2 rog/12 barb/6 x, what should x be?

[basketaske]

Title about describes my initial problem. I'm true reincarnating my 2 rogue/6 ranger/12 fighter, which I very much like. He's only 28 point though, so I really do want him to get some ability point love. He's made for DPS and, had I followed the build I had planned from the start, he would have had high UMD and some trap skills. I didn't, because I didn't think before I chose, but he still does decent DPS imo.

tl:dr: see bottom

With the changes to tempest, I'm contemplating swapping the ranger part for fighter. Here's where I lose my footing though, as I don't see what exactly the strengths of each of the classes are. I get the basics, with ram's might or kensai I, but that's about it. I gather I need to sort this stuff out, before I can really start up the character planner and get moving. He'll be using dwarven axes and he has +6 stat items, but that about covers the gear list. I mainly just want to hit stuff in the face, hard and fast and I am just about settled on 2 rogue and 12 barb, but if that's a uber crappy way to go, I'm open to suggestions.

34 points to distribute and even here I get doubts and "what if's". I do want to max str and and believe I will acquire +1 and +2 ToD rings at some point, to even the score after +5 from level ups. Don't have a +3 tome waiting for me and with my luck, outlook is bleak on that, but I have a +2 str tome banked. Dex is settled, with a +2 tome so I can get me some GTWF and then it gets interesting. I want/need to get to at least 20 UMD asap, without gimping him along the way and so I'm thinking I need INT for the skillpoints and CHA for the UMD. Another point where I'm a big questionmark.

This is most likely not how I'm going to distribute the stats, but if +2 tomes could settle the INT and CHA score problems, I'm all for it. Again, advice will be deeply appreciated.
STR: 18
DEX: 15
CON: 18
INT: 8
WIS: 8
CHA: 6

I'll keep going/building along with the advice I hopefully recieve. As it stands now, I need to decide on what 6 levels to swap ranger for and settle the initial stats distribution. I really want to do it right this time. After that's done, I might be able to figure out in what order to take each of the classes. Rogue levels at 1st and 15th, afaik, to max UMD, depending on my INT score. By now you've probably realized I'm all but clueless and in dire need of guidance.

tl:dr: Is ranger still viable for 2 rog/12 barb/6 ranger, what should it be swapped with and how do I distribute 34 points if I want high DPS, UMD and some trap skills?

[Symar-FangofLloth]

tl:dr: Is ranger still viable for 2 rog/12 barb/6 ranger, what should it be swapped with and how do I distribute 34 points if I want high DPS, UMD and some trap skills?

If you're TWF and wish to remain so, then yes.
However, I would recommend dropping Tempest1, and spending those three feats on something else. Tempest lost it's front-loaded awesome, but is still a good PrE when taken all the way.



Fighter would give you 4 more feats, not counting the three you're freeing up from Tempest, but you'd have to spend two on TWF/ITWF, and you lose any ranged bonuses (which I don't know if you care about anyway, but that will eat another 3-4 feats). You'll also get a lot less skill points, making a rogue splash that much harder. Kensai 1 is +1 boosts, +1 DCs, +1 intim/bluff/diplo, and then with your specific weapon type you get +1 to hit and damage, and +2 seeker (confirm and damage on crits).

[Aschbart]

Hm, never played high level Bbn before (just levelling one, currently 7 straight Bbn), but I did check on various alternatives before rolling mine, considering stopping points at 6, 12, 18 or 20. I found that stopping at 6 might be good if you add Fighter Kensai II for power surge, but otherwise I cannot think of any good combo that would beat a straight Bbn on DPS. Stopping at 12 doesn't seem to be a good point at all, and I got to that result even before U5, when Tempest I was still quite good for a level 6 melee splash. Now, after U5, even ranger will not make up for the loss from taking only FB II instead of FB III. The only useful side effects from taking ranger would be the synergy with rogue skills, and access to Ram's Might. But Frenzied Berserker III would still be considerably better DPS.

That said, it depends on who much importance you put on rogue skills and versatility: Ranger 6 would add search and spot as class skills, that would tremendously help your skills. Adding more rogue levels would also be an option: 7 levels get you a lot of extra sneak DPS and sufficient skill points to max out any relevant skill. Of course, the hard part would be to actually use that sneak damage without immediately pulling aggro . Other classes wouldn't fit your goals, really.

