Guild Renown awards

[Barazon]

That's always possible and why we appreciate the feedback.

When you run quests at level, you have a 20% chance of finding renown in chests. For every level you're above the quest level, that chance is reduced by 4%. So if you're 3 levels over, you're looking at an 8% chance to find renown.

What about if you're running quests above your level? Is there a corresponding 4% per level increase if the quest is above your current level? This would make sense in the 'renown' system: quests below your level do not make you famous, but doing a quest 3-4 levels above your own certainly should!

[knightgf]

Decided to try something. I had a thought in my mind, "What if I ran a quest underlevel? Would I get more chances at renown from kills for doing it?"

So immediately I decided to try soloing Stormcleve Outpost on my level 5 Sorcerer.

Long story short, I wiped 3 times before I called it quits. But it doesn't matter anyways, I collected my share of data as needed. The total data I got as fallows:

1,008 renown total:

Chests:
5 total
1 with deeds
1 with trophy

Kills:
168 kills total
2 kills, 9 renown each.

In conclusion, while the chest data is inconclusive because only 5 total were opened, I can conclude that there is NO BONUS to your % chance of renown from kills if you decide to suddenly run a quest 3 levels below you. Matter of fact, it kinda makes me wonder if I get a penalty on renown just for doing that...168 kills and out of all of them, 2 had renown(Interestingly enough, smashing magefire cannon parts gave me renown...if thats the case, why not make it so that breaking crates and barrels gives you renown?)

Its pretty sad, really...I ran a normal waterworks group with a level 6 and got a LOT more renown from kills than I did with that quest...and I only killed a fraction of the monsters in any given quest of the waterworks series.

Here's a pic to conclude:

[Arel]

I realize that you probably have your own system for deciding how to change the rates, but as a suggestion...

1. Figure out when you expect an average guild (~30 accounts, based on where your small guild cuttoff is) to reach certain milestones in Guild Level, namely the Airships and/or every 10 levels. ie 2 weeks for first airship, 1 month after that for second, a season for third... whatever you feel suitable.

2. Find a cross-section of active guilds that are at or around this average and observe the rate at which their renown increases. Find average increase per day and compare it to value from above

3. Adjust the rate of renown dropping / decay (or get rid of decay... please?) until most of these guilds are within tolerance of your expectations.

4. Adjust small guild bonuses till smaller guilds are close to average guilds in progress.

Obviously this will take some time for data collection with each new iteration you try, but it'll eventually end up with a system where an average or small guild can have a reasonable expectation of how long it will take them to reach a certain level of renown without excessive grinding. Obviously, large/super-large guilds like the two high-level guilds on Khyber and Orion will progress at a much faster rate, but those guilds are more concerned about the buffs at high guild levels rather than any sort of cohesion.

[wemery73]

......one of many bugs in update 5 .....

moorlands and Lamannia joke servers to many bugs going live

[Rumbaar]

That was a surprise, an artifact of some unusual use of our quest system by a designer some time ago.

I'm not sure from your response, but is that WAI?

I know I got a 150 renown token from my 1750 Drow +2 Tome list [have screenshot]. Of course who would take a renown token?

Also someone got a similar experience with their RAID 20th run, and it was only a 50 point reward.

These were all pre Update 1 though.

[Impaqt]

I'm not sure from your response, but is that WAI?

I know I got a 150 renown token from my 1750 Drow +2 Tome list [have screenshot]. Of course who would take a renown token?

Also someone got a similar experience with their RAID 20th run, and it was only a 50 point reward.

These were all pre Update 1 though.

Renown has an independant chance to show up on reward lists. So yeah, it probobly is...

And I have a few characters I would take the renown on from my 1750 +2 Tome list... Toons thaty have already eaten 6 +2 Tomes.... Why would I take another one?

[Solmage]

it does mean you can turn antique desert tokens in for something useful

Garth

You know, since you bring that up, being able to turn in a large number of these tokens for a partial list of all non-raid desert named items would be nice...

[Tomalon]

Im sure this has been stated. but. As of right now i have not seen any renown for end rewards! Period! lvl Appropriate or not. Since the update!

[Rumbaar]

Renown has an independant chance to show up on reward lists. So yeah, it probobly is...

And I have a few characters I would take the renown on from my 1750 +2 Tome list... Toons thaty have already eaten 6 +2 Tomes.... Why would I take another one?

Did you see the comment my quote from MadFloyd was directed too? It seems not as intended, or at least for key reward turn ins.

As for not taking +2 Tomes, I guess you are not planing on TRing that character and you've eaten an equivalent number of tomes then it would be viable to take a respectable renown token.

[Impaqt]

Did you see the comment my quote from MadFloyd was directed too? It seems not as intended, or at least for key reward turn ins.

As for not taking +2 Tomes, I guess you are not planing on TRing that character and you've eaten an equivalent number of tomes then it would be viable to take a respectable renown token.

Regardless, its not effecting your reward list other than adding an option.

