TWF or THF barb?

[Truga]

I want to make a new pure barb, but I can't decide on my weapons. I'm trying to decide between THF for great axe goodness or TWF for whacking stuff with dual heavy picks.

Now, as far as I could test, THF is much better than TWF in the early stages of the game because double PA bonus to damage means I 1hit all trash mobs up to level 5 or so. TWF is also very horrible since update 5 at low levels (i.e. without greater twf).

At higher level, dual heavy picks seems like a good idea though. Coupled with critical rage and high attack speed it seems like it could do a lot of damage. Anyone has any experience with this? Any arguments to what makes THF good/better at higher levels?

[eulogy098]

critical rage is not longer in the game. if you dont already have it, you can not get it.


Over all i think barbarians are better off with THF, as im not very impressed with Heavy Picks across the board (colossal suck on Fort targets, no +10 stunning on picks so you wont be stunning much for auto crits, and 0 quality epic options) and barbs have too few feats to spend one on an Exotic Weapon. The exception being dwarf, whom can TWF with barb with the most success due to free exotic and enhancements that benefit TWF slightly more than THF (dwarven axes are an excellent weapon on both high and low fort targets).


all that said, There is nothing wrong with a TWF WF using Picks, its just not as optimized as i tend to like things. WF Power Attack benefits THF more than TWF by a larger margin than i think you assume. +6 damage vs +3 and for a low to moderately geared player, -3 attack bonus on THF is meaningless but -3attack bonus while TWF will likely mean getting some misses in epics.

[Chai]

WF will have 5 less to hit then a dwarf using axes in either situation. -3 more for PA and dwarf can get +2 for axes, so its a 5 point swing for a dwarf with the same gear.

I think either TWF or THF is a good choice for a barbarian. I would still use THF even with no feats to back it until getting GTWF as the lower offhand proc rate sucks without all three feats.

[Truga]

critical rage is not longer in the game. if you dont already have it, you can not get it.

Oh okay... Thanks for this. No reason to go picks then, really. Thought it was too good to be true.

@Chai, I'm not really worried to much about to hit. I should have a ridiculous amount of STR by end game... And if I do miss some, I can always temp turn off PA, or take one or two enhancements less.

Time to delete a barbarian :V

[bunitchu]

well, i dunno if normal D&D mechanics work here as well as in the pnp, but if they made at least this much following the book, with THF you should get 1,5 times your str mod added to dmg

with a barb, who can easily pull 58 to 60 str when raged+berseked and properly geared, thf could give you +30 dmg asides PA that adds 10 to it, and +10 from SoS, or +5 from a normal +5 weapon, making damage circle around 45 to 50 JUST from the PA + str mod + wep enchant....and for dices you add +4d6 from greater vicious from final frenzy + whatever elements you have on your weapon+ the very weapon dice roll, and +6 to PA if ur WF...so yep, each swing from u wil hurt like hell, while on twf, as mentioned b4, PA will hurt you the most.

if mehanics on the thf are like the pnp dungeons and dragons, i say that barbs benefit more rom the THF for their dmg output, if not...not sure

[Reos]

Isn't the Barb endcap aimed solely at greatweapon fighting?

[Truga]

well, i dunno if normal D&D mechanics work here as well as in the pnp, but if they made at least this much following the book, with THF you should get 1,5 times your str mod added to dmg

with a barb, who can easily pull 58 to 60 str when raged+berseked and properly geared, thf could give you +30 dmg asides PA that adds 10 to it, and +10 from SoS, or +5 from a normal +5 weapon, making damage circle around 45 to 50 JUST from the PA + str mod + wep enchant....and for dices you add +4d6 from greater vicious from final frenzy + whatever elements you have on your weapon+ the very weapon dice roll, and +6 to PA if ur WF...so yep, each swing from u wil hurt like hell, while on twf, as mentioned b4, PA will hurt you the most.

if mehanics on the thf are like the pnp dungeons and dragons, i say that barbs benefit more rom the THF for their dmg output, if not...not sure

Yeah I decided to go THF in the end due to this. Also, PA is actually +11, 5 from PA, 3 from barbarian enhancements and 3 from warforged enhacements. That makes it a total of +22 damage on 2h weapons, which is bloody awesome.

[eulogy098]

Isn't the Barb endcap aimed solely at greatweapon fighting?

The barbarian capstone does absolutely nothing but give +2 to Strength. All the other stuff in the description is non functional.

[BlackSteel]

dual picks will do more damage on stunned mobs than any other weapon choice you could be using. and as a barbarian, you'll actually be able to stun a vast majority of monsters w/o even using a weighted weapon.

i like THF alot, but with the recent changes I just dont see it being competitive, sure a geared character and great player can make it work, but those same things will excel even more with TWF. atleast until THF is revisited; which is in the works, BUT I dont see glancing blows while moving being re-enabled, otherwise why remove it to start with.

just about to start the final life on my multiple PL barbarian (barb PL, and multiple fighter PL's) with the added bonus of the fighter PL to hit, he'll use khopeshes on bosses w/o the proficiency feat, and a heavy/light pick combo for epic trash. Stun DC is in the high 40s, w/o a weighted weapon or a silly titan cookie/glove clicky. ~500k left on the final fighter PL, so should be back in barbarian land next week. Funny part is, as I collected the fighter PL's as an archon build, he pretty much played exactly like a barbarian anyway with the help of the barbarian active past life feat.