Su ultimately, I'd go with Rog 2 / Bbn 18, Rog 7 / Bbn 12 / Rgr 1, or with Rog 2 / Bbn 12 / Rgr 6 - depending on your focus.

[Aschbart]

P.S., here's a Ftr 12 / Bbn 6 / Rog 2 build I discussed on another forum. Never got around to actually try it:

Level 20 Neutral Good Dwarf Male
(12 Fighter / 6 Barbarian / 2 Rogue)
Hit Points: 326
Spell Points: 0

BAB: 19/19/24/29/29
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 12
Will: 8

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 24
Dexterity 16 17
Constitution 16 16
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 10 10
Charisma 6 6

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 9

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 7 12
Bluff -2 0
Concentration 3 3
Diplomacy -2 -2
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -2 -2
Heal 0 0
Hide 7 7
Intimidate -2 -2
Jump 7 15
Listen 0 0
Move Silently 7 7
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 -1
Search -1 1
Spot 4 4
Swim 3 7
Tumble 7 7
Use Magic Device 2 21

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons

Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 4 (Fighter)

Level 5 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons

Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Iron Will

Level 7 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack

Level 8 (Rogue)

Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave

Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 11 (Fighter)

Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons

Level 13 (Fighter)

Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons

Level 15 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons

Level 16 (Barbarian)

Level 17 (Barbarian)

Level 18 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting

Level 19 (Barbarian)

Level 20 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost IV
Enhanncement: Barbarian Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Reduction Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack II
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage II
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I
Enhancement: Kensei Dwarven Waraxe Mastery I
Enhancement: Kensei Dwarven Waraxe Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II
Enhancement: Fighter Dwarven Waraxe Specialization I
Enhancement: Fighter Flanking Mastery I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Required Equipment:
+1 or better Tome of Dexterity needed before ITWF

Starting at 28 points, I decided to got with Str 16, but with 34 points you can of course make that an 18. As you can see I didn't use rogue levels for traps and locks, just for UMD. Fitting in Open Lock wouldn't be hard as you don't need a lot of ranks, really, but if you want to go for traps, you'd need much more Int. The fighter levels pretty much block out any advanced trapspringing, unfortunately.

[basketaske]

Thanks for the advice so far, I hadn't even considered just dropping Tempest, ranger was really synonymous with that to me. I do believe that's the route I'll be taking actually, ranger without tempest, to save me the feats. I can't say 18 barb doesn't look nice as well though, but I have another barb I'm slowly getting up, so I'll see where he takes me.

All that's left now is for me to figure out what levels to get when, to max UMD and trapping. I could have been a lot more useful, had I followed the right build and not just my own craving for DPS. So this time around, I'll be slightly more focused on some trapping and maybe even a little wand healing. So ranger will do me good when all is said and done. I gather from your replies, that I'll have no skillpoint-shortage with ranger, so I'm going to stick with the 8 INT for now, as I plot all this into the planner (+2 tome if needed). Again, advice is most welcome.


2 rogue / 6 ranger / 12 barbarian
Race: Dwarf
Alignment: True Neutral

18 Str + 2 tome + 6 item + 5 levels + 3 exceptional = 34
15 Dex + 2 tome + 5 item = 22
18 Con + 2 tome + 6 item = 26
8 Int + 2 tome = 10
8 Wis + 6 item = 14
6 Cha

Now, my next issue, is wether or not there's an optimal way to go about the level progression, apart from the second rogue level to be quite late, to use UMD being a class skill, as much as possible. Without Tempest playing in, the 6 ranger levels aren't as important to get done, even though I still want TWF asap of course. Plus, with search and spot being class skills, do I want to wait a little with those levels too, to make the most of the skillpoints?

Thus far, I'm looking at this:
Level 1 Rogue
Level 2-3 Barbarian
Level 4-9 Ranger
Level 10-13 Barbarian
Level 14 Rogue
Level 15-20 Barbarian

Disable Device 19
Open Lock 11
Search 14
Spot 12
Use Magic Device 20

Still have a few days before reincarnation I think, again, advice is welcome. There's bound to be something to be improved upon, I'm still learning, a lot. As far as this guy goes, I'm getting there now, thanks for the advice

Skill ranks by levels

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Barbarian)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)


Level 3 (Barbarian)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 4 (Ranger)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+3)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead


Level 5 (Ranger)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 6 (Ranger)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1.5)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 7 (Ranger)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1.5)


Level 8 (Ranger)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider


Level 9 (Ranger)
Skill: Disable Device (+1.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 10 (Barbarian)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)


Level 11 (Barbarian)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)


Level 12 (Barbarian)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave


Level 13 (Barbarian)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)


Level 14 (Rogue)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+6)


Level 15 (Barbarian)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1.5)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Barbarian)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 17 (Barbarian)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 18 (Barbarian)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow


Level 19 (Barbarian)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Barbarian)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Thus far, I'm looking at this:
Level 1 Rogue
Level 2-3 Barbarian
Level 4-9 Ranger
Level 10-13 Barbarian
Level 14 Rogue
Level 15-20 Barbarian

That level order sounds alright.
You need to keep Search and Disable maxed. Spot can suffer if you know where the traps are, and Open Lock doesn't need to be maxed (Although I still max it on my rogues; an item isn't really needed though).
I'd definitely get a +2 int tome as soon as I can, just to be on the safe side. Maybe delay the second rogue level a little more if you can live without Evasion that long.
Personally I'd shoot for Ranger6 as early as I can, but delaying it will help with your skills as well.

[SEMPER]

some feat selection u could think about

These u have and i say are a good choice or needed for your Pre's :

power attack
toughness
Gtwf
Cleave
Improved Crit Slash

These ones not so sure why but whatever :

stunning blow ~ meh ok i guess some other feats u could take instead

weapon focus ~ ? are u going to have a hard time hitting ? not sure the +1 is worth it

Now for u dropping tempest ~ feats wise its great because it opens up 3 more feats for u to be flexible with but imho that extra 10% on the offhand is nice as well as not having the negative to hit while moving but not a must.....

Now instead of ranger u could either go 6 fighter for more feats and Kensai 1 or u could just go 18Barb/2Rogue and be pretty much the same build u are now just without the 2 Favored Enemies,Manyshot and Rams Might just something to think about

Now other feats u could think about :

Otwf ~ if your worried about your to hit just like the weapon focus then this will help

Umd Focus ~ with your rogue/barb levels and this your umd will be great and will be able to use any scroll that u want like a heal scroll

for your int and cha being low i wouldnt worry about them to much u will still have plenty of skill points with the rogue/barb levels and if u have a +6 cha skills item and a cha item your umd will be fine as well

hope some of this helps

[supp3nhuhn]

I gather from your replies, that I'll have no skillpoint-shortage with ranger, so I'm going to stick with the 8 INT for now, as I plot all this into the planner (+2 tome if needed)

I'd seriously reconsider going with 8 int if you want to be able to do traps.
You need maxed search and dd, if you also want umd then thats 6 sp for barb levels, 5 for ranger and 3 for rogue.
With 8 int you get 3 per barb level, 5 per ranger level and 7 per rogue level so the 12 barb levels will put you 36 points behind of which you only get back 10 for the rogue levels.
That means you need at least 12 int to be able to cap the basics which would still leave you very low on open and spot.

I would suggest going thf 18/2 split and put the points from dex into int and eat a +1 tome asap.
Barbs synergize very well with rogue as they get uncanny dodge and trapsave feats/enhancements.

Another option would be to go as you planned but ditch 2 points of strength and put those into int.
The -1 damage and to-hit is hardly noticeable whereas not blowing up every trap (if you actually find the box) is rather helpfull.

Half assed trapskills are worse then no trapskills.

[GhoulsTouch]

Fighter with Paladin
Ranger with Barbarian
________________________
Fighter with Barbarian isn't very self sufficient which most multiclasses try to be, unless you are shooting for just UMD in cross classing rogue skills.

[basketaske]

Digesting the new posts now. About the weapon focus, I couldn't really find another useful feat to pick at the time and I meant to go back and change it, while fiddling with skillpoints and level splits, so it's just a little blunder.

Reduced STR and increased INT, reset all skillpoints, swapped weapon focus for powerattack and now debating either SF: UMD or OTWF for lvl 6. I shall debate this while I eat and then redistribute skillpoints again and the few stats points I have left over. Thanks for the replies

[wax_on_wax_off]

why not drop the ranger, boost up your int a bit and go 18 barb to get frenzy III?

DPS wise frenzy III > ranger 6.

Everything you get out of ranger (except ranged combat) can be replaced with starting with 14 intelligence (easy to do on a TR) and that UMD that you want to get up.

Human barbarian with 14 intelligence gets 7 skill points/level. Search, disable and UMD takes 6 of those. At level 7 you can eat a +2 int tome to give you some more skill points.

If you want a majority barbarian multiclassed character i would skip fighter (kensai I is rubbish, kensai II is where the fun is at), ranger (tempest I is rubbish now, tempest II is where it's at), perhaps more rogue is an option? Rogue scales well with all that extra sneak attack damage but you'll miss out on assassinate or rogue special abilities if you want Frenzy II. Don't even consider a minor in a spellcasting class.

[SEMPER]

honestly i wouldnt change your int i mean if u plan on being the the trap disabler at higher lvls sure but imho its not a necessity i'd mainly concentrate on Umd first , Open lock and then I'd go Disable and Search then if u have points left over then put them into spot , besides new quests most know where the traps are so all u really need to do is search for them but this wont be your primary purpose anyway so like i said i wouldnt worry about it too much

again i hope this helps

[GhoulsTouch]

12 Ranger Tempest II/ 6 Rogue Assassin I/ 2 Paladin

2 rogue levels alone wouldn't be called for with a strong ranger presence in your build you would only need one so might as well shoot for prestige. Only if your base was fighter or barbarian would you go two for evasion.

[basketaske]

Right, having consumed dinner and a little white wine, I'm now almost completely settled on what I want to do. I've tried to consider all the advice, keeping trap skills alive, but not priority 1 and still not giving up a massive amount of DPS. I feel confident this build will work now. For straight up DPS, I'll either use my pure barb, or try the 2 rogue/ 18 barb, after getting FBIII on the pure barb. He's THF though, so there's still room for a 3rd toon, being Dwarf with an axe in each hand.

Primary skills
Balance 11
Disable Device 22
Jump 9
Open Lock 9
Search 22
Spot 3
Use Magic Device 17

Feats:
Toughness
Power Attack
Oversized TWF
Improved Critical: Slashing
Cleave
Greater TWF
Stunning Blow

Skills and feats by level

[/COLOR]
Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Barbarian)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)


Level 3 (Barbarian)
Skill: Open Lock (+1.5)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 4 (Ranger)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+3)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead


Level 5 (Ranger)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 6 (Ranger)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


Level 7 (Ranger)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 8 (Ranger)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1.5)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider


Level 9 (Ranger)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 10 (Barbarian)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 11 (Barbarian)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 12 (Barbarian)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave


Level 13 (Barbarian)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 14 (Rogue)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+8)


Level 15 (Barbarian)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Barbarian)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 17 (Barbarian)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 18 (Barbarian)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow


Level 19 (Barbarian)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Barbarian)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)

Slightly tipsy, I may have made a mistake or two somewhere, but currently I think this is where I'm going to go. Yes, I'd like to try 2 rog/18 barb or something with a little more rogue for sneak attack bonus, but currently I'm mainly just rebuilding this guy to work. At this point, I'm feeling confident that there's no monumental flaw, in the build itself at least, but please do chime in if I'm wrong, it's not unlikely.

Semper, what would you exchange Stunning Blow for? With Dwarf enhancements, I should get a bit higher than I was DC wise, so it will be helpful with 2 +10 stun clubs, but probably not on epic, we'll see. Still open to suggestions though

[redraider]

The 6x should be Barb. Death frenzy at lvl 18 with the +1 crit multiplier is the bomb.

Otherwise the Ftr12/6 Barb actually works better.

[SEMPER]

Semper, what would you exchange Stunning Blow for? With Dwarf enhancements, I should get a bit higher than I was DC wise, so it will be helpful with 2 +10 stun clubs, but probably not on epic, we'll see. Still open to suggestions though

then just try it out u can always switch it out if it doesnt land as much as u would like , doesnt hurt to test stuff

[Tulsa_Doom]

My main for many years now (that sounds odd) has been a previously 17/3 Barb/Rogue now 18/2 Barb/Rogue. If you can stomach not having rogue skills (traps) you can have great dps with FB III and good UMD and lock picking skills.

[supp3nhuhn]

I have a 14 barb/ 2 rogue that is going to be 18/2 and all i had to pay for full trap skills and umd was not maxing strength, which is quite negligible imo, and digesting a tome.
I think its better then 18 wiz / 2 rogue simply because the drawbacks are so minor and you have loads of synergy, ie haste boost, evasion and trapsense versus roughly 5% less damage per swing.