[Rumbaar]

Regardless, its not effecting your reward list other than adding an option.

True but if not WAI, then maybe greater renown tokens can be guaranteed in those situations.

[Kambuk]

Warded chests should be 100% drop for renown then scaled for level/difficulty

i.e. if you do Von6 on normal with you 20's everyone will still get al least 50 each.
If you do epic everyone will still get at least 50 each but much more lilkey a
lot more.

You can only do raids every 3 days, you should always get something from them otherwise your always better off zerging low level quests on lowbies solo which defeats the purpose of being in a guild really....

If you do a quick full guild run of say the reaver you will get at least 600 favour for the guild.

Might get people off zerging lowbies and actually playing the game together....

Kambuk

[GlorkTheInvader]

True but if not WAI, then maybe greater renown tokens can be guaranteed in those situations.

I do think it'd be a nice thing to keep in the game, although I'm not sure how I feel about "greater renown." I know that I've made Stealer of Souls runs with guildies just to help them work on their Sovereigns, and I had no need whatsoever for the 50 Draconic Runes at the end. I know that pre-Patch, I could get renown rewards out of that "list," and it's nice to be able to get something useful out of a quest you would otherwise never have much reason to run.

But on the other hand, I don't think you could make a renown reward big enough for me to take it over something like a Skiver. It doesn't seem worth the time or effort.

[Barazon]

I'm not sure from your response, but is that WAI?

I know I got a 150 renown token from my 1750 Drow +2 Tome list [have screenshot]. Of course who would take a renown token?

Also someone got a similar experience with their RAID 20th run, and it was only a 50 point reward.

These were all pre Update 1 though.

Please make sure that, when renown is offered as an end reward, that it is in addition to all other choices, not replacing one of them. This is most important for raid 20th completions. I would hate to have the equivalent of "Sorry, but instead of this Torc of Prince Raiyum-de II, how about a nice 50 renown token?"

(Edits below, since I had more ideas as soon as I hit submit)

About end rewards, please have it remember the difficulty for which you are being rewarded. For instance, doing The Plane of Night on Epic currently gives rewards for a level 10 quest, not level 20. Implementing this would also make it possible to give renown as an end reward which is appropriate to what was just done. This is also especially relevant for Devil Assault, which is level 6/12/18, not 6/7/8.

Also, if you are going to base renown end rewards on the length of a quest, please review the stated length of quests to make sure that they match reality. Some stated quest lengths have never been correct, others have become incorrect due to changes (dungeon alert, doors added, etc).

[sirgog]

Also, if you are going to base renown end rewards on the length of a quest, please review the stated length of quests to make sure that they match reality. Some stated quest lengths have never been correct, others have become incorrect due to changes (dungeon alert, doors added, etc).

Quest difficulties as well. Some quests (Enter the Kobold, Taming the Flames, Stealer of Souls, Tomb of the Blighted, Proof is in the Poison) are far harder than any other quests remotely near their levels. They should award more renown. Some are far easier than indicated too (most of Gianthold for example).

[UndyingLord]

Not quite sure what the issue is here. There's more renown in the game now, not less (unless you're way above quest level). Perhaps you can give a little more detail here in terms of the character level compared to the quest.

You can run the same quest like Delera on Elite with level 10 characters and you are getting 50% to 75% less renown. And let me add that I had 3 other guild mates running with me to see if the drop rates ran on a different level 10 and they too got much less renown and you always got at least 1 or 2 tokens in the 3 chests of Thrall of the Necro ch2, but everyone got zero or 1 heroic.

My guild was averaging 20 to 30 k renown every 24hours and now we have come to a crawl.

You can also look at all the guilds on the leaderboards and see a DRAMATIC change in renown rates http://my.ddo.com/leaderboard/guild/...sc=xp&sd=d&w=1

You guys really threw out the anchors.

[RTN]

Your observation is correct. End Rewards are not working correctly. Not only are they not showing up most of the time, but when they do show up, they're overly stingy.

Sigh. This will be fixed soon.

Thanks for sharing so much info with us, MadFloyd. While I'm sure the bugs in the system are frustrating for you, I (and I'm sure most everyone else) really appreciate you being so responsive and open about this.

[Vanshilar]

I think one of the things that's sort of missing in this discussion is what kind of a guild Turbine -- or you, as a player -- feels should lead at the top of the leaderboards. That probably should be a thread of its own, rather than the current posts of basically guild renown drops less and we don't like it.

Let's face it. With the introduction of the renown system, there is now a quantitative way to rank different guilds. Large or small, early game/casual or endgame/epics, etc. all have a score attached to them with the connotation of prestige, worthiness, etc.

