Dex/Wis Ninja Spy Dark Monk

[InfraRiot]

Hey all!

I really want to roll a Ninja Spy monk because they seem very interesting. My goals are not to min/max but not totally suck either so I want something viable. I will be duoing with a rogue assassin so I want stealth and survivability because my monk is the one who should try to take the hits. The point is to have a useful AC and stunning fist. I've read the boards a lot but wanted some clarifications and feedback on a few things. I know halflings make great monks but I just can't make a halfling monk for asthetic reasons which is why I'm contemplating between a human or a dwarf. I also don't want to make a Warforged monk. I will plan to stay in Wind stance most of the time and use Earth for some extra survivability/tanking when needed. I have 32-point builds unlocked.

Level 20 Human Monk
Lawful Neutral

STR 14
DEX 16
CON 15
INT 10
WIS 14
CHA 8

4 points to DEX and 1 to CON at level 16 to get GM Earth stance with a +2 tome at lvl 18.

Skills:

Balance, concentration, move silently, spot and tumble. Five skills which is why starting INT is 10. Tumble just for concept reasons and move silently in order to sneak around in shadow fade. Might put some points into jump as well and skip maxing spot, move silently or balance.

Feats:

1: TWF
1: Toughness
1: Stunning Fist
2: Weapon Finesse
3: Dodge
3: Path of Inevitable Dominion
6: Toughness
6: Power Attack
9: ITWF
12: Imp. Crit: Bludgeon
15: GTWF
18: Toughness

Enhancements:

Enhancement: Monk Serenity
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Dexterity I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility IIII
Enhancement: Static Charge
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey I
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey II
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy II
Enhancement: Touch of Death
Enhancement: Fists of Iron
Enhancement: Porous Soul
Enhancement: All-Consuming Flame
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Void Strike I
Enhancement: Winter's Touch
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Storms
Enhancement: Master of Thunder
Enhancement: Adept of Rock
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Mountains
Enhancement: Master of Stone
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Monk Jump I
Enhancement: Monk Jump II
Enhancement: Monk Tumble I
Enhancement: Monk Tumble II
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II

= 78 APs so some saved already for Ninja Spy III when it's released.

OR

Level 20 Dwarf Monk
Lawful Neutral

STR 14
DEX 16
CON 16
INT 12
WIS 14
CHA 6

All bumps in DEX.

Skills:

Same as human which is why 12 starting INT.

Feats:

1: TWF
1: Stunning Fist
2: Weapon Finesse
3: Toughness
3: Path of Inevitable Dominion
6: Dodge
6: Power Attack (or with a +1 tome take CE for +3 AC moving PA to 12 and Imp. Crit to 18 losing last Toughness)
9: ITWF
12: Imp. Crit: Bludgeon
15: GTWF
18: Toughness

Enhancements:

Enhancement: Monk Serenity
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics II
Enhancement: Static Charge
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey I
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey II
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy II
Enhancement: Touch of Death
Enhancement: Fists of Iron
Enhancement: Porous Soul
Enhancement: All-Consuming Flame
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Void Strike I
Enhancement: Winter's Touch
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Storms
Enhancement: Master of Thunder
Enhancement: Adept of Rock
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Mountains
Enhancement: Master of Stone
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Monk Jump I
Enhancement: Monk Jump II
Enhancement: Monk Tumble I
Enhancement: Monk Tumble II
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II

Can remove something when Ninja Spy III is released.

Comparing the human is more versatile with APs and gets more healing amp but the dwarf gets +2 Stunning Fist DC from enhancements and also the chance to get CE. The human also gets more hit points, but I might take Least and Lesser Dragonmarks of Passage for some Expeditious Retreat and DDoor fun. Can swap them out for toughnesses later. Might also switch Monkey for Crane is Ki is becoming a problem.

Even if DEX isn't maxed I should be looking at a 16 + 5 bumps/human adapability + 2 tome + 6 item + 1 exceptional +4 stance = 34 which I hope is enough to give a good +to hit. Not sure if I'm aming for epics. I can just TR or LR to some other stats and go STR based if it's necessary later on.

