 1 boost on djinns, that leaves 9 for dragon, one every run. If it takes more than 9, well...

Edq 2: Use boosts as you wish through the trash. On boss keep perma PS and throw hammers or something, the total amount of time you hit her / efreeties is about 5 boosts worth.

And that's about it. Once again, this is my opinion and my experience, so this is why I think 5 minutes is accurate. Hell I'd say 2-3 minutes is a lot more accurate for raids, 4-5 is for epics. And for hard enounters we're talking 10-30 seconds.

I applaud your arguments, but I have some disagreement with some of your facts and assumptions.

Von1 and 2: are to be honest a joke to any well geared experiended group however there is only one shrine in von1 so in reality a player could run out of boosts in there.

Von3: I do not like stopping for the first shrine as it is a waste of time so my preference is to hit the second and third shrines only on a melee and a player will run out of boosts in that instance.

Von4: shrines not an issue.

Wiz King: with 5 shrines not an issue and casters rule the quest anyway.

DQ1: This is actually a much more important quest then alot of players think. After having done over 300 DQ2 raids and seeing 2 bloodstone shards drop and 3 epic bow shards and 0 epic spell storing rings just to name a few of the outdoor area desert item shards and hearing feedback from others DQ1 appears to be the best place to get outdoor area desert shards. Obviously with only 1 shrine in the quest not 5 min.

COF: with the improvement in the ring of bahpomet and other COF gear I run this more regularly. Only 2 shrines in quest so not 5 min between shrines.

Offering of Blood: actually a player could run out of boosts here with only 2 shrines - it is most definitely not a shrine every 5 minutes.

Raids: Yes there are enough shrines in the DQ, Dragon, and Tower raids for boosts but 8 power surges or boosts is the minimum I would want for these raids. I have a 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 rogue who has 8 and at times just about runs out.

Newer Epics: I do not run the sentenial quests although I do run the update 5 epic quests on ocassion so this varies a little from quest to quest although there overall are alot of shrines in these. A small problem is a little limited on shrines.

[stormarcher]

I think your third chart has some interesting build selections and DPS numbers, good job!

haha

[thisgamesull]

So what happened to the Amazon build?,Looks like you took it off
Don't tell me I TR'd into a gimp

[stormarcher]

So what happened to the Amazon build?,Looks like you took it off
Don't tell me I TR'd into a gimp

I took it off because I calculated w/ khopesh. How ever I heard its a heavy pick build.

With khopesh your looking at 520 dps. Not to sure yet on Heavy picks

[stormarcher]

I would like to say that Blizt does more sustained Dps then Brute. The Brute Uses smites/divine Sacrifice. Even then it is only by 1 or more Dps

[Nick_RC]

Hey Man,

Just a few things I have noticed that might help getting the numbers straight.

1. I think GFunks list was great as it showed how a build performed at both optimal and not optimal settings. For example, a build like Prodigy while doing great DPS when not the main tank and against a FE is not optimal when it does have agro. Showing 2/3/4 scenarios per build probably explains it alot better. I.E

A. FE and backstab.
B. FE but no backstab
C. Non FE w/ Backstab
D. Non FE no backstab.

Seeing these breakpoints will put it in better perspective. Similarly with Paladins (Effectively an Uber FE) do great when Fighting Evil Outsiders/Undead (for the moment) but should also reflect against not those (Epic GH coming soon and Epic dragon etc.

2. Are you including quickdraw in the boosted builds?
3. How many minutes is this over? And i'm a little fuzzy on how you are calculating boosts. I.e 12 Ftr/18 Ftr/ 20 Ftr get how many included etc.

Just what I saw at a glance - again great work and look forward to seeing more results.

N

[stormarcher]

Hey Man,

Just a few things I have noticed that might help getting the numbers straight.

1. I think GFunks list was great as it showed how a build performed at both optimal and not optimal settings. For example, a build like Prodigy while doing great DPS when not the main tank and against a FE is not optimal when it does have agro. Showing 2/3/4 scenarios per build probably explains it alot better. I.E

A. FE and backstab.
B. FE but no backstab
C. Non FE w/ Backstab
D. Non FE no backstab.

Seeing these breakpoints will put it in better perspective. Similarly with Paladins (Effectively an Uber FE) do great when Fighting Evil Outsiders/Undead (for the moment) but should also reflect against not those (Epic GH coming soon and Epic dragon etc.

2. Are you including quickdraw in the boosted builds?
3. How many minutes is this over? And i'm a little fuzzy on how you are calculating boosts. I.e 12 Ftr/18 Ftr/ 20 Ftr get how many included etc.

Just what I saw at a glance - again great work and look forward to seeing more results.

N

1. Sounds good I'll make some graphs explaining just that
2. In Dps Chart 1 no. In Dps Chart 2 if the build has Quickdraw in build feat list then yes.
3. 5 minutes.

[grodon9999]

All Dps was taken from Dps Chart 2



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Pure 20 Fighter, Kensai III. Weapon Dps Comparison



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Stupid question, in the D-axe numbers, is this with a dwarf +2 damage enhancements? Same with the rapier/scimitars with elves?

[stormarcher]

Stupid question, in the D-axe numbers, is this with a dwarf +2 damage enhancements? Same with the rapier/scimitars with elves?

Yes

[grodon9999]

Yes

The D-Axe against 100% fort should do more than that compared to a heavy pick.

[Aaxeyu]

Pure 20 Fighter, Kensai III. Weapon Dps Comparison



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You should really recheck your numbers here:
Scimitars and rapiers should be equal.
Heavy pick is not higher DPS than khopesh.
Longswords and dwarven axe shoudl also be much lower.

Basicly, redo the whole thing.

[EinarMal]

I do not think you should include past life feats if you are comparing to pre re-incarnated builds. That Blitz build is essentially a direct copy of the Colossus build I posted except for 2 Rogue vs. 2 more barbarian and there is no way that is worth 77 DPS

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173631

Pretty much every build listed pre-reincarnate could have some 36 point re-incarnate version that is higher DPS.

[dragonlo]

wow you broke twf dps down so I could understand it... well done no small feat +1

[stormarcher]

You should really recheck your numbers here:
Scimitars and rapiers should be equal.
Heavy pick is not higher DPS than khopesh.
Longswords and dwarven axe shoudl also be much lower.

Basicly, redo the whole thing.

Scimitars/Rapiers are only off by about 3 Dps and are exactly the same on 100% fort.

Will re-check..

Longsword is already the lowest of the bunch, and Dwarven axes are right where they should be