Unfortunately, such a system can't please everyone. How the different formulas that Turbine sets regarding the different ways to gain renown (monster kills, chests, end rewards) vary with character level and quest level/difficulty will determine which methods of achieving renown are optimal and hence, the type of guilds that will succeed at this ranking system. For example, a few days before patch 1, I got around to favor-hunting with one of my level 20's to get 1750 favor for a +2 con tome. Imagine my surprise when I found that a level 20 doing harbor quests -- bringing the light, kobold's new ringleader, etc. -- had a very high rate of giving renown as the end reward (around 70% over roughly 30 completions), not to mention renown from the chests in those quests as well. Given the speed (in terms of chest/minute ratio and end reward/minute ratio) of these quests compared to the later-level quests, it should be no surprise that the leaderboards are largely dominated by high-member count, low-character level guilds. These are simply the rules of the system -- and the guilds that fit those rules are the ones that will succeed under the renown system. I think most of the powergamer guilds would've gotten more renown if they simply did a process of create veteran toon, pass carnifex over, do korthos/harbor quests, delete and repeat rather than trying to tackle anything that's actually challenging. Of course, this was addressed in the patch.

Unfortunately if renown is to mean what it intuitively means, then it should actually be tied to that which would garner renown. I don't see how a high-level character doing harbor quests should get much renown; it would be equivalent to the Lakers bragging about how they beat the local high-school basketball team. I would encourage those who are complaining about not getting renown out of korthos/harbor quests to sit back and consider if what they're doing is really considered prestigious in the real world. Yeah, yeah, I know, this isn't the real world. But the renown system serves an analogous concept as that in the real world -- seeds in tennis for example. The Olympics would be much less watched if the people that performed and made it to the podium were average off-the-street folks -- not that there's anything wrong with those folks, but they don't particularly fit to a system of prestige.

After the patch, I logged on a lowbie (level 4), and to my disappointment, found that I got renown from 6 out of 9 chests in the kobold ringleader's quest (that was when I ransacked them because I already did the quest a few times pre-patch). Gaining around 300 renown in the span of 10 minutes for doing harbor quests seems much too high -- when you get roughly the same rate of renown from doing epic quests, with much less risk of death and/or resource (mana pots) consumption. Admittedly somewhat a low sample size, but I think in considering the drop rates for chests and end reward by level, Turbine should really consider them in terms of renown/hour rather than in terms of renown/chest. End-game quests tend to be longer and more involved than most of what you find in the harbor. If it ends up that the lower-level quests give better renown/hour than later-level quests (and epics), then the renown system devolves into rewarding those guilds that simply do lower-level quests.

If it were me, the chance of renown showing up would go something along the lines of say 2% per level of the quest.

I notice this to. Except when I drop one account from my guild (lv 10) of 4 down to 3 accts the bonus renown bonus drop down to (50 base + 60 small guild bonus). When I had 4 accts it was 50 base + 70 small guild bonus.

I covered how the small guild renown thing works here:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=262164

To note is that the bonus increases until you have 6 accounts, and then the bonus (per account) decreases thereafter, although the overall guild renown pulling ability will continue to increase. Unfortunately, under the current system it establishes a "dead zone" in the 20-30 account range where renown pulling power is actually less than if the guild had less than 20 accounts or if the guild had more than 30 accounts.

I seemed to have the opposite happen after the patch yesterday...

Last night:
New guild + new characters (Veteran Status) + 2 hours of play (Korthos, Information, Ring Leader and WW) = Guild Level 6

It seemed that between the 4 of us, someone was always getting either Heroic Deeds, Tales of Valor (and even 1 Trophy) in almost every chest; and most got something as an End Reward choice as well.

Perhaps it's working too well on lower levels and not so hot on upper ones?

I would guess it's just a matter of those who don't see as much renown as before coming onto the forums and complaining, whereas those that didn't notice much of a change (or those noticing an increase) would likely not post on the forums. Although I think that not seeing renown as part of the end reward is an actual problem, because it's nowhere near the 50-100% figure. Go to apartmentratings.com (as I recently did when apartment-hunting) and you'll start thinking that everywhere around the country is filled with moldy cockroach-infested apartments and uncaring landlords, due to the number of negative reviews compared with the positive ones -- then consider how bad the apartment you live in really is.

[UndyingLord]

Your observation is correct. End Rewards are not working correctly. Not only are they not showing up most of the time, but when they do show up, they're overly stingy.

Sigh. This will be fixed soon.

Just ran 4 quest in inspired and we had like 2 tokens of 50 drop per quest.

I've note seen anything over 150 in over 4 hrs of play.

Man we need a life preserver tossed out to us before we drown.

[Zaodan]

That's always possible and why we appreciate the feedback.

When you run quests at level, you have a 20% chance of finding renown in chests. For every level you're above the quest level, that chance is reduced by 4%. So if you're 3 levels over, you're looking at an 8% chance to find renown.

MadFloyd,
what if the quest is higher level than you are?

i.e. I'm level 5, quest is level 6. Does it go 24%? I mean, it **** well better if you are creating a system of Risk vs Reward here. (and you are).

In fact, I would suggest that its +8% for every level you're UNDER the quest.