I was wondering is it viable to put bumps into wisdom instead of dex or will the +hit suffer too much. With Wisdom I'd get higher DCs and keep the same AC as with DEX. With 14 starting WIS I'm looking at maybe +2 tome, +2 enhancements, +6 item, +1 exceptional for a 23 WIS and 25 in water stance. Could get another +2 with enhancements on human and +1 with dwarf. Still I've read that 30 WIS should be pretty easy to get but I'm not seeing it. Is that with 16 starting WIS and GM Water Stance? The DCs are important to me since I won't have the STR for the dps so I might as well be a better stunner and have better finishing moves. What is a good Wisdom score to aim for? 24 with 37 DC good enough not counting possible dwarven tactics for stunning fist?

Thanks in advance.

[Syntax42]

32 Wisdom is not too difficult to obtain. 16 starting + 3 monk enhancements + 5 levels + 6 item + 2 tome = 32
You just have to dedicate your stats to dex, wis, and con.

[InfraRiot]

I can see it's easy with bumps. But that would mean leaving STR and DEX low and affecting to hit quite a lot or how much DEX or STR does a monk really need to hit properly in the end game? Not to mention epics.

[Potvin]

32 Wisdom is not too difficult to obtain. 16 starting + 3 monk enhancements + 5 levels + 6 item + 2 tome = 32
You just have to dedicate your stats to dex, wis, and con.

I actually went with 17 starting WIS. In the mega long term, I expect to cap out at 38 WIS (before yugo pot). Using an epic +7 WIS helm. Also makes it easier to reach 36 wisdom (without the helm, and using minos legens instead).

[Jasam01]

I would consider lowering the INT to 8 and skipping maxing spot, allowing for 15 Wis. On your Dex build this would mean only needing 1 Wis enhancement saving you 4 ap. This could then be used for a number of things:

(3rd animal path level (might want Crane for Ki later on btw), Void strike II, II, IV requirements.. e.t.c)

On going Wis based.... I've not heard much about it being done. You lose out on 2-3 to hit compared to the dex build (which may well not be sugnificant, I do not know), and the same in damage per hit to a STR build. You still end up with the higher AC however, and your epic stunning fist will start hitting more reliably and harder targets...

[Jamma]

Some reason you're avoiding halfling? They excel at dex/wis monk builds. You get +1 to hit, +1 to AC, +1 to saves, and halfling sneak attack to hit and damage bonuses in exchange for the extra toughness feat (in the case of the human). The damage bonus makes up for the lower strength, and the to hit bonuses can make up for hitting if you put your stat increases in wisdom. Lots of synergy there...

[Quijonsith]

Some reason you're avoiding halfling? They excel at dex/wis monk builds. You get +1 to hit, +1 to AC, +1 to saves, and halfling sneak attack to hit and damage bonuses in exchange for the extra toughness feat (in the case of the human). The damage bonus makes up for the lower strength, and the to hit bonuses can make up for hitting if you put your stat increases in wisdom. Lots of synergy there...

That's what I've got going:

Here's my current stat breakdown on my dark halfling

Str 11 +3 Tome +6 Gear = 20
Dex 16 +2 Tome +6 Gear +4 Stance +2 Enhancments = 30
Con 15 +2 Tome +6 Gear +1 Level Up -2 Stance = 22
Int 8 +2 Tome = 10
Wis 17 +2 Tome +6 Gear +4 Level Ups +1 Enhancement = 30
Cha 8 +2 Tome = 10

If I got monk wisdom 2 and 3 I could have 32 wisdom, but I have better uses for 10 AP. With halfling cunning my to-hit isn't a problem except having to turn off power attack in some parts of epics. I do notice misses when I have aggro until it's stunned or if I can't stun it I get out my +5 Icy burst Holy handwraps of deception and in 3-5 hits I've got sneak attack again. My stunning wraps are only +3. When I use stunning fist it rarely fails even in epics. This is true of my dark finisher debuffs as well. I love having this much wisdom for my DCs.

[InfraRiot]

Thanks for the responses. As I said I'm avoiding halfling for aesthetic reasons. They just look so weak and short, punching taller things in the legs. I just can't do it. Also guile and cunning won't help me a lot if I have aggro and they really take up a lot of APs. I think I will go with the human as he's most versatile and looks best of the three in my opinion.

