Thelanis Guild Power Rating Week 2

[Freeman]

I'm not slamming the people who are contributing.

As for my rep. I'll tell you what, I'll turn my rep bar on for the next few days. Just for you.

Contributing isn't the same as agreeing. Stating that the OP's work is essentially meaningless, because the basic premise upon which it is founded is fundamentally flawed, is still contributing to the discussion, whether you agree with that statement or not. Your posts, however, have contributed nothing to the actual topic of hand, and only been directed at others who have been posting on the subject. If you want to slam anyone for not contributing, I suggest you look a little closer to home.

[Montrose]

Contributing isn't the same as agreeing. Stating that the OP's work is essentially meaningless, because the basic premise upon which it is founded is fundamentally flawed, is still contributing to the discussion, whether you agree with that statement or not. Your posts, however, have contributed nothing to the actual topic of hand, and only been directed at others who have been posting on the subject. If you want to slam anyone for not contributing, I suggest you look a little closer to home.

Dang double post. Interwebs flaked on me, see below for what was here.

[Montrose]

Contributing isn't the same as agreeing. Stating that the OP's work is essentially meaningless, because the basic premise upon which it is founded is fundamentally flawed, is still contributing to the discussion, whether you agree with that statement or not. Your posts, however, have contributed nothing to the actual topic of hand, and only been directed at others who have been posting on the subject. If you want to slam anyone for not contributing, I suggest you look a little closer to home.

We do disagree here. IMO, the power rankings are flawed, but simply gainsaying the idea is not helpful.

Neither is saying "the power rankings don't have X guild in them, so they are bunk." All that does is beg the question of the skill of guild X, which is an entirely different conversation.

Contribution to the conversation would be thoughtful analysis of what is wrong with the current system as well as positive thoughts on how it could be improved. There have been some posts of this nature in the thread, but they are few and far between.

But, you are right in that I have been sniping instead of adding. So I will correct that.

1) Due to the fact that very few people (statistically speaking) multi-box, renown gain is more closely tied to accounts, not characters. Therefore, the rankings should be based upon accounts.

2) The power rankings do not take into account renown decay. Thus, guilds at the top fo the list will quickly be caught by guilds lower on the list. That is to say, the guilds at the top need to do more just to stay even with the guilds below. The system should take into account renown decay

3) The exact algorithm for renown gain is not known at this point. Randomness is a factor, and we don't know how much of one. Therefore, the power rankings have an element of pure dumb luck in them. No solution for this one other than to try and backsolve the alogorithm or hope the devs tell us.

[Ministry]

I'm not slamming the people who are contributing.

As for my rep. I'll tell you what, I'll turn my rep bar on for the next few days. Just for you.

Nice job paying off turbine to give you some points to neg rep people who don't agree with you. Sad.

Oh how it has ill affected me. Keep up posting worthless comments, offering no solutions, insight or any other take on things and oh ya... neg repping people.

[dasein18]

It's safe to say that a high majority of the people on these boards probably have advanced degrees in multiple sciences.

If one of yours is in statistical analysis and you would like to present a coherent and compelling argument of causality versus correlation, that would be a welcome addition to the thread.

(Edit: BTW, this is my favorite link on the subject --> http://xkcd.com/552/)

So do you believe in existence proceeds essence or essence proceeds existence?

I already made a statement about correlation and causality. You prefer to attack folks on the forums then open up your rep to de-rep others. Sad. Why don't you go troll somewhere else.

[Paladin20]

Several problems with the rating system:

1. You assume that every player within each guild is persistently attempting to gain as much Renown as possible every single minute they're logged on. In other words, it's as if the guilds were all racing and attempting to produce as much Renown as possible. Surely we could all spend our entire DDO lives trying to collect Renown, but I think most would agree that there are better, more productive, and more entertaining things to do. Not all guilds are on race mode for L100; matter of fact after attaining the first ship the sensible side of things would dictate that the rate at which Renown is pursued should decline. It would be extremely difficult to measure the "fervor" at which guilds are trying to get Renown.

