How important are Hide and Move Silently to Sneak Attack and Flanking?

[Mastese]

GOAL: To be able to maximize my DPS based on situational Sneak Attack and Flanking opportunities.

CHALLENGE: If Skill Points are at a premium for my build (assume low Int), can someone tell me how important ranks in Hide and Move Silently will play into Sneak Attack and Flanking effectiveness?

I may go Halfling (that's set) Rogue or possibly Monk to accomplish my goal. I don't want to debate the pros and cons of either class option. However, either way, I've seen lots of builds that are inclusive of full ranks of both skills and some that focus one and not the other.

What if I put no ranks in either skill? Would I still be able to enjoy the full benefits of sneak attack and flanking attacks? Would I totally gimp my build because the enemy would always be aware of my pressence? Are they absolutely necessary and to what point (opinion on minimum ranks for each)?

Thanks for you help in advance...

-Mastese

[Winter_storm]

I think thats right. Sneak attack only works when the monster has attention to a another party member or cannot detect you before your first hit. Your Move silently rolls against monsters listening skills and hide rolls against monsters spotting you. If you don't have this then you have to wait for a party member to aggro the monster then you attack. It would much harder to sneak up since they would hear (listen) or spot you in advance.

[hydra_ex]

Sneaking will play little to no part whatsoever.

There are two ways to sneak attack: Hide and then attack (one time thing) or let someone else have aggro. Sneaking doesn't help that much. Most of SA strategy lies in letting others get aggro. If you put 0 points into either, then you would be just as effective combat-wise than any other rogue. However, you have a ton of skill points anyway, and sneaking occasionally comes in useful.

As a side note, of the two, MS is more important than hide, because all the benefits of hide can be substituted by you UMDing invisibility scrolls.

[Tuney]

But invis won't work on everything while hide can bypass monsters able to see invis. But I should add there is a buff to Hide but not move silently.

Probbly top 3 reasons to get them 1) Want to solo and not agro mobs, 2) want to use assassinate , 3) Flavor!

[Mastese]

Thanks for the great input so far guys. A couple other questions...

Does the effectiveness of Hide depend on checks against the Enemy's Spot skill? If so, how does this work and is there a widely accepted value (much like spell DC's and Rogue mechanical skills) that equates to consistently high rates of success in hiding (based on adventure difficulty or enemy level)?

Does the effectiveness of Move Silently depend on checks against the Enemy's Listening skill? If so, how does this work and is there a widely accepted value (as above) that equates to consistently high rates of success in Moving Silently (based on adventure difficulty or enemy level)?

Natural Sneak Attacks (ones initiated by successfully sneaking up behind or alongside an enemy) seem to be fairly underwhelming due to the exceptionally reduced (slow motion) attack chain animations. Is it truely worthwhile to consider this as a standard operating attack in and of itself (apart from Rogue Assassination or Monk TOD/Stunning Fist attempts)?

[hydra_ex]

Natural Sneak Attacks (ones initiated by successfully sneaking up behind or alongside an enemy) seem to be fairly underwhelming due to the exceptionally reduced (slow motion) attack chain animations. Is it truely worthwhile to consider this as a standard operating attack in and of itself (apart from Rogue Assassination or Monk TOD/Stunning Fist attempts)?

In the vast majority of groups, its utterly useless.

[MrCow]

Does the effectiveness of Hide depend on checks against the Enemy's Spot skill? If so, how does this work and is there a widely accepted value (much like spell DC's and Rogue mechanical skills) that equates to consistently high rates of success in hiding (based on adventure difficulty or enemy level)?

Does the effectiveness of Move Silently depend on checks against the Enemy's Listening skill? If so, how does this work and is there a widely accepted value (as above) that equates to consistently high rates of success in Moving Silently (based on adventure difficulty or enemy level)?

In general, you want a skill of 5 + (Quest Base Level * 1.5) on Normal for things like Move Silently, Hide, and Spot to be of use to you. Add somewhere between 3 to 5 for Hard and somewhere between 7 to 12 for Elite. On Epic you want 53 or higher, depending on the particular quest.