[Therigar]

A couple years in the past the idea of dual wielding heavy picks was all the rage. That has given way to dual wielding khopeshes based on simple math. The weapons of choice have been defined fairly well as greensteel and a greensteel khopesh does 1d10 base damage vs the 1d8 for a greensteel heavy pick.

Trash mobs are never a serious concern but comparing weapons of equal burst capabilities, equal base + numbers and used with equal STR and damage modifiers easily shows that khopesh is the best possible weapon if you choose to go TWF. The changes in the TWF line aside, dual wielding khopeshes seems to be the highest DPS available.

What has never been fully answered, AFAIK, is if THF with glancing blow calculated in actually delivers equivalent damage at end game. What happens in early and mid game should not impact your decision.

If you are going to play a dwarf then dwarven axe comes close to matching khopesh and is superior against heavy fort (as occurs on end bosses on various difficulty levels at the higher end of the game). If you are going warforged the various warforged enhancements to THF might make that a better choice. Again, AFAIK, there hasn't been a definitive analysis.

Hoping that I'm wrong on this last part and that someone posts the link.

[BlackSteel]

A couple years in the past the idea of dual wielding heavy picks was all the rage. That has given way to dual wielding khopeshes based on simple math. The weapons of choice have been defined fairly well as greensteel and a greensteel khopesh does 1d10 base damage vs the 1d8 for a greensteel heavy pick.

Trash mobs are never a serious concern but comparing weapons of equal burst capabilities, equal base + numbers and used with equal STR and damage modifiers easily shows that khopesh is the best possible weapon if you choose to go TWF. The changes in the TWF line aside, dual wielding khopeshes seems to be the highest DPS available.

What has never been fully answered, AFAIK, is if THF with glancing blow calculated in actually delivers equivalent damage at end game. What happens in early and mid game should not impact your decision.

If you are going to play a dwarf then dwarven axe comes close to matching khopesh and is superior against heavy fort (as occurs on end bosses on various difficulty levels at the higher end of the game). If you are going warforged the various warforged enhancements to THF might make that a better choice. Again, AFAIK, there hasn't been a definitive analysis.

Hoping that I'm wrong on this last part and that someone posts the link.

unless you're a fighter, theres no reason to be stuck with one particular type of weapon. you can easily use khopeshes for red/purple named monsters, and picks for trash

[Truga]

Frankly, main problem I have currrently with TWF is the stat distribution. I don't want to spend too much on it, so it will need 16 dex and a +1 tome. 16 dex on a WF or dwarf is 10 build points. Build points that can't be put into con/wis instead. And the fact that khopesh needs a feat, which I don't really have.

Also is the dps diff really that noticable between THF and TWF?

[mediocresurgeon]

Go TWF. THF is broken as of Update 5. TWF is likely to stay better for destroying Epic Trash even after the Devs fix THF, anyway.

[Truga]

What are the chances of pulling a +3 dex tome before hitting level 15? I could go with 18/14/16/8/10/6 if this is plausible. I'd rather not have less than 10 wis, will save is hard to come by as it is..

Edit: for picks to work, I also obviously need stunning blow. What feat to drop for it? Toughness?

Edit2: what about starting with 16 str? Does that work, or will it gimp it too much?

[Symar-FangofLloth]

What are the chances of pulling a +3 dex tome before hitting level 15?

Practically 0.
They drop from Reaver's Fate (not sure if the difficulty matters, but it's really rare), Hound on Hard/Elite, Vision on Hard/Elite, and 20th completions on Shroud.
Those are your only hopes at that level, and they're all raids. And with the exception of Reaver's, you're on the low to minimum level to do them.

[Truga]

I think I'll stay 2HF for now, surely it can't be THAT bad

I'll think about TWF once I hit 20 with it. Prolly much easier to build this with 34 or 36 point build..

[eulogy098]

unless you're a fighter, theres no reason to be stuck with one particular type of weapon. you can easily use khopeshes for red/purple named monsters, and picks for trash

Improved Critical is one reason, what are the odds someone has four min2 weapons?

[ArichValtrahn]

Go THF so you dont need to put points into Dex. Skip GTHF since you dont get glancing blows while moving anymore. Splash 2fighter for extra feats since the barb capstone doesnt give an attack speed boost anymore.

[eulogy098]

If you dont take GTHF you dont need the extra fighter feats. stay pure.

[BlackSteel]

Improved Critical is one reason, what are the odds someone has four min2 weapons?

Y would u take improved crit on a weapon set that's only used for stunned or held monsters? U can easily swap over to slashing or min2 for bosses