2. There are mechanics in DDO that aren't exactly public or well known. To elaborate, not all characters/accounts are as "good" at pulling things from chests whether that be named loot, raid items, tomes, ingredients, festival coins, etc... and since Renown is generated from a chest, most likely we can't ignore that there might be great variance at the rate which a certain character/account/player may generate Renown. I speak from experience in over 4 years of playing, where you will see time and again the same people pull well while others need 10x as much effort to produce similar results. My cleric will run the Shroud and out of the 12 chests she will consistently pull 8-9 pieces of crappy shield/armor, 1-2 accessories, and if I'm lucky, more than 1 weapon. This tends to happen a lot with my toons, where I'm constantly pulling a lot more armor/shields than many of the people I run with. I also happen to know people who can pull rare named/desirable items at a far higher rate than should be for game-balance purposes.

3. Guild level is not a good indicator of guild/character power. I mean, Guild XP is not really going to indicate who has the better builds, gear, or who is beating the more challenging content because one could simply run midbie Shrouds all day while the higher-end guilds are taking a little more time to beat stuff on Epic or working on their 2nd/3rd TRs. Yes Epic chests generate more Renown, however, there are spots in the game where you could in theory acquire more Renown/time. Achievements, character builds, gear, teamwork, leadership, ability to beat high-end content on high difficulty, quest knowledge... these would be far more accurate measures of power, yet quite hard to quantify. Hence the reputation that each guild builds over time by which we select who we would like to quest with counts within the power gamer circles.

4. There are a fair amount of inconsistencies, and perhaps they could be clarified if you posted your methodology/math. A fair Power Ranking shouldn't produce absurdities such as ranking (sorry if I'm offending anybody) The Wild Bunch, Ekke Ekke Ptang Zoo, and Storm Lords ahead of Legion, to cite an obvious/common sense example. Also, to cite a mathematical example, why should a guild that is only L19 on your list w/340k and has 720 members (The Exploration Society) be ranked higher than a guild with 997k and 493 members (Inferus Sus)? TES only added 2 members and totaled 139k for the week while IS only excluded 19 characters and tallied over 320k for the week (a lot more production with less total characters). Seems like the criteria for subtracting members is a tad harsh.

5. Resolving decay will also be an issue until someone can produce some method to calculate the rate, especially as guilds move towards higher levels.

Valiant effort, but perhaps a little too reliant on a parameter that is at best, vague.

[Kaldaka]

...
There are mechanics in DDO that aren't exactly public or well known. To elaborate, not all characters/accounts are as "good" at pulling things from chests whether that be named loot, raid items, tomes, ingredients, festival coins, etc... and since Renown is generated from a chest, most likely we can't ignore that there might be great variance at the rate which a certain character/account/player may generate Renown. ...

I have to agree, especially with this statement. We all know that loot tend to come in waves. Some people pull great items for a little while and then might not pull any for a bit afterwards. It is the nature of statistics that it all will supposedly even out ... Its like running the desert, I remember pulling two bloodstones within a week, but I had been farming for them for almost four months prior with no luck whatsoever.

This same "luck" factor cannot be accounted for since the reknown has only been in effect for a couple weeks now. Maybe certain guilds are getting "lucky" now but will get "unlucky" soon enough and vice versa. This is all randomness we are talking about here ...

[Mindsynk]

Good morning all. Thank you for the comments. It is nice to see other numerically minded people about. For me that is really why I do it, to see if I can create an algorithm that will produce good results with what we all agree is extremely limited data. Clearly it is not perfect, but it is 2 iterations old and has limited data to work from, so expecting it to produce perfect results at this point would seem a bit far fetched.

I would like to discuss/address some comments made, but I would ask future comments be directed at the ranking and my stupidity, not someone else's. I find it a little amusing that two of you are fighting, not about me being an idiot which you agree upon, but how best to say it and who's rep is bigger. If you could direct those energies towards bashing my rankings I'd appreciate.