[dbspaceoditty]

well if you want do focus on DPS and sneak attacks i would go assassin prereq, and in order to get those you need a few hide/move silently in order to get those ranks.

also, as a rogue you get enough points to invest in most of your skills. DD/UMD/UL/balance are your most important skills and as a rogue even with very little INT i think you could max those out at every level...the move silently/hide bonus isnt something you need. but would be useful.

DD should always be maxed, if you dont you wont be able too use high lvl weapons(at least none with good abilitys)

i love rogues. also, STR is NOT a dump stat. i halfings suffer -2. i would suggest wood elf my self. because you can get longsword/rapier and scimitar attack/damage bonus as you lvl. which will bring your DPS higher in the long run.

but if you want too TWF khopesh(for max DPS) i would suggest using human or dwarf. seeing as how dwarf get extra CON and suffer CHA (i think, i know they get extra CON) which will give you more HP and the +3 mod easier and get an extra 2 stats in STR or DEX or INT...also with balance bonus you wont get knocked down as much so you wont die as much

[Talon_Moonshadow]

As long as you don't have agro, you can get SA damage.

Hide and MS are simply a tool you can use at times to help you not have agro.

In a group, they are not very important for getting SA damage at all. Simply make sure someone else gets agro first.

Simply being in sneak mode when the group gets within sight range of the monsters will usually make sure they agro on someone else first...reguardless of your skills in Hide/MS.

But there are many other ways too...UMD Invis scrolls, or just make sure you are not the first guy in the room.

Diplomacy can be a great skill for getting SA damage in a group.

Bluff can also be used, but it is inferior to Diplomacy in most cases...except soloing, where Diplomacy is of little value. (making a monster agro on someone else, is meaningless if no one else is around.)



All of that said though, Hide/MS can be a very powerful weapon in your arsenal. Especially for an Assassin.

[QuantumEntanglement]

I've wondered about a few things, having really gotten back into the game primarily because of discovery of the whole stealth and/or stealth wizardry play style. For one, can you diplo aggro when solo onto your summoned minions? Or hirelings (evil laugh)?

Also, are the boosts to the stealth skills from rangers camoflage and from shadow walk different types than invis? As such, do they stack? And can monsters with true seeing see through either of those?

Perhaps I ought to throw in the same questions about the wraith form of pale master's bonuses to stealth skills. Thanks for any help.

Oh heck with it, I'll go for the full hat trick. Is there any buff or condition that can make you not tremor such that creatures like spiders and oozes can sense you as you move?

[RobinofSpiritwood]

[QUOTE=QuantumEntanglement;3147117]I've wondered about a few things, having really gotten back into the game primarily because of discovery of the whole stealth and/or stealth wizardry play style. For one, can you diplo aggro when solo onto your summoned minions? Or hirelings (evil laugh)?

[QUOTE]

Yes

That tactic permits SA usage to a greater degree, and is effective when solo/with hireling

[RobinofSpiritwood]

Being stealthed is a different state to being invisible, and is preferable generally as many enemies can see invisible.
Bonuses to stealth skills all apply to stealthing, as one would expect, but only MS assists when invisible. Notably, you have to stealth whilst invisible to use that skill though.

If you max the stealth skills at creation, and toss a mere 2 points in per level, you can sneak past pretty much any level appropriate things in game, way more than that with gear. UMD DD OL MS H Search Spot add up to just 7 points investment per level, plenty of space to throw in Jump Tumble or Balance as you like as spot and OL need not be maxed.

If there is a way to get past spiders, I would like to hear about it too. Diplo doesnt work on them either.

[QuantumEntanglement]

I searched the DDO wiki. Here's all I found. Ranger camoflage spell gives a +10 "circumstance" bonus to hide skill. It also claimed the mass camoflage spell stacks with it, though it listed that spell's +10 bonus to hide as a circumstance bonus also. If true, it means they are like dodge bonuses to AC, that is, the exception to the general rule of same type of bonuses not stacking.

I found shadow walk with a search (it is not listed in the alphabetical listing of spells for wiz/sorc, though it is in the by spell school and level listing). It only claims that you are "harder to see". I would assume this is a bonus to the hide skill, but cannot confirm that. It's like I had heard before that invisibility is a +20 bonus to hide. But I've never understood how that figures given that invisibility actually keeps you from being seen even when not in stealth mode, the exception being monsters with true seeing. I have always assumed that this meant a +20 bonus to hide while stealthing and invisible. Again, I don't know what type of bonus it would be.

