Monk is easy-mode

[Seliana]

I just HAD to respond to this! Have you ever actually PLAYED a Monk? Reading your comments lead me to believe you have not. Have you ever leveled a character to 20? Again, my gut says no.

Yes actually, I have played a monk all the way to level 20. I played my monk through every raid in game and even in epic content as well. What I listed are my impressions of the class in the 3 roles I have had mine in. During my several months as a monk in DDO I have built a dark path pure dps with no ac and all strength type, lesser reincarnated that into an all AC dex and wisdom build, and then lesser reincarnated that into a balanced build of both ac and dps. I spent time and effort gearing out each incarnation for each of the three roles I played my monk in. I then sat and watched multiple other classes outperform me in both aspects of the game for each of those roles. I watched capped barbarians run around with an epic sos critting for 700's every few seconds, I also watched intimitank paladins and fighters take no damage on raid bosses where as I could not come close to having decent AC vs raid trash mobs. They did this while making very few sacrifices for these abilities as well. Both sides outperformed the monk class with twice the hp as well as more damage or more ac, for equal or less effort then what the monk needs to put in, all while spending less action points and resources to do it.

This conclusion wasn't due to a lack of research either, I spent months on the forums reading and searching out different types of builds that could possibly do something useful with the class, I would acquire the gear all of the other forum posters would use, building for the stats and abilities other players recommended. Please don't assume this is a lack of game mechanics knowledge, exaggeration, or other fluff. I've been playing D&D since 2nd edition, and I have DM'ed 3rd edition for 10+ years. I know what class balance is when I see it, and I just don't see it here. Not to bring casters into the discussion but I also don't feel wizards and sorcerers are balanced either. Some classes have incredible major advantages over others in DDO without any reasonable or comparable disadvantages to make up for it.

If you don't believe I've done all of this with a monk, go myddo my character Invalid on Cannith. I worked very hard trying to make something decent of the monk class or find some aspect in which it performed well in endgame content.

When that failed I went and true reincarnated my monk into a cleric.

[Maegin]

Yes actually, I have played a monk all the way to level 20. I played my monk through every raid in game and even in epic content as well. What I listed are my impressions of the class in the 3 roles I have had mine in. During my several months as a monk in DDO I have built a dark path pure dps with no ac and all strength type, lesser reincarnated that into an all AC dex and wisdom build, and then lesser reincarnated that into a balanced build of both ac and dps. I spent time and effort gearing out each incarnation for each of the three roles I played my monk in. I then sat and watched multiple other classes outperform me in both aspects of the game for each of those roles. I watched capped barbarians run around with an epic sos critting for 700's every few seconds, I also watched intimitank paladins and fighters take no damage on raid bosses where as I could not come close to having decent AC vs raid trash mobs. They did this while making very few sacrifices for these abilities as well. Both sides outperformed the monk class with twice the hp as well as more damage or more ac, for equal or less effort then what the monk needs to put in, all while spending less action points and resources to do it.

This conclusion wasn't due to a lack of research either, I spent months on the forums reading and searching out different types of builds that could possibly do something useful with the class, I would acquire the gear all of the other forum posters would use, building for the stats and abilities other players recommended. Please don't assume this is a lack of game mechanics knowledge, exaggeration, or other fluff. I've been playing D&D since 2nd edition, and I have DM'ed 3rd edition for 10+ years. I know what class balance is when I see it, and I just don't see it here. Not to bring casters into the discussion but I also don't feel wizards and sorcerers are balanced either. Some classes have incredible major advantages over others in DDO without any reasonable or comparable disadvantages to make up for it.

If you don't believe I've done all of this with a monk, go myddo my character Invalid on Cannith. I worked very hard trying to make something decent of the monk class or find some aspect in which it performed well in endgame content.

When that failed I went and true reincarnated my monk into a cleric.

Hm... interesting.

Well, thats definately good food for thougth. I'm glad to see someones point of view from this angle. I too feel there is some truth behinde it all. But monks, like my favorite class bard, are just that. Support. The days of pajama wearing super ac guys out-doing the fighters and paladins with full plate and tower shield are gone when the ranger/monk splash came into full power, showing how deadly/not-right it was. Monks, having to rely on mobility, are just that. Sure they get AC, but nothing thats ment to stand there and take hits, thats the fighter and paladins job/role. Monks, like bards, do best when setting things up for the kill, i.e. stunning fist/light water finisher/ etc, for the classes that have a sole purpose to do so, i.e. your barbs and dpsers. Sure they can hold their own to an extent, but wearing no armor, really stresses being mobile. Sure, your toons AC on his character sheet reads 68, but thats not to say you can't, oh idk, be flanking or not have aggro to have to worry about it. (easier said than done, but look at it, the whole class is full of options for setting things up, or resist being set up)

To the guy defending the monk, I say your doing it wrong. You cannot compare, as sel has discovered, monk to another class since its apples to oranges. Monk's arnt barbarians. Monk's arn't ac fighters/pallys. Monk's arnt super nuke damage (hence tod timer), monk's arn't bards (hence bonuses to attack sure, but bards are wanted for bonuses to damage), Monk's arn't rogues (all fancy/mobile like a rogue, but can't replace him) etc. etc. etc. Monk's are monk's (it its most redundant state). Now you know what monks arn't, so now you figure out what monks are. Monk's, imho, can in one way be defined as a 'specialist- specializing in advantage by situation, not direct action. Build accordingly.

[Aeneas]

Remember teh Monkfish?

His tail looks delicious.

[Thechemicals]

Discuss

Monks are overpowered and this is being kept quiet by players. It is a boring experience to watch a monk quest with you from levels 8-12, they pretty much kill everything, save against all things, and can take multiple attacks from mobs.

The 2 most extreme situations i have seen so far were a monk in a dungeon 1 level higher than him on hard(he was 10) standing in a trap that he endlessly successfully saved while fighting 4 creatures and killing them all under 6-10 seconds and taking less than 5 dmg.

The 2nd was even more grossly overpowered as the monk, on elite, same level as dungeon, moves so far ahead of the party that he single handedly killed 2 beholders in under 5 seconds except that he went afk during a 3rd and the whole while the beholder blasts him for about 10 seconds, he comes back and kills that beholder as well. All the time the party hardly kills anything since this monk is just steamrolling everything in the dungeon.

I have only seen the monk from levels 1-12 so far and even if they have a tougher time later... they are definatly overpowered from 8-12.

[ProdigalGuru]

You get what you pay for.

[Braegan]

1. Monks move faster. So do barbs
2. Inherent Featherfall. that's handy but hardly an overpowering feature
3. Inherent (and useful) Spell Resistance. so do drow
4. Inherent Disease Immunity. so do WF, or get an item or suck a pot
5. Inherent Poison Immunity. so do WF, or get an item or suck a pot
6. Abundant Step (Unique). FvS wings are stronger
7. Wholeness of Body (no pots or wands required). out of combat self-healing with a long cool down and costs ki
8. Attack Speed on par with Tempest. on par would denote balance, no one is alone at the top
9. Ki is mana you can replenish without a shrine. not really
10. Quivering Palm = at-will Vorpal. um just as powerful as someone using a vorpal
11. Good AC without even trying. good, but not over the top
12. Good saves without even trying. yes best saves are monk & fvs
13. Improved Evasion. so can rogues
14. Plenty of Feats. 3 bonus feats, fighter gets 11
15. Inherent DR Bypass. that's nice but not spectacular.

Hard to gear? Only for the very END of the endgame.

It would not be hard to level to 10- COMPLETELY NAKED. leveling to 10 is cake for any class. no gear at all most all (monk inc) would prolly get stomped out by any hard hitting ogre or troll.

I was waiting for you to elaborate before responding. I agree monks are a powerful class and I do enjoy them, but I disagree that they are overpowered or "easy-mode." All the above points you made do not prove your case.

[Diyon]

Monks are a great survivalist class. Most of their resources are unlimited to some degree, including HP (once you get Wholeness). However they are hardly overpowered. Are they more powerful at lower levels? Absolutely. At higher lvls though their dps on average drops a good bit below the other classes, especially if you're playing a light monk rather than a dark. They can be difficult to gear at high levels, primarily in the means of weapons, which are lacking. Now provided, a monk can do more dps at later levels than a character of another class, that is typically when the monk is very well built and geared, compared to a character that is not as well built or geared, but an acceptable and useful character.

What role does a monk play best? A monk is a party's emergency button. When fight goes to hell in a hand basket, monks are well equiped to save the group from a wipe via high saves, high speed, evasion/trap immunity, and over all mobility. I can't count the number of times I've saved a group from a wipe because I've ran in grabbed stones and fast movement/abundant stepped my way out of there and to a shrine. There will be pretty much no monsters that can keep up with you, ranged attack damage is a minimal threat due to its typical output and needing line of effect, and casters you're pretty likely saving/evading. Monks can get soul stones or people out of difficult situations. Also due to due the mobility and speed its pretty easy for a monk to grab a bunch of monsters attention and either run them out or around as needed when the situation calls for it. *Edit: the whole rescuing thing is also helped by the fact that a monk can often get themselves out of a bad situation, completely recover, then go back to deal with it.

Overpowered? Hardly so.
Underpowered? Monks could use a little love in the weapon/dps department, especially light monks.
Useful? Definitely.

....and I'm done now.

[Xaearth]

I just HAD to respond to this! Have you ever actually PLAYED a Monk? Reading your comments lead me to believe you have not. Have you ever leveled a character to 20? Again, my gut says no.

Have YOU ever actually played a monk? Reading your comments lead me to believe you have not. Have you ever leveled a character to 20? Again, my gut says no.

Anyone with enough intelligence and experience to build and play a monk properly through endgame could not possibly be stupid enough to imply monks are overpowered.
Especially when the devs gave us the steaming pile that is Shintao.

Monks are overpowered and this is being kept quiet by players. It is a boring experience to watch a monk quest with you from levels 8-12, they pretty much kill everything, save against all things, and can take multiple attacks from mobs.

Not hardly. The problem you're experiencing is the fact that, due to the difficulty of balancing the stats to build a viable monk, most decent monks have more experience, skill, and twink gear than the average mid-level player. So yeah, a good monk is better than a bad fighter.

[maddmatt70]

Touch of death should be moved back to level 18 (tier 3 of the pre) because that combined with the run speed monks get makes them unbalanced and overpowered at the low to mid levels. At the upper levels dark monks are fine and do not need a tier 3 to their pre whereas light monks need a little loving (not a ton) still.

[Erekose]

Well DDO interpretation has done their very best that a BAB +15 character gets +20, with a ******** combat mechanic called double strike which allows off hand Touch of death to hit up to 5 times.

This by far must be the worst example of how game developers can stuff things up.

Wheres my Rogue's magical mystery feat which turns his +15 BAB to +20 and while your at it, give my casters 3/4 per level instead of 1/2.

Gotta ask for it.

[Kza]

Right now most classes quite decent balanced (if choose strongest pre as class). Yes i agree monks are very easy to play and forgiving (speed/dr/hits/500strike/abundant step). But its good there are easy to play classes. I really like to play my monk, and for me the move speed increase alone makes it ubba now when the dps are as other melee classes also).

But this is talking about melees, play a fvs/cleric BB:ing all or a wf wiz/sorc and we can start talk about real forgiving classes.

For me hardest class to play good are pure rogue if you are an aggressive player, takes time learn your limits imho.

[Mecholi22]

Remember teh Monkfish?

That is one scary f***in fish

[Bacab]

I like monks.

They are a good class.

Favored Soul absolutely is more overpowered. Leap of Faith is way better than Abundant Step.

I personally think 95% of all end game monks suck. They usually can not break DR...and usually are not built the correct/optimized way.

BUT! That 5% that are geared and build well (whether it the WF Dark Path hate tank or the AC build or w/e)..they are amazing. But then again...is it the monk class that is so nice? Or is it the awesome player playing the monk?

[Diyon]

Touch of death should be moved back to level 18 (tier 3 of the pre) because that combined with the run speed monks get makes them unbalanced and overpowered at the low to mid levels. At the upper levels dark monks are fine and do not need a tier 3 to their pre whereas light monks need a little loving (not a ton) still.

Touch of Death has nothing to do with monk PrE's. It is not on tiers either. You can't move it to tier 3 of "their PrE" because that doesn't exist. Getting the dark monk PrE, Ninja Spy, is independent of touch of death (you don't need the PrE ninja spy to get touch of death).

[orakio]

Well DDO interpretation has done their very best that a BAB +15 character gets +20, with a ******** combat mechanic called double strike which allows off hand Touch of death to hit up to 5 times.

This by far must be the worst example of how game developers can stuff things up.

Wheres my Rogue's magical mystery feat which turns his +15 BAB to +20 and while your at it, give my casters 3/4 per level instead of 1/2.

Gotta ask for it.

If you remember what flurry of blows did in PnP its +1 attacks per round at highest BAB with a -2to hit on all subsequent hits. so if a monk normally is 15/10/5/0 with flurry it would be 13/13/8/3/-2. Rather than giving monks 25% higher baseline attack speed, or a 25% double attack they gave them a slight hit bonus in DDO. Thats a nerf to the feat if anything any by no means imbalanced.

I will tell you where your rogues "magical mystery" ability to get to 20 BAB, get divine power clickies and call it a day. Not to mention you can pick up an additional +3 to hit while flanking from enhancements on targets that are succeptible to SA. Classes aren't the same, don't complain when one gets something you don't. There are benefits and downsides to everything, if you want the features of a monk play a monk and if you want the features of a rogue play rogue.

[maddmatt70]

Touch of Death has nothing to do with monk PrE's. It is not on tiers either. You can't move it to tier 3 of "their PrE" because that doesn't exist. Getting the dark monk PrE, Ninja Spy, is independent of touch of death (you don't need the PrE ninja spy to get touch of death).

True. this is schematics though, regardless the devs should move touch of death back to later levels and examine the run speed progression too.

I am currently leveling a paladin with my friend's monk and I can tell the huge advantages the monk has over the paladin at low to mid levels. There is touch of death which is actually superior to a paladin's smite although divine sacrifice and smite probably in conjunction are competitive with it. The dark monk has the perma blur like effect, evasion and eventually improved evasion, o.k. to good ac, etc. The paladin has a few nice things such as lay on hands, o.k. umd, resists, etc. I would prefer the monk's stuff a little more then the paladin, but the other big difference is run and attack speed and this can not be understated at the low to mid levels. The monk just always gets there before the paladin haha and I drink haste pots like a maniac, but can not keep up.

Paladins are slow in playstyle because they run like they have two left feet and they have to constantly buff themselves further slowing their action down which the monk does not have to worry about really. Its like derrick rose, or john wall, or CP3 vs. today's Shaq in the NBA. At the end game its different because monks can not zerge like they did on the lowbys, the pally has longer buffs due to higher level, haste from others is more constant, and etc.

[slimkj]

examine the run speed progression too.

Nooooooo! The quick fists have gone, please leave the quick feet alone. Make Expeditious Retreat clickies +60% or something so slowmo paladins can keep up instead.

[orakio]

True. this is schematics though, regardless the devs should move touch of death back to later levels and examine the run speed progression too.

I believe you meant to say "this is semantics though".

Touch of death where it is at is very viable, but if they were to move it to 18 then they would have to move the raise dead from light path to 18 as well which really isn't very viable. Perhaps a better alternative would be to make the damage scaling, 25damage per level so at level 9 its 225 damage and at level 20 it gets up to 500. Personally though I am not so sure this is necessary, plenty of classes solo exceptionally well through midgame and even lategame content and don't need a nerf so why does monk?