OK comments.

For the final time, can we simply all agree that:
a) Turbine provide scant information to do this. I can't control what they give me, I can just try to use it as best as possible. Suggesting I use something that is not available is not enlightening. I can list 100 metrics I would love to have that Turbine could easily give me to use. What would be great instead are some creative thoughts on how to use what we are given best. I think the change in xp and change in members metrics are meaningful statistics. If someone has thoughts on how to incorporate or analyze decay, that would be a great comment to see.

Perhaps if as guild leaders we collectively asked turbine to simply give us some more metrics to help us lead and manage better they would listen. Not only account vs member, but mean, mode, median age of toons, total guild days(each toon generats one guild day each day it is a member of a guild. A month from now 2 guild may each have 300 members, but guild a start with 300 on day 1 and guild b built to 300. Guild days would show Guild A had more potential guild days to build points than Guild B who added members during the month), active members(toons that had collected points during a period), etc.. tons of non privacy invading info that they simply pull from the db and stick on their little leaderboard.

b) Members vs. Accounts
You want me to use accounts as opposed to members, but currently that is impossible. Therefore I have to use members. Now if you wish to make the argument that members is not as good a metric as accounts I would agree with you. But when you go to the point of saying members has now statistical bearing whatsoever, I couldn't disagree more. My guild is primarily young toons(both noobs and vets) and I can tell you that even the newest noob average 2 toons the first day. And noobs who are vip normally have 3-4 right away. All join the guild because they know no one else. Personally I have 9 toons, but only 4 are in the guild. The others are unaffiliated or in other guilds. I would think this is probably representative of most vet players: they dont add all their toons to one guild. In fact I know several vet players with toons in several guilds, so the argument that all old guilds have 20 people with 20 toons, while new guild have 400 noobs with 1 toon is hogwash.

Old guilds have vast member superiority over new guilds. Unless an old guild is comprised of scant members with massive amounts of toons all in one guild AND a new guild is this fantasized one account per member setup, could the old guilds member superiority be overcome. And the rankings show that this is rarely the case.

For those of you sticking to the more statistical nature of this thread, whether you see any merit in the rankings or not, I thank you. I don't mind you critiquing me or the rankings and such things as reknown decay were things that I hadn't thought of. If posting the weekly XP totals is helpful for some, I will continue to do so.

Now my opinion piece on some of the comments I read on here. Feel free to skip this part.

c) The People Who Claim Reknown Means Nothing, Are The People Collecting The Most Of It.

This one is a bit humorous. Look back on this thread and the first ranking thread and note which guilds those who scream reknown means nothing loudest are in. Why its almost exclusively members of guilds with lots of reknown! It is not members of old prestigious guilds who have little reknown, or new guilds complaining that its unfair that the old guilds had 300 toons on day 1 and they had nothing. It is people in guilds who have obviously made it a huge priority to collect reknown. So I wonder, how exactly do you not feel incredible hypocritical when you come on here demeaning the one thing you have obviously spent an inordinate amount of time doing? If reknown means nothing, why are you collecting it with such fervor? This would seem to be the equivalent of preaching on the in game advice channel that Green Steel is worthless, yet spending all of your time running shroud. If you believe reknown is meaningless then leave the trophies in the chests like we all do with the other pointless stuff in the game.

d) Those With Most Reknown, Farmed It The Most.

By far the most humorous argument against the reknown system is that it is too easy to find and young guilds of noobs can farm it too easily. And these comments come from the people with the most reknown. And how do you suppose you get 1,000,000 reknown in two weeks? By normal questing? No, by organizing specific guild favor farming runs. The people exploiting the system the most is not the noob guilds, its the organized old ones. The old ones know the quests and ares to farm, can organize more people, faster, and have members who know exactly what to do when told to do it. Noobs guild have none of those advantages are often are scattershot noobs soloing quests taking 4 times as long to do it because they dont even know how to use the social panel.

So can we please stop with the accusations of noob guild doing what the old guilds have done and do to an exponential degree more? Your guild did not get to 25th level because you only have 20 members with 20 toons each just doing their normal thing. We have all quested for reknown and know the only way to get it in large amts is to plan to hunt for it in large amts. You really look like a complete schmuck when you are accusing people of stealing from the cookie jar and you are sitting there with chocolate chips smeared all over your face and hands.

e) Noobguildaphobia - The Fear of Noob Guilds

Why is there such concern over what noob guilds are doing? As mentioned above, old guilds have numerous advantages over noob guilds, yet time and again there are arguments about noob guilds being too powerful or growing too fast. Nothing stops old guild from recruiting save old guilds. I am sure lots of noobs would like to learn from older guild members but many old guilds dont want them.

But then you have the audacity to say that the guilds that will take them and mentor them have too many of them? You reject someone then you complain that someone else accepted them? What is your solution, to keep noobs from being able to join guilds? That turbine shouldn't let newer guilds or new players collect reknown? The idea that you can consciously reject a resource and then complain how another person who sees value in that resource uses it, is really the height of ego-centricity.

Here is a solution, recruits some noobs into your guilds. Teach them to play just like someone taught you. But if you decline that honor, please do not complain about the rewards another person or organization gets for taking that responsibility and teaching new players to love DDO as much as you.

[Kaldaka]

The other issue I have with this ranking is the small guild bonus bug ... We honestly have no idea how its currently impacting renown gathering whatsoever.

[Montrose]

Nice job paying off turbine to give you some points to neg rep people who don't agree with you. Sad.

Oh how it has ill affected me. Keep up posting worthless comments, offering no solutions, insight or any other take on things and oh ya... neg repping people.

As mentioned in reply to the rather rude PM that you sent me, I do not as a rule neg rep people. In fact, I don't believe I have ever given neg rep. The whole rep system bothers me, which is why I had it shut off until you called my rep level out. I'll be turning it off again here shortly.

As to your allegations of me in collusion with Turbine, I am going to pray that was a joke and that you don't honestly have that level of paranoia.

At this point I can only assume that you have some kind of personal grudge against me, which is fine. As this portion of the thread no longer pertains even in the slightest to the original post this will be my last public response. You may feel free to keep PMing me if you have not yet expended your vitrol.

Apologies to the OP for this mini-derail.

[Paladin20]

Perhaps if as guild leaders we collectively asked turbine to simply give us some more metrics to help us lead and manage better they would listen. Not only account vs member, but mean, mode, median age of toons, total guild days(each toon generats one guild day each day it is a member of a guild. A month from now 2 guild may each have 300 members, but guild a start with 300 on day 1 and guild b built to 300. Guild days would show Guild A had more potential guild days to build points than Guild B who added members during the month), active members(toons that had collected points during a period), etc.. tons of non privacy invading info that they simply pull from the db and stick on their little leaderboard.

b) Members vs. Accounts
You want me to use accounts as opposed to members, but currently that is impossible. Therefore I have to use members. Now if you wish to make the argument that members is not as good a metric as accounts I would agree with you. But when you go to the point of saying members has now statistical bearing whatsoever, I couldn't disagree more. My guild is primarily young toons(both noobs and vets) and I can tell you that even the newest noob average 2 toons the first day. And noobs who are vip normally have 3-4 right away. All join the guild because they know no one else. Personally I have 9 toons, but only 4 are in the guild. The others are unaffiliated or in other guilds. I would think this is probably representative of most vet players: they dont add all their toons to one guild. In fact I know several vet players with toons in several guilds, so the argument that all old guilds have 20 people with 20 toons, while new guild have 400 noobs with 1 toon is hogwash.

