Let rogues bypass raid boss fort or remove it entirely

[dmitric300]

As a rogue our damage is approximately 70% sneak attack or more depending on the build, as such we lose about 70% of our damage (before our own criticals) against a 100% fortification target and 35% of our damage against a 50% fortified raid boss.

On the other hand all other melee classes suffer MUCH less from fortified targets. In the extreme case a barbarian with IC slashing khopeshes (20% crit for times 4?) gets approximately 12 extra 'base attacks' per 20 swings which means that the absolute max DPS drop from a fortified target is about 37%, against a 50% fortified raid boss it is 18%. This is the extreme case, all other builds benefit much less from criticals. (their normal attacks are much better to begin with)

As a result rogues are effectively punished with crappy damage simply because the designers added a feature to bosses (that has no basis in pnp rules), we already have it bad as it is with d6 hitdice (when the barbarian mentioned above has d12) and lots of enemies can cleave/great cleave (I'm looking at you VoD red Orthons).

SOLUTION:

remove all partial fortification from raid bosses (and give them 20% more health to balance it out)
better yet: give rogues a line of enhancements to ignore 10/15/20/25% or more fortification from fortified targets, (a 20/30/40/50% line that costs 2/4/6/8 enhancement points would be nicer)

EDIT: Guys, if you want to make an attack my character thread feel free to stick that in general forums, otherwise the issue at hand is that raid boss fortification hurts rogues MUCH more than all other classes and with no justification.

[k1ngp1n]

Vehemently no.

/unsigned

[voodoogroves]

Precision damage already works on far more things than it does in normal 3.5 (both rogue and ranger favored) for free.

Suggestion:

I'd totally support feats (like in Complete Scoundrel) or PrCs (see the Minis Handbook) to allow situational bypassing of some/all fort based on creature type w/ reduced sneak damage.

[Visty]

In the extreme case a barbarian with IC slashing khopeshes (20% crit for times 4?) gets approximately 12 extra 'base attacks' per 20 swings which means that the absolute max DPS drop from a fortified target is about 37%, against a 50% fortified raid boss it is 18%. This is the extreme case, all other builds benefit much less from criticals.

crits going down from 500 to normal hits of 60 against 100% fort targets is more then the 36% you try to claim

[MsEricka]

Let rogues bypass raid boss fort or remove it entirely

No. If you have such a hard time doing damage then reroll so you can fix yourself. I know plenty of rogues that do very well in melee combat.

[dmitric300]

Out of curiosity what lost Immune Critical in DDO? http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/monsters.htm
this might help you.

My other point is that ddo stops being like dnd around level 7 if not earlier when balance gets thrown to the dogs and numbers become silly.

PCs always hit, monsters always hit (or else have stupid bonuses to hit thanks to all the hard to get AC gear out there), their casters can't be interrupted, ours can put a firewall on top of themselves....

Being a rogue at high levels is already hard enough given our crappy health and being forced to stay in melee range and being told that HP is your only defense. Well that is a failing on Turbine's part. In DnD AC/saves has and should always be your primary defense against being dead.

[Goldeneye]

That would make rogues crazy powerful. Fort and aggro are the only 2 reasons why rogues aren't THE highest dps always

[Rakian_Knight]

No. If you have such a hard time doing damage then reroll so you can fix yourself. I know plenty of rogues that do very well in melee combat.

And ranged thanks to mechanic PrE.

[dmitric300]

crits going down from 500 to normal hits of 60 against 100% fort targets is more then the 36% you try to claim

sigh, okay if you are using HEAVY PICKS with x 5 and 10% proc rate, in 20 swings you get 2 criticals that do 5 times normal damage (less since your masochism doesn't get multiplied as far as I know)

that means that you get an extra 8 effective hits in that 20 for 8/28 or 28% for 100% fortified targets
this drops to 14% for 50% fortified targets

EDIT: unless you crit 100% of the time in which case please tell me your secret
EDIT: sigh, math was right the first time, you get 28 attacks out for you normal 20 but you LOSE 8 attacks from that expected 28 so that's 8/28 = 28% loss