I guess I could drop spot if it's not that needed although it's nice to see stealthed enemies. Then I'd probably increase WIS to 15 and possibly getting it to 28 without bumps using +2 tome, +1 human adaptability, +3 enhancements, +6 item, +1 exceptional.

Anyone else have any comments on WIS vs DEX and bumping WIS? Losing to hit too risky for it? A DC of 36+ for finishers and stunning fist with some stunning wraps should be enough? What's the minimum STR or DEX you should aim for?

EDIT: Posted before I read Quijonsith's reply. Thanks for that. It clarified a a good deal.

[Quijonsith]

I understand not wanting halfling for looks, but don't do it because of losing sneak attack when you have aggro. If it's stunned you get sneak attack. If it can't be stunned get out your best deception handwraps and you'll almost constantly have sneak attack while having aggro. I almost never lack my sneak attack.

[InfraRiot]

Yes I figured once I get stuff stunned I get the sneak attack as well. Had no idea of the deception wraps though. Still it's a lot to sacrifice to get cunning and guile IV, but the looks issue is still my top reason for not going halfling.

[Xaearth]

I wouldn't dump spot. Being one of the fastest characters in the party and not being able to see the mobs you're running past is a bad combo.

Missing out on jump on a melee that isn't wearing heavy armor may be a choice you regret as well.
As far as move silently, not sure how Shadow Fade works... you may want to make sure that you'll actually be able to make use of it with little investment in hide.

I also wouldn't recommend putting more than 1 point in tumble when you're considering dumping spot and jump.
Flavor is well and good, but passing up the two skills that are in general staples of any melee build...

Speaking of sneak attack, monks can also get an enhancement for a water type ki strike that can make mobs vulnerable to sneak attacks for a time if they fail the save.

[Quijonsith]

I don't have cunning and guile IV. That alone costs 8 AP for an extra 1 on to hit and damage. I believe I do have cunning and guile III, but I'm considering dropping guile to get cunning IV and crane IV.

As for sneak attack in general goes: at ninja spy II we have an extra 3d6 sneak attack damage. Whether or not you are halfling you should be trying to take advantage of that. Tack on tharne's goggles which I believe is an extra 16 sneak attack (please someone correct me if I'm wrong) and you really really want your sneak attack. If you're then trying to get sneak attack anyway and want to go dex/wis might aswell get the to-hit back that you'll be missing by not having level ups in your to-hit stat.

As for Xaearth's point about spot: I agree. I personally can't stand leaving spot out of my melee builds and even my rog/wiz.

Jump I've found to be great on my monk, but not game breaking if you have a +30 jump clicky or always have a caster to put that on you.

As for move silently with shadow fade, I believe I've already covered that one.

And lastly the 'water type ki strike that can make mobs vulnerable to sneak attacks for a time'... that strike is unbalancing strike and it's DC is based on half monk level + wis modifier, as opposed to the dark finishers are full monk level. I don't know what the end game enemy reflex saves are like, but I've been trying to use eagle claw attack (same DC fort save) and it almost never lands. I might try out unbalancing strike soon.

[Jasam01]

On Jump, once you get the clicky you'll probably wish you had less of it. It caps at 40, and your never going to have less then 10 by that stage.

Spot you CAN do without, but it is nice to have.

Shadow fade gives inviability, so move silently helps.

Cunning is very nice way to get extra to hit on WIS builds. And you usualy have the APs for 2-3 ranks of it. Humans can use adaptability I guess, but it doesn't last long. The mian thing of note is at the lower levels I found I used for progression, which means it's less expensive then it appears in the long run.

[Maegin]

This may seem a bit of a silly build, but, I went 15, 15, 15, 8, 15, 8 and eventually got all +3 tomes in each of the 15's, all lvl ups into wisdom, and sit in water stance with crane 2 and stun things in amerath all day.

combind that with dark/ninja you can really pick your targets when you want them, and really can controll the battle field quite nicely. grab some stunning 10 handwraps, and i picked up quick draw, and life is easy.

