Nerf tank equipment and monster Base Attack Bonus

[Pugsley]

It is ridiculous that only full plate wearers (edit: and superpowered AC multiclass builds) who meticulously plan and dedicate everything to AC can get to the point where a high-level monster will miss them on rolling a 2.

In PnP (and even Neverwinter Nights 2), cloth and light armor wearers can invest even moderate effort into raising their AC and it will matter, even at level 20. Not so in DDO.

If you have more than the minimum Dexterity for your race and you don't use it for skills or Finesse, I hope you do better after reincarnation, because you did it wrong.

I don't want to undercut my point by exaggerating. I know that some light armor wearers, with the right multiclass choices and extremely high quality gear, can get AC high enough to make some amount of difference. But it's out of reach for most players.

Something so basic as armor, out of reach. Can you imagine?

The solution is to nerf monster attack to a point where a cloth or light armor wearer can invest in AC and not be hit automatically. Unfortunately this would mean tanks as they are would be invulnerable, so tank gear must be nerfed.

Please, try not to get hung up on the particulars of my post with nitpicking. I'm sure there are a handful of anecdotal exceptions. The driving point of my post is accurate. It is way, way too hard to get AC to a point where it reduces even one point of damage taken on a quest.

Edit: The issue is not that only high AC builds can get high AC. It's that no one else can get enough to even matter. The best they can do is some lower number that may as well be 0. AC should matter for everybody.

[Hobgoblin]

It is ridiculous that only full plate wearers who meticulously plan and dedicate everything to AC can get to the point where a high-level monster will miss them on rolling a 2.

In PnP (and even Neverwinter Nights 2), cloth and light armor wearers can invest even moderate effort into raising their AC and it will matter, even at level 20. Not so in DDO.

If you have more than the minimum Dexterity for your race and you don't use it for skills or Finesse, I hope you do better after reincarnation, because you did it wrong.

I don't want to undercut my point by exaggerating. I know that some light armor wearers, with the right multiclass choices and extremely high quality gear, can get AC high enough to make some amount of difference. But it's out of reach for most players.

Something so basic as armor, out of reach. Can you imagine?

The solution is to nerf monster attack to a point where a cloth or light armor wearer can invest in AC and not be hit automatically. Unfortunately this would mean tanks as they are would be invulnerable, so tank gear must be nerfed.

Please, try not to get hung up on the particulars of my post with nitpicking. I'm sure there are a handful of anecdotal exceptions. The driving point of my post is accurate. It is way, way too hard to get AC to a point where it reduces even one point of damage taken on a quest.

really, full plate wearers?

last time i checked it was the monk splash that could get the high ac, and you had no dps to speak of. yeah ac is completly borked in this game.


you should be asking why plate mail and shield bearers cant get a decent ac

hob

[timewalker]

AC is just the most obvious symptom of it....it happened by converting a PnP game to an MMO, you ended up with a vicious circle that spiraled to what we have now. you want to see another side of it....go into a high lvl quest or epic and target and enemy, tape down your auto attack, and come back in 5 minutes if its not in auto crit. seriously even mid range enemies have more hp then a PnP deity...but that is the way of MMO's i guess.

im not sure if it would even be reversable at this point, would probley need a complete rework of the whole combat system and gear

[Pugsley]

im not sure if it would even be reversable at this point, would probley need a complete rework of the whole combat system and gear

That's not out of the question, as far as I'm concerned. I've been wishing they'd do that since about 6 months after launch.

[Roman]

... dedicate everything to AC can get to the point where a high-level monster will miss them on rolling a 2....

Sounds like your saying that it is very diffiult to become essentially immune to physical damage. Seems like something that ought to be very difficult to do.

[Pugsley]

Sounds like your saying that it is very diffiult to become essentially immune to physical damage. Seems like something that ought to be very difficult to do.

Actually the opposite. If a monster rolls a 2 and hits you, your armor does nothing. You could fight nude and it would make no difference at all.

[theb]

As things have been inflated, the 20 sided dice used has become a smaller percentage of the range. Solutions might include giving mobs a chance of critical hits when their attack bonus greatly exceeds AC (criticals need a rework anyway), giving DR for meeting AC thresholds, giving a chance to block attacks outright for armor (or demoting them to glancing blows, or blocking glancing blows) (perhaps including a rock/paper/scissors mechanic for different armor types) or expanding the dice range (which is what has been done for epics by giving trash a variable penalty to their attack).

The simplest way to crack down on melee use of pajamas would be to end the ridiculous instantaneous switching of outfits and robes.

[Adarro]

As things have been inflated, the 20 sided dice used has become a smaller percentage of the range. Solutions might include giving mobs a chance of critical hits when their attack bonus greatly exceeds AC (criticals need a rework anyway), giving DR for meeting AC thresholds, giving a chance to block attