Thelanis Guild Power Rating Week 2

[Kaldaka]

...

Your comparison of the two types of guilds is either disrespectful or naive.

Hmm can't it be both??

[dasein18]

I just wanted to say that the even though everyone else has stated the obvious, I did want to go on the record insofar as membership counts are concerned.

The guild member count is highly innacurate in relation with the power rating. I mean you have Madborn listed with 374 members? But in reality there are only like a dozen+ of us playing regularly.

Just saying.

I agree Members should be changed to Characters. There are many in our guild with over 10 characters, a few with 20, and at least one with over 30 characters.

[-Satureon-]

If you want to see some quality, check myddo on some guild officer (+ try to play with them if you can).

Closer to measure anything about quality than the list, but ofc need more time and also still flawed.

[Iambeastx]

I think its a nice idea that unfortunately isn't quite accurate and ministry summed it up pretty **** well in his first reply.

This however, isn't a reason to stop doing this, i specifically like seeing the change in members section.

[Renegade66]

For what it's worth, I consider "Guild Power" to be based on two things, that are; a) volume of high end content (raids and Epic quests primarily), and b) being organized and determined enough to win firsts on new raids. I would use a 100 pt system with 'a' maxing out at 75 pts and 'b' maxing out at 25 pts.

Notes:
1) Renown is a joke for establishing "Guild Power" unless it is changed to heavily favor high-end content completion versus a jabillion noobs running Irestone Inlet.

2) You do not have to consider guild members. Even though Storm Lords has twice as many members as Legion, if Storm Lords knock-out more high end content per day than Legion then they are more "powerful" than Legion in that regard. A guild of 3 zoober players may be considered "Elite", but won't be very "Powerful" overall as they will be dwarfed by larger, elite guilds.

3) This simplifies the calculation to just establishing a score for high-end content completion. You get nothing for running quests unless Elite, high level quests. You get some for running lower level Raids, but much more for running high level raids. You get a ton for running Epic Quests and even more for running Epic Raids. If you could sum this up by guild, you would have 75% of your final score with the other 25% coming from worldwide/server firsts. If you have the most high end content points you get a score of 75. For lower scores, you just ratio. For example if Guild NE1 has 2/3rd the total of the top guild then they would get 50 pts.

4) The final 25% is a score based on firsts. A worldwide raid first gets a number of points (the amount doesn't matter). A server first might get half that. Sum up and the guild in first place gets 25 pts. Ratio the others for their amount.

For example, let's say that Guild X has the most high end completion per day, so they get 75 pts, but no firsts. They get a total Guild Power Ranking of 75 + 0 = 75.

Now, Legion has 90% of Guild X's high end content score, but is top on the firsts list. Their Guild Power Score would be (75 * .90) + 25 = 92.5.

The 25% weighting for firsts can be adjusted up or down, but overall you'll have an excellent means of comparing "Guild Power". The firsts score is very easy to get. The high end content score would require being able to capture quest/raid completions including difficulty setting.

[Mindsynk]

Renegade

While I think your Power rating formula has merit, it is calculated via metrics that are not available and would be impossible to collect unless Turbine made a concerted effort to track them specifically. I could make the current power rating much more accurate given a list of metrics I know I can't get, but would love to have, much like your suggestion.

Other than the actual rating algorithm(which inherently has to have some bias because a human has to create it), the ratings need to be based on public and official Turbine stats. Any rating that would get into Guilds submitting their own information is going to introduce massive amounts of error if not fraud.

If turbine will publish this info(and the other dozen or so metrics I want), I would certainly use them in the calculations.

[Renegade66]

I do know that completions are captured in MyDDO, but difficulty doesn't seem to be included. Also, it's captured by character and probably not guild. If completions were captured by toon with guild listed and difficulty then we'd have all we need. Of course, Turbine would have to publish that info.

You're absolutely right though. We don't have the data to reasonably assess Guild Power Ranking. Therefore, no reason to do so until we have that data.

For example, from the renown system we know only three things; a) total renown points by guild, b) renown level by guild, c) total characters in guild. None of which, IMO, are usable for determining Guild Power.

Do you have a list of the data that is available?

[Mindsynk]

You can add reknown/member, change in reknown and change in members as a few other metrics you can make with what is given. You would have to agree that all three are useful metrics to some degree. Perfect, no. Ideal, probably not. But certainly they have some bearing on the recent activities of a guild. Also you can do rolling metrics where a guilds recent form impacts the ratings more that what happened 2 months ago.