That's understandable, however, I don't necessarily agree that adding more members at a regular basis is indicative of quality. I'm a believer in that you can achieve an ideal size and balance, thus, if such balance is attained there is no further need to recruit. And the fact that guilds are getting penalized for excessively booting characters (like I previously commented) seems a tad harsh on the mathematics, since many guilds prior to the implementation of Renown already had an booting/exclusion policy for inactivity (business as usual).

c) The People Who Claim Reknown Means Nothing, Are The People Collecting The Most Of It.

This one is a bit humorous. Look back on this thread and the first ranking thread and note which guilds those who scream reknown means nothing loudest are in. Why its almost exclusively members of guilds with lots of reknown! It is not members of old prestigious guilds who have little reknown, or new guilds complaining that its unfair that the old guilds had 300 toons on day 1 and they had nothing. It is people in guilds who have obviously made it a huge priority to collect reknown. So I wonder, how exactly do you not feel incredible hypocritical when you come on here demeaning the one thing you have obviously spent an inordinate amount of time doing? If reknown means nothing, why are you collecting it with such fervor? This would seem to be the equivalent of preaching on the in game advice channel that Green Steel is worthless, yet spending all of your time running shroud. If you believe reknown is meaningless then leave the trophies in the chests like we all do with the other pointless stuff in the game.


e) Noobguildaphobia - The Fear of Noob Guilds

Why is there such concern over what noob guilds are doing? As mentioned above, old guilds have numerous advantages over noob guilds, yet time and again there are arguments about noob guilds being too powerful or growing too fast. Nothing stops old guild from recruiting save old guilds. I am sure lots of noobs would like to learn from older guild members but many old guilds dont want them.

But then you have the audacity to say that the guilds that will take them and mentor them have too many of them? You reject someone then you complain that someone else accepted them? What is your solution, to keep noobs from being able to join guilds? That turbine shouldn't let newer guilds or new players collect reknown? The idea that you can consciously reject a resource and then complain how another person who sees value in that resource uses it, is really the height of ego-centricity.

Here is a solution, recruits some noobs into your guilds. Teach them to play just like someone taught you. But if you decline that honor, please do not complain about the rewards another person or organization gets for taking that responsibility and teaching new players to love DDO as much as you.

c) At least on my part of the argument, I didn't completely disregard Guild Renown as a power indicator, but rather elaborated on why it's not a reliable parameter. Also, there were different incentives in the first couple of weeks where people were trying to get to their first ship. Upon achieving that goal, most guilds probably took their feet off the gas pedal. It does mean something, but probably more as an internal matter of pride and accomplishment rather than a public "marathon sprint" (unless 2-3 guilds publicly and explicitly agree to a race to L50 or something like that).

d) The cream rises to the top. Elite guilds and the so-called "noob" guilds exist for a reason. There are people with different goals and orientations in the game, and you generally find that like-minded players stick together, so recruiting newbies into a powerhouse guild probably defeats the purpose of its members having joined that powerhouse guild in the first place (so they don't have to deal with newbies 24/7). I don't think that "being afraid of noob guilds" is really an appropriate term because it doesn't really matter if 'Smokey's Guild' is ahead of 'Legion', but the fact that you could actually rank it that way goes to show that using Renown to Power Rank is probably not a good measuring stick. From personal experience, most people in the end-game focused guilds have put a lot of effort and earned their reputation as well as were determined and self-motivated enough to improve and move up amongst the ranks. I know various upper echelon guilds that will always teach whenever they have PUG spots, but you can't always teach somebody who is unwilling or simply inept to learn (you find such with staggering frequency). And since much of the power gaming mantra is about completing things in a fast and efficient manner, minimizing the variance in group quality is the logical approach. I find that most people who feel "snubbed" and are vocal about it spend too much time getting angry about it instead of applying words of wisdom trying to get better or at least thinking about how they can get better (not that there isn't insulting or noob bashing for no good reason going around, which I don't condone, but it doesn't happen with all the top guilds where you can generalize it so black and white). I run with people that at one point I deemed to be noobs, and today I consider them to be of equal or higher skill level than me. It takes time, and most importantly effort, and the willingness to accept criticism to make the right changes. The funny thing is that the people I see in the "upper echelon" guilds are the ones that are most frequently crafting, coming up with new builds and concepts, discussing why X or Y strategy works or doesn't, TRing, raiding right after the timers reset to achieve multiples of 20, etc. IMO it's a matter of "seek and you shall find" and the "have-nots" have only one direction where they can move towards... up. If you have a homework question, it's your responsibility to go ask the teacher/professor, not the other way around. The instructor is not, after all, telepathic or omniscient to know the pupil's needs. It's entirely up to them.