As for pale master II's wraith form, the wiki only says a +20 bonus to move silently, not the type of this bonus.

And shadow walk doesn't even state a specific bonus to hide in the wiki. It merely states that until you attack or use anything like a lever that would cause invisibility to break too, that you are "harder to see".

I was hoping some of the knowledgeable who may've tested these things such as Mr. Cow might know what types of bonuses these are and how and where they stack. Basically the information one would need to calculate say a theoretical maximum buffed/altered state hide and move silently score. I know such maxes are not all that necessary if you are a high dex char and max the skills since there are "useful" maxes that are probably a lot lower, but knowing what alternate sources you may use could be invaluable to a stealth character.

[richieelias27]

Being stealthed is a different state to being invisible, and is preferable generally as many enemies can see invisible.

The amount of enemies in the game that can "see invisibility" below quest level 14ish are very few and far between. Even beyond that level there are many areas where invisibility will allow you to easily run past entire portions of a quest.

Bonuses to stealth skills all apply to stealthing, as one would expect, but only MS assists when invisible. Notably, you have to stealth whilst invisible to use that skill though.

Yes you do need to be in stealth mode to remain completely undetected (and use your move silently skill), however, you do NOT need to be stealthed while invisible in order to benefit from the spell. You can still simply run past things with invisibility on while they follow you in their VERY slow "search mode" allowing you to easily outrun them.

If there is a way to get past spiders, I would like to hear about it too. Diplo doesnt work on them either.

Things with Tremorsense are a bit more common (spiders, slimes, oozes) and no form of stealth will work against them. They are also unintelligent, so things such as diplomacy and intimidate will not work.

[QuantumEntanglement]

Another thing, while there is no way to avoid the tremorsense critters detecting you (no levitate spell in game), they do have an activation radius. If you know about how far that is, there are some situations where you can sneak around them. Technically I guess, you aren't sneaking by them though, merely staying out of range.

And can anyone confirm that the traits of the undead form you take as a palemaster does include being undetected by those undead with lifesense?

[Noctus]

How important are Hide and Move Silently to Sneak Attack and Flanking?

Totally irrelevant.


Both effects are not based on Stealth, but on position and who´s having aggro.

[Truga]

If you're like me and like sneaking up on beholders and 1hit killing them with assassinate, with little to zero risk to the entire party, you'll love sneaking skills. Also, disarming traps while not being seen sometimes helps.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I searched the DDO wiki. Here's all I found. Ranger camoflage spell gives a +10 "circumstance" bonus to hide skill. It also claimed the mass camoflage spell stacks with it, though it listed that spell's +10 bonus to hide as a circumstance bonus also. If true, it means they are like dodge bonuses to AC, that is, the exception to the general rule of same type of bonuses not stacking.

I found shadow walk with a search (it is not listed in the alphabetical listing of spells for wiz/sorc, though it is in the by spell school and level listing). It only claims that you are "harder to see". I would assume this is a bonus to the hide skill, but cannot confirm that. It's like I had heard before that invisibility is a +20 bonus to hide. But I've never understood how that figures given that invisibility actually keeps you from being seen even when not in stealth mode, the exception being monsters with true seeing. I have always assumed that this meant a +20 bonus to hide while stealthing and invisible. Again, I don't know what type of bonus it would be.

As for pale master II's wraith form, the wiki only says a +20 bonus to move silently, not the type of this bonus.

And shadow walk doesn't even state a specific bonus to hide in the wiki. It merely states that until you attack or use anything like a lever that would cause invisibility to break too, that you are "harder to see".

I was hoping some of the knowledgeable who may've tested these things such as Mr. Cow might know what types of bonuses these are and how and where they stack. Basically the information one would need to calculate say a theoretical maximum buffed/altered state hide and move silently score. I know such maxes are not all that necessary if you are a high dex char and max the skills since there are "useful" maxes that are probably a lot lower, but knowing what alternate sources you may use could be invaluable to a stealth character.

I believe that P&P D&D rules say: Dodge bonuses and most circumstance bonuses stack.

This is a case where I think those two spalls should not be considered "most" for stacking purposes. But maybe the code for the game does not recognise this.