[Renegade66]

You can add reknown/member, change in reknown and change in members as a few other metrics you can make with what is given. You would have to agree that all three are useful metrics to some degree.

I actually do disagree.

Renown/member doesn't mean guilds are running high end content. A smaller guild can get infinitely more renown/member by farming chests or BtG than a Legion could during normal day-to-day raid and epic zerging. I would assess this metric as less than useful as it is more than misleading.

Change in renown is similar. I'll use Legion again as a convenient example. When we are doing our normal thing, we are running the hell out of raids and epic content. However, if we want to earn renown, we have to stop and farm chests or lower end content which is cheeseball. Our running high end content displays Power, not farming chests. Again, this metric is not useable as it is misleading and detrimental to the accuracy of the power rating.

Change in members is definitely the worst of the three metrics you have listed. We just changed to a 1 month and boot policy so our number of members has dropped by 25%. Is this to indicate a reduction in Guild Power? Conversely, spamming noobs off the boat to inflate your membership and never dumping inactive members is also no indication of Guild Power and is detrimental to the accuracy of the power rating.

In short, for a Guild Power rating, it would be best to stay clear of these misleading statistics. So unless you have other data to consider, I stick by my assessment that we do not have the data to create a remotely accurate Guild Power ranking and therefore should not do so until we do.

If Turbine changes the renown system to heavily favor high end content then could use renown and firsts to establish a Guild Power Rating.

[Mindsynk]

So let me get this straight, no power ratings until:
A) Turbine provides metrics for your system
B) You say its ok to do so

Should I also contact you before I open a chest or slay a monster to make sure it doesn't interfere with the way you view the world?

Seriously, you are never going to get the statistics you need for your version of power ratings, so by your own logic, power ratings will never exist.

The one thing you conveniently neglect during your "astute" observations, is that the power ratings are generating a fairly accurate list of the power guilds on Thelanis with metrics you say it cannot be done with.

Is that ranking ever going to be perfect? No
Does a week's ranking indicate who is the best guild ever, now and forever? No

However, you(although not alone) in particular, seem to be stuck on the word Power. To you the word means who can do the highest level content(although you dont give any specifics such as does time to complete count, do death against count, do the amt of total levels in the group completing said content count, etc..). That's fine. To someone else it would seem to mean who collects the most reknown, regardless of whether you personally agree with the way reknown was implemented. To me, it is the ability of a guild to collect reknown and expand its membership while not losing efficiency. All of these are correct interpretations of the word Power, however people like you seem to insist that only their interpretation of the word in correct.

If you wish to make a power rating using your system that is, quite frankly, even more farfetched than anyone else's considering there is absolutely no possible chance you will ever get the metrics you seem to require, by all means get a blog and do so.

But sit there on your little throne and decry that only your way is right while knowing that your way is impossible, and everyone's else interpretation of guild power, a completely subjective term, is wrong would seem to be a bit self-centered don't you think?

I respect your opinion, but that does not mean your opinion is right. Especially when your opinion is to provide a solution that can and will never be possible to implement. But according to you we should just all throw up our hands and say, "Since we can't implement Renegade's perfect system, we should just give up trying."

Sorry mate, while I certainly respect your contribution as a Guild leader of what my crappy rating system says is the most powerful in Thelanis, and your knowledge of DDO may be unparalleled, in this case your solution of, My way or no way, is extremely short sighted and a bit insulting.

[Renegade66]

Now, now. No need to get butt-hurt and snippy. I have my opinion of what Guild Power represents and I'm sure it differs from others. This thread was opened up for constructive criticism and alternative ideas. I gave you mine, yet you get defensive as if I'm attacking you personally. I am not. I do however believe that a Guild Power ranking based on a renown system that does not measure "Power" is flawed and feel that you may be wasting your time chasing this animal. Again, this is just my opinion, you could be wrong.

To create metrics for Guild Power, you must first define Guild Power.

I submitted my take on how to define Guild Power. You listed other elements. It would be interesting to further develop the list of what defines Guild Power. Once we do get usable metrics we can then take everyone's input and make something cool.

[Thorzian]

Quoted for truth. If the leaderboards listed 'accounts' rather than 'members', then this metric might -start- to get useful.

and Fallen Immortals would be on top baby YAAAAAAAA!!

[blametroi]

I read through many of the "we question the methodology" posts, but until we get more data points, this beats a blank, and reporting on the changes is helpful. Analysis of the changes over time may teach us all a better way to rank guilds.

The work is appreciated. As someone new to Thelanis, I'm looking for more info on its guilds.