[dasein18]

Mindsynk;
Appreciate your thinking and willingness to take critisism in stride with your goals. Here are some thoughts.

a. Agree, I do not have the desire to do this but like your thinking.

b. Agree, problematic for certain.

c. Don't agree for my guild. Archangels have not changed the way we run quests or raids. We continue to run shroud on hard & elite almost daily. Epics VON or DQ, daily, etc. We are raid focused guild. I also doubt Legion, Pestilance, or storm lords have changed the way the way they play either. They have also always been raid guilds too. Any reknown gained is due to business as usual. In fact, many of us have continued to work on TR projects started before the reknown system was put in place. We have voted within guild to not change the way we play or boot folks for inactivity as we do not care about reknown decay either.

d. Disagree, our guild has decent reknown with about 20 or so active members but due to high raiding, in my opinion. My point was that saying that a guild is a more "power guild" (or whatever term it was) for a guild that is a lowbie guild or farms spiders seems silly to me. Maybe I am wrong, maybe that is a rumor and they actualy run shroud 10 times per day on elite. No way to know, reknow is not power, and the power term is what I think most object. It is semantics at some point, but words to carry meaning. I think if you just changed your title to Reknown ranking statistics, I would be fine as that is really what you are presenting.

e. No fear on my part. I think it is great to see younger guilds pulling together as a group with a common goal. Brings people together and can make their guild ties stronger. I have also seem lots of promise and been surprised by some of the gains of these younger guilds. No doubt this is a good thing. I just questioned the term "power" given to a guild that has high reknown when we are all in agreement it does not represent power. Besides, younger guilds are great place to learn. I got my start in a small noob friendly guild and if the leader had not gone out of his way to be friendly I might have left the game due to noob hate that is so rampant in this game.

Peace

[toastjeff]

For the final time, can we simply all agree that:
a) Turbine provide scant information to do this. I can't control what they give me, I can just try to use it as best as possible.

This is my exact point. With the limited information Turbine is giving us, it is impossible to create any ranking that is meaningful. My solution isn't to give suggestions on how to do it better, my solution is to not bother doing it at all until such time Turbine gives more detailed information.

If we could see how you are arriving at your numbers (weightings for various paramaters, etc) it might help.

[Vua]

I have to agree, especially with this statement. We all know that loot tend to come in waves. Some people pull great items for a little while and then might not pull any for a bit afterwards. It is the nature of statistics that it all will supposedly even out ... Its like running the desert, I remember pulling two bloodstones within a week, but I had been farming for them for almost four months prior with no luck whatsoever.

This same "luck" factor cannot be accounted for since the reknown has only been in effect for a couple weeks now. Maybe certain guilds are getting "lucky" now but will get "unlucky" soon enough and vice versa. This is all randomness we are talking about here ...

4+ years and I still haven't pulled a bloodstone. Now my younger brother hit that chest 3 times during his 3 month stint here and pulled 2. I promptly begged him for one, and "borrowed" my other brother's bloodstone while waiting on the begged one. I have now claimed ownership of both. But still I never pull my own.

