Starting a Pally: tanking Q's.

[Oathbound]

Hello fellow pallys.

I just started this game a couple weeks ago, and was thinking of rolling a paladin to eventually tank stuff. I got done reading Junt's guide, and some of the posts on these forums. I still however have some questions. Mostly because I haven't seen any REAL need for tanking in this game yet - But I'd like to have that option open to me in end game.

Right now I'm looking at a 32pt build human. I want to go THF for dps, and thinking of putting most all of my skill points into intim. These are my base stats I am looking at:

Strength           16                
Dexterity          10                
Constitution       16                
Intelligence        8                
Wisdom              8                
Charisma           16

So here are my questions:

1.) Are there any stats/feats that are absolutely needed for me to be a tank (besides tower shields and combat expertise)? Will I need to look at grabbing primarily avoidance/mitigation feats for end game tanking? Or can I go primarily dps talents with the idea that this is where most of my threat generation will come from?

2.) Is my 10 Dex going to be a problem for tanking? Or should I try to find a way to get that stat to 12 for dodge?

3.) It was mentioned a couple times in Junt's article that Paladins looking to tank end game would need to spend months on the needed gear for raid tanking just to get the needed AC. I am used to farming for gear, but I am wondering what AC I should be shooting for once I do hit end game?

4.) I don't think I quite understand Pally prestige classes. What is the importance of going Knight of the Chalice vs. Defender later in the game? Is it a huge deal if I want to tank vs. dps?

5.) Is there a good resource on DDO tanking and mechanics? So far I've been pouring over the forums and DDO wiki - and I *think* I have an idea of what to expect for later on in game...


Thanks in advance for all of your help.

[AylinIsAwesome]

So here are my questions:

1.) Are there any stats/feats that are absolutely needed for me to be a tank (besides tower shields and combat expertise)? Will I need to look at grabbing primarily avoidance/mitigation feats for end game tanking? Or can I go primarily dps talents with the idea that this is where most of my threat generation will come from?

As far as I know, hate from the Defender PrE is currently broken. There is a clickie for +100% hate for 60 seconds which does work though.

Ideally I would suggest having both Hate and Intim as options, so that you can Hate tank those things you can, and Intim things if your Hate isn't high enough to keep aggro.

I highly recommend splashing 2 Fighter in (at first level and perhaps 9th or 10th level), as that gives you three feats (Tower Shield + 2 of your choice). I know Junts' build took metamagics to improve self-healing, and perhaps you could look at his build.

2.) Is my 10 Dex going to be a problem for tanking? Or should I try to find a way to get that stat to 12 for dodge?

Dodge is only 1 AC worth, so not getting it isn't a huge deal (though it is nice to have). The DEX you should start with at minimum would be the DEX that allows you to max out Fullplate with a +6 DEX item and a +2 DEX tome.

3.) It was mentioned a couple times in Junt's article that Paladins looking to tank end game would need to spend months on the needed gear for raid tanking just to get the needed AC. I am used to farming for gear, but I am wondering what AC I should be shooting for once I do hit end game?

I believe the general rule is "4x your current level". I've seen tanks get to 84ish, though I can't remember off the top of my head how they did that.

4.) I don't think I quite understand Pally prestige classes. What is the importance of going Knight of the Chalice vs. Defender later in the game? Is it a huge deal if I want to tank vs. dps?

KotC: +7d6 (with ToD set) to evil outsiders (most raid bosses are this)
DoS: Bonuses to AC and the defensive stance
HotD: Healing Amp and level drain immunity


Most people ignore HotD though.

5.) Is there a good resource on DDO tanking and mechanics? So far I've been pouring over the forums and DDO wiki - and I *think* I have an idea of what to expect for later on in game...

Maybe? I don't know...

Thanks in advance for all of your help.

You're welcome.

[thoryndar]

Coming from a Level 20, Human, DoS III Paladin with AC focus, who raids at end game:

1.) Are there any stats/feats that are absolutely needed for me to be a tank (besides tower shields and combat expertise)? Will I need to look at grabbing primarily avoidance/mitigation feats for end game tanking? Or can I go primarily dps talents with the idea that this is where most of my threat generation will come from?

If you are going to go KotC, I wouldn't spend the feat on Tower Shields. if you are going to go DoS, its a requirement, so the question is do you wanna DPS (KotC) or be last man standing (DoS)?