[Tarnoc]

So let me get this straight, no power ratings until:
A) Turbine provides metrics for your system
B) You say its ok to do so

Should I also contact you before I open a chest or slay a monster to make sure it doesn't interfere with the way you view the world?

Seriously, you are never going to get the statistics you need for your version of power ratings, so by your own logic, power ratings will never exist.

The one thing you conveniently neglect during your "astute" observations, is that the power ratings are generating a fairly accurate list of the power guilds on Thelanis with metrics you say it cannot be done with.

Is that ranking ever going to be perfect? No
Does a week's ranking indicate who is the best guild ever, now and forever? No

However, you(although not alone) in particular, seem to be stuck on the word Power. To you the word means who can do the highest level content(although you dont give any specifics such as does time to complete count, do death against count, do the amt of total levels in the group completing said content count, etc..). That's fine. To someone else it would seem to mean who collects the most reknown, regardless of whether you personally agree with the way reknown was implemented. To me, it is the ability of a guild to collect reknown and expand its membership while not losing efficiency. All of these are correct interpretations of the word Power, however people like you seem to insist that only their interpretation of the word in correct.

If you wish to make a power rating using your system that is, quite frankly, even more farfetched than anyone else's considering there is absolutely no possible chance you will ever get the metrics you seem to require, by all means get a blog and do so.

But sit there on your little throne and decry that only your way is right while knowing that your way is impossible, and everyone's else interpretation of guild power, a completely subjective term, is wrong would seem to be a bit self-centered don't you think?

I respect your opinion, but that does not mean your opinion is right. Especially when your opinion is to provide a solution that can and will never be possible to implement. But according to you we should just all throw up our hands and say, "Since we can't implement Renegade's perfect system, we should just give up trying."

Sorry mate, while I certainly respect your contribution as a Guild leader of what my crappy rating system says is the most powerful in Thelanis, and your knowledge of DDO may be unparalleled, in this case your solution of, My way or no way, is extremely short sighted and a bit insulting.

Well have fun showing in your listings Smokys Guild as most powerful guild on Thelanus......post your toons so i can send all those powerful guildies to your LFMs

P.S. your numbers on members is very wrong i know the band of shifting sands very well and they have 12to18 members not 200+

[Eldun]

Again, this is just my opinion, you could be wrong.

I like this line ... mind if I use it during the next argument with the wife?

[Renegade66]

I like this line ... mind if I use it during the next argument with the wife?

Feel free. I used a lot with my first wife.

[Eldun]

Hmm on second thought it'll be cheaper not to use it. LOL!

[Sonofmoradin]

For what it's worth, I consider "Guild Power" to be based on two things, that are; a) volume of high end content (raids and Epic quests primarily), and b) being organized and determined enough to win firsts on new raids. I would use a 100 pt system with 'a' maxing out at 75 pts and 'b' maxing out at 25 pts.

Notes:
1) Renown is a joke for establishing "Guild Power" unless it is changed to heavily favor high-end content completion versus a jabillion noobs running Irestone Inlet.

2) You do not have to consider guild members. Even though Storm Lords has twice as many members as Legion, if Storm Lords knock-out more high end content per day than Legion then they are more "powerful" than Legion in that regard. A guild of 3 zoober players may be considered "Elite", but won't be very "Powerful" overall as they will be dwarfed by larger, elite guilds.

3) This simplifies the calculation to just establishing a score for high-end content completion. You get nothing for running quests unless Elite, high level quests. You get some for running lower level Raids, but much more for running high level raids. You get a ton for running Epic Quests and even more for running Epic Raids. If you could sum this up by guild, you would have 75% of your final score with the other 25% coming from worldwide/server firsts. If you have the most high end content points you get a score of 75. For lower scores, you just ratio. For example if Guild NE1 has 2/3rd the total of the top guild then they would get 50 pts.

4) The final 25% is a score based on firsts. A worldwide raid first gets a number of points (the amount doesn't matter). A server first might get half that. Sum up and the guild in first place gets 25 pts. Ratio the others for their amount.

For example, let's say that Guild X has the most high end completion per day, so they get 75 pts, but no firsts. They get a total Guild Power Ranking of 75 + 0 = 75.

Now, Legion has 90% of Guild X's high end content score, but is top on the firsts list. Their Guild Power Score would be (75 * .90) + 25 = 92.5.

The 25% weighting for firsts can be adjusted up or down, but overall you'll have an excellent means of comparing "Guild Power". The firsts score is very easy to get. The high end content score would require being able to capture quest/raid completions including difficulty setting.

I would say I mostly agree on the whole concept.