[Jasam01]

The only thing that seems silly about that to me is the water stance 0.o, I'm surprised you still need the extra DC.
(Oh and quick draw, since last I checked it only works with range). If I had a bunch of +3 tomes I would use them XD.

I do wish to ask if you ever miss anything with your normal strikes. I've not seen too meny WIS builds and was wondering if the to hit is enough.

[InfraRiot]

Thanks again for the feedback. Alright I do like halflings otherwise so I rolled up a halfling and tried out the combat. Maybe it's not too bad and the size sure fits a sneaky character. Given this and your feedback I'll probably go halfling after all with these stats:

STR 12 (+1 tome for PA)
DEX 16
CON 15
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 8

4 bumps in WIS and 1 in CON. Should hit 30 WIS with 1 exceptional.

Feats:

1: TWF
1: Stunning Fist
2: Weapon Finesse
3: Toughness
3: Path of Inevitable Dominion
6: Dodge
6: Power Attack
9: ITWF
12: Imp. Crit: Bludgeon
15: GTWF
18: Toughness

Skills: Going with balance, concentration, move silently and spot. Dropping tumble. Will put some points in jump to have it at 10 at least for +30 clicky or spell. With 20 STR + enhancements + halfling agility I'm already at 9. If I ever get a +2 INT tome I might reconsider tumble.

Enhancements:

Enhancement: Monk Serenity
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity II
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning II
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning III
Enhancement: Halfling Guile I
Enhancement: Halfling Guile II
Enhancement: Halfling Guile III
Enhancement: Static Charge
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane I
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane II
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane III
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy II
Enhancement: Touch of Death
Enhancement: Fists of Iron
Enhancement: Porous Soul
Enhhancement: All-Consuming Flame
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Void Strike I
Enhancement: Unbalancing Strike
Enhancement: Winter's Touch
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Storms
Enhancement: Master of Thunder
Enhancement: Adept of Rock
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Mountains
Enhancement: Master of Stone
Enhancement: Adept of Rain
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Monk Jump I
Enhancement: Monk Jump II
Enhancement: Monk Tumble I
Enhancement: Monk Tumble II
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
=80 AP

Very tight if going for adding unbalancing strike, but I want to try it out. Will also have to drop something for Ninja Spy III. Could only fit in 1 rank of Monk Imp. Recovery.

[Jasam01]

Just a few things of note.

Unbalanceing strike - I don't recomend it. Better of using stunning blow, which gives you your sneak attacl bonus AND gives ki regen. As such no need for adept of water. Will also free up a handful of points.

Monk Recov. II - Not worth the AP cost. With the class very AP tight as is, 4AP is not worth the benifits IMO. Even Level I can argueably be used in better places. SO don't try too hard to fit it in.


Halfling Dexterity - If you can hit fine, this is one place you could save some AP, or tranfer it to WIS
Void Strike - If you need 1 AP somewhere, it can be lived without.
Racial Toughness II - Not worth it IMO. 10hp for 2 AP can easly be lived without, especaly at the higher levels. It's a nice way to spend 2 spare points, but if you don't take unbalancing strike this combines to 4+ AP that can go somewhere else thats a lot more valuable then 10hp.

Those AP could then be spent on more guile/cunning/WIS/animal. Or even Monk Rcv II or void strike II for easy charm finisher access(if you like it). And when it eventualy comes out, allow for fiting in Ninja Spy III. I don't expect that to happon any time this side of ever though tbh, so I certainly wouldn't worry about it untill it's out.

These few feats are where you get a small amount of customisation and payoffs aganst each other.

[Xaearth]

Unbalanceing strike - I don't recomend it. Better of using stunning blow, which gives you your sneak attacl bonus AND gives ki regen. As such no need for adept of water. Will also free up a handful of points.

Unbalancing strike is primarily for bosses that cannot be stunned. It's especially useful when soloing.

[Jasam01]

There are bosses that are immune to stunning fist but not Unbalancing Strike? (And survive ToD).

And for that matter, can it even get a high enough DC to work on said mobs in the high end content? If not it's something you could consider using to level the respecing out of.