2.) Is my 10 Dex going to be a problem for tanking? Or should I try to find a way to get that stat to 12 for dodge?

I wanted an AC focused build, and I didn't even take dodge. Above poster said it right though - you want the highest dex bonus allowed, and bear in mind the DoS gets +2 or 3 to that stat

3.) It was mentioned a couple times in Junt's article that Paladins looking to tank end game would need to spend months on the needed gear for raid tanking just to get the needed AC. I am used to farming for gear, but I am wondering what AC I should be shooting for once I do hit end game?

80 is a good number to shoot for, but as you will find out the more you play, AC is becoming less and less useful. Sad story, but a true one.

4.) I don't think I quite understand Pally prestige classes. What is the importance of going Knight of the Chalice vs. Defender later in the game? Is it a huge deal if I want to tank vs. dps?

At end game, you are going to be fighting demons, and devils, a lot. KotC does incredibly great damage against them, even fighting 1 handed. DoS is your more typical "give me everything you have, and I'll take it smiling, with HP to spare."

5.) Is there a good resource on DDO tanking and mechanics? So far I've been pouring over the forums and DDO wiki - and I *think* I have an idea of what to expect for later on in game...

Divine Righteousness is your best friend.

BTW, Intim is a cross-class skill, meaning unless you splash fighter in the mix, you will NEVER get it as high as you hope. To me, the skill points are better used in Balance or Jump, in that circumstance.

[emptysands]

80 is a good number to shoot for, but as you will find out the more you play, AC is becoming less and less useful. Sad story, but a true one.

That's not entirely true, but gearing a AC build is very hard.

[nitronisto]

sorry late to the party but to answer ur first question about feats : bull head and intimidate feats will help boost ur intimidate also if u take fighter LOSE THE TOWER SHEILD PROF FEAT BEFOR TAKIN FIGHTER THEY GET IT AS A GIVEN

yes splash a lv of fighter in earrly at like lv 2 no later then 5ish, reason is because palies only get a half a lv of intimidate per lv vs fighter who gets a full lv of intimidate per lv same time most builds do 2 lvs of fighter, also make sure u have min 13 int but invest in a +1 int tome so u get 14 that gives u a extra pt to spend per lv on skills

tankin is very usefull higher on in both group and in raids, examples are VoD HOX and Shroud phase 4 and yes in 5 it can still work with high enough intimidate, group wise BoP GS and other higher content groups were u get alot of mobs balled up it makes quick work of the mobs when casters can burn them down

AC is important later on cause the higher it is the harder of a time a mob has to hit u example my pali tank is lv 20 ok gear not finished yet and 28 pt build but has 48 standing ac self buffs to 61 raid buffs to 69sh and thats all without sheild block, add the sheild block and i am well into 70's and at that point dmg is very little i take more caster dmg then melee,

DoS stance is given as a pali tank, like stated i find it appears to be broken for the hate % increase but the rewords of what it does out weigh that 120%, incrase attck power, hp, ac , saves , i mean its a flat out win win, like stated later on u fight demons and **** so make a holy/ pure good metaline GS wep and cut through them that way
hope this helps educate u some on how to build ur tank. but keep in mind a good build is only 30% of the puzzle the other 70% is how well u play it and know the fights

[ArloOne]

12 Commas, and 1 period...priceless!

[KKDragonLord]

You wont be tanking anything with THF (in the AC department)

a Tower shield adds +9 to AC, the attack range of the game is 2-19, which means without a shield you will at best be on the bottom half of that range, and if you consider that there are many other bonuses to defense from stats and feats, you won't even get there.

IMO, you should make your character a normal DPS THF pally and when you get to end game, you will know all the equipment that is necessary to be a high AC tank, might even farm for all of those in advance and then reincarnate into a full AC intimitank build, that will at best, be effective for most content except for elite high level raids and Epics.

[Oathbound]

IMO, you should make your character a normal DPS THF pally and when you get to end game, you will know all the equipment that is necessary to be a high AC tank, might even farm for all of those in advance and then reincarnate into a full AC intimitank build, that will at best, be effective for most content except for elite high level raids and Epics.

I think this is the way I am going to go. It doesn't sound like I'll need to have a dedicated tanking build until later levels anyways - when I can just buy a reincarnate and reallocate my feats. Thanks for all the responses guys. These forums have been a great help for me to understand some of the game mechanics.