[Visty]

sigh, okay if you are using HEAVY PICKS with x 5 and 10% proc rate, in 20 swings you get 2 criticals that do 5 times normal damage (less since your masochism doesn't get multiplied as far as I know)

that means that you get an extra 8 effective hits in that 20 for 28/20 or 40% for 100% fortified targets
this drops to 20% for 50% fortified targets

EDIT: unless you crit 100% of the time in which case please tell me your secret

im talking about kopeshes with imp crit, where barbs crit 17-20/x3 19-20/x7

try again

[dmitric300]

im talking about kopeshes with imp crit, where barbs crit 17-20/x3 19-20/x7

try again

care to explain that +7? I just see +5

19-20 / x3 base
IC slash
Frenzied bezerker II
Frenzied bezerker III

17-20 / x5 base

=> 36/20 attacks, lose 16/36 => 44% against 100% fort, 22% against 50% fort

[Visty]

greataxes can reach x7 afaik, so peshs should too, both are x3 weapons

though it might be just +6 too, +1 from FB2, +1 from FB3 and +1 from deathfrenzy

anyway, its alot more then you try to show here

[DelverRootnose]

As a rogue our damage is approximately 70% sneak attack or more depending on the build, as such we lose about 70% of our damage (before our own criticals) against a 100% fortification target and 35% of our damage against a 50% fortified raid boss.

On the other hand all other melee classes suffer MUCH less from fortified targets. In the extreme case a barbarian with IC slashing khopeshes (20% crit for times 4?) gets approximately 12 extra 'base attacks' per 20 swings which means that the absolute max DPS drop from a fortified target is about 60%, against a 50% fortified raid boss it is 30%. This is the extreme case, all other builds benefit much less from criticals. (their normal attacks are much better to begin with)

As a result rogues are effectively punished with crappy damage simply because the designers added a feature to bosses (that has no basis in pnp rules), we already have it bad as it is with d6 hitdice (when the barbarian mentioned above has d12) and lots of enemies can cleave/great cleave (I'm looking at you VoD red Orthons).

SOLUTION:

remove all partial fortification from raid bosses (and give them 20% more health to balance it out)
better yet: give rogues a line of enhancements to ignore 10/15/20/25% or more fortification from fortified targets, (a 20/30/40/50% line that costs 2/4/6/8 enhancement points would be nicer)

EDIT: screwed up some numbers

...a monk and have them hit the boss with unbalancing strike.

[dmitric300]

...a monk and have them hit the boss with unbalancing strike.

the point is that rogues STILL suffer more than anyone else and there is no reason for the bosses to have fortification to begin with. Devils are not immune to crits, Demons are not immune to crits, Giants are not immune to crits.....

furthermore a rogue cannot splash monk to get it because the SAVE for the condition will be too low

[dkyle]

there is no reason for the bosses to have fortification to begin with.

Maybe they buy a moderate fort item on the AH? Raid bosses are notoriously stingy, so they don't spring for the heavy fort.

[dmitric300]

nah, they won't fit: I don't think that suumades can wear our heavy fort belt even as a bracelet

(It may fit his hand but it won't fit his style and he's all about the dramatics)

[Visty]

you can be lucky that they just have med fort and arent like in pnp

[dmitric300]

you can be lucky that they just have med fort and arent like in pnp

no one has yet to show me why a devil or demon would be immune to critical hits, I even linked the SRD page to make it easy for you guys.

[hydra_ex]

greataxes can reach x7 afaik, so peshs should too, both are x3 weapons

though it might be just +6 too, +1 from FB2, +1 from FB3 and +1 from deathfrenzy

anyway, its alot more then you try to show here

I think its +1 FB II, +1 FB III, +1 Death frenzy, for a total crit multiplier increase of +3. So khopeshes would be 17-18/*3, 19-20/*6.

Not that it makes a difference to your argument, though.

[hydra_ex]

no one has yet to show me why a devil or demon would be immune to critical hits, I even linked the SRD page to make it easy for you guys.

Easy. They're wearing magic items which grant them fortification. And they're special, so they're immune to dispel magic.