[LordLotate]

e) Noobguildaphobia - The Fear of Noob Guilds

Why is there such concern over what noob guilds are doing? As mentioned above, old guilds have numerous advantages over noob guilds, yet time and again there are arguments about noob guilds being too powerful or growing too fast. Nothing stops old guild from recruiting save old guilds. I am sure lots of noobs would like to learn from older guild members but many old guilds dont want them.

But then you have the audacity to say that the guilds that will take them and mentor them have too many of them? You reject someone then you complain that someone else accepted them? What is your solution, to keep noobs from being able to join guilds? That turbine shouldn't let newer guilds or new players collect reknown? The idea that you can consciously reject a resource and then complain how another person who sees value in that resource uses it, is really the height of ego-centricity.

Here is a solution, recruits some noobs into your guilds. Teach them to play just like someone taught you. But if you decline that honor, please do not complain about the rewards another person or organization gets for taking that responsibility and teaching new players to love DDO as much as you

[Ministry]

e) Noobguildaphobia - The Fear of Noob Guilds

Why is there such concern over what noob guilds are doing? As mentioned above, old guilds have numerous advantages over noob guilds, yet time and again there are arguments about noob guilds being too powerful or growing too fast. Nothing stops old guild from recruiting save old guilds. I am sure lots of noobs would like to learn from older guild members but many old guilds dont want them.

But then you have the audacity to say that the guilds that will take them and mentor them have too many of them? You reject someone then you complain that someone else accepted them? What is your solution, to keep noobs from being able to join guilds? That turbine shouldn't let newer guilds or new players collect reknown? The idea that you can consciously reject a resource and then complain how another person who sees value in that resource uses it, is really the height of ego-centricity.

Here is a solution, recruits some noobs into your guilds. Teach them to play just like someone taught you. But if you decline that honor, please do not complain about the rewards another person or organization gets for taking that responsibility and teaching new players to love DDO as much as you

Very well stated.

+1

[therobb]

The ratings are trying to split hairs amongst the finest guilds in the land. Honestly you would be well served to join any of them.

I'm sorry but this is completely false. Some of the guilds in your top 10 are long established and well respected as competent and even elite guilds. Many with extensive raid experience and countless TR toons.

One of the guilds in your top 5 blind invited me to join when I created two new toons last week. In both cases I accepted out of curiosity. The guild was adding new members every few seconds by blind inviting everyone in the harbor. As of a few days ago they had 700+ characters. Ten of them were above level 12. None of them were capped.

Your comparison of the two types of guilds is either disrespectful or naive.

[Lorz]

I looked at that linked to rankings and do not understand if XP is for Experience Points or for Renown.
The reason i ask is how can you tell the XP being gained?


Just asking....if XP in the rankings is Renown then i understand....but if it is....then ill have another question.

Just curious.

[Deathseeker]

e) Noobguildaphobia - The Fear of Noob Guilds

Why is there such concern over what noob guilds are doing? As mentioned above, old guilds have numerous advantages over noob guilds, yet time and again there are arguments about noob guilds being too powerful or growing too fast. Nothing stops old guild from recruiting save old guilds. I am sure lots of noobs would like to learn from older guild members but many old guilds dont want them.

But then you have the audacity to say that the guilds that will take them and mentor them have too many of them? You reject someone then you complain that someone else accepted them? What is your solution, to keep noobs from being able to join guilds? That turbine shouldn't let newer guilds or new players collect reknown? The idea that you can consciously reject a resource and then complain how another person who sees value in that resource uses it, is really the height of ego-centricity.

Here is a solution, recruits some noobs into your guilds. Teach them to play just like someone taught you. But if you decline that honor, please do not complain about the rewards another person or organization gets for taking that responsibility and teaching new players to love DDO as much as you

Nicely put! Another +1!

[Yajerman01]

I just wanted to say that the even though everyone else has stated the obvious, I did want to go on the record insofar as membership counts are concerned.

The guild member count is highly innacurate in relation with the power rating. I mean you have Madborn listed with 374 members? But in reality there are only like a dozen+ of us playing regularly.

Just saying.