[AylinIsAwesome]

I think this is the way I am going to go. It doesn't sound like I'll need to have a dedicated tanking build until later levels anyways - when I can just buy a reincarnate and reallocate my feats. Thanks for all the responses guys. These forums have been a great help for me to understand some of the game mechanics.

If you're splashing Fighter, I suggest taking Fighter at level 1. You can get a better Jump score and max Intim easier that way.

[Oathbound]

A couple more tanking questions....

1.) I've been doing some more reading and have seen a bit about Paladins being better suited as hate tanks (using smite evil and such for their damage/threat generation). Is this more viable as I would not be able to max out intim like a fighter can? Would a shield / high AC still be useful in such a build?

2.) I've seen conflicting information about using diplomacy in a raid environment. Specifically in conjunction with a Intim-based fighter. Is this a valid strat or just being bad?

[jmonty]

Coming from a Level 20, Human, DoS III Paladin with AC focus, who raids at end game:

1.) Are there any stats/feats that are absolutely needed for me to be a tank (besides tower shields and combat expertise)? Will I need to look at grabbing primarily avoidance/mitigation feats for end game tanking? Or can I go primarily dps talents with the idea that this is where most of my threat generation will come from?

If you are going to go KotC, I wouldn't spend the feat on Tower Shields. if you are going to go DoS, its a requirement, so the question is do you wanna DPS (KotC) or be last man standing (DoS)?

2.) Is my 10 Dex going to be a problem for tanking? Or should I try to find a way to get that stat to 12 for dodge?

I wanted an AC focused build, and I didn't even take dodge. Above poster said it right though - you want the highest dex bonus allowed, and bear in mind the DoS gets +2 or 3 to that stat

3.) It was mentioned a couple times in Junt's article that Paladins looking to tank end game would need to spend months on the needed gear for raid tanking just to get the needed AC. I am used to farming for gear, but I am wondering what AC I should be shooting for once I do hit end game?

80 is a good number to shoot for, but as you will find out the more you play, AC is becoming less and less useful. Sad story, but a true one.

4.) I don't think I quite understand Pally prestige classes. What is the importance of going Knight of the Chalice vs. Defender later in the game? Is it a huge deal if I want to tank vs. dps?

At end game, you are going to be fighting demons, and devils, a lot. KotC does incredibly great damage against them, even fighting 1 handed. DoS is your more typical "give me everything you have, and I'll take it smiling, with HP to spare."

5.) Is there a good resource on DDO tanking and mechanics? So far I've been pouring over the forums and DDO wiki - and I *think* I have an idea of what to expect for later on in game...

Divine Righteousness is your best friend.

BTW, Intim is a cross-class skill, meaning unless you splash fighter in the mix, you will NEVER get it as high as you hope. To me, the skill points are better used in Balance or Jump, in that circumstance.

i second all this. especially i do not like dodge, which might cause some 'lols'

i would add that 18 pally/ 1 fighter/1 rogue is a good split for a pally tank. you cant get enough intim to matter on epic but i got can intim vod on hard with no feats after getting a shroud cha item. my suggestion is to start with rogue, take umd, intim and keep them maxed as you level. no diplo, at the very least, but the other skill that is good is jump, or perhaps balance.. also, take the twf line. that would take a min of 15 dex with a +2 tome, and makes stat distribution more difficult.

what sucks about this build is that the potential ac or intim is not good enough for epic, but everything else is great. the hp is not soo great as a back up but it can get over 500. the intim is not really enough for alot of elite quests, and intim in general is not the be all end all ability.

where this type of build shines is the umd and solo-ability. it kills slow when in turtle mode, but quicker when twf, especially on mobs that are vorpalable. generally you can tank up, kill, then heal up rather quickly. the LOHs are a good insurance for no fail, rather strong heals. hirelings make soloing even easier.

it can take a long time to get all the raid gear you want but it is worth it.

[jmonty]

As far as I know, hate from the Defender PrE is currently broken. There is a clickie for +100% hate for 60 seconds which does work though.

bummer.. i hadn't heard that but i hadn't tried hate tanking often or read much about it lately. ><

[Quikster]

bummer.. i hadn't heard that but i hadn't tried hate tanking often or read much about it lately. ><

Im not sure all hate is broken. Im fairly sure the passive hate tier II earns is working, as is the hate from the tod set. I know the hate clickie works. Its mostly the hate from the stances that people question. Palys still make great hate tanks, you just cant have totally gimp'd dps.