[maddmatt70]

I believe you meant to say "this is semantics though".

Touch of death where it is at is very viable, but if they were to move it to 18 then they would have to move the raise dead from light path to 18 as well which really isn't very viable. Perhaps a better alternative would be to make the damage scaling, 25damage per level so at level 9 its 225 damage and at level 20 it gets up to 500

Your suggestion may suffice although I would still move back the level 9 ability a little. I am not sure why a monk can do an instant high dps attack like a paladin can at low to mid levels in DDO.

Personally though I am not so sure this is necessary, plenty of classes solo exceptionally well through midgame and even lategame content and don't need a nerf so why does monk?

My statements are less about solo play although a monk will solo a quest faster then a pally, but rather my statements are about group play. Playing with monks on a non monk melee character like a pally is less fun for the pally player is the issue. Playing with a barbarian is not too bad although they are faster then a pally the reason this is so are barbarians have weaknesses like they have strengths and pallys can provide something different to complement those weaknesses such as smites and better saves both of which monks basically have. The reality is when playing with a monk the paladin just trails behind the monk the whole quest and provides less then it would if it were running with a barbarian while doing so.

Monks have less weaknesses then a barbarian and of course can basically do everything a pally can do including their own smite ability (touch of death).

I enjoy playing my paladin and I think paladins in D&D are a great class, but Paladins do not play out that well at the low to mid levels in DDO. Mobs are so weak and pallys are full plate wearing slow footed tough encounter characters as designed in DDO but the way the game is made at low level and mid levels mobs are pretty trivial other then red names and monks can do the same thing on red names (touch of death) pallys can so what gives. The overriding question is why even have paladins in DDO at the low to mid levels why not just play a monk until end game and then lesser reincarnate a few times into a full pally.

[Lorichie]

Your suggestion may suffice although I would still move back the level 9 ability a little. I am not sure why a monk can do an instant high dps attack like a paladin can at low to mid levels in DDO.


My statements are less about solo play although a monk will solo a quest faster then a pally, but rather my statements are about group play. Playing with monks on a non monk melee character like a pally is less fun for the pally player is the issue. Playing with a barbarian is not too bad although they are faster then a pally the reason this is so are barbarians have weaknesses like they have strengths and pallys can provide something different to complement those weaknesses such as smites and better saves both of which monks basically have. The reality is when playing with a monk the paladin just trails behind the monk the whole quest and provides less then it would if it were running with a barbarian while doing so.

Monks have less weaknesses then a barbarian and of course can basically do everything a pally can do including their own smite ability (touch of death).

I enjoy playing my paladin and I think paladins in D&D are a great class, but Paladins do not play out that well at the low to mid levels in DDO. Mobs are so weak and pallys are full plate wearing slow footed tough encounter characters as designed in DDO but the way the game is made at low level and mid levels mobs are pretty trivial other then red names and monks can do the same thing on red names (touch of death) pallys can so what gives. The overriding question is why even have paladins in DDO at the low to mid levels why not just play a monk until end game and then lesser reincarnate a few times into a full pally.

Fwiw,

Yesterday i ran with a level nine, mebbe ten, dark monk, wf build. Now this guy had tr'd at least once, and has many many many toons, and is a very good player, i will give that....but...

We did a bunch of quests yesterday and in every one, this build was insane. Matt is right, for mid levels, this guy was always there first, the mob was/were always dead when we got there, he was always already on the way to the next group and i rarely ever needed to heal/support him. Quite literally, even in BAM, we **** near were unable to participate most of the time we were grouped together. (Note: nobody was complaining,no one was upset. He seemed just as happy to have folks to chat with while he was running around slaughtering everything. Fun was had by all.)

However, i dont think i've seen a build that was quite so devestating in that level range. I would put it on par with the w.o.p. builds of old.

Not all monks are like that, but those that are, stand out positively.

+1 to him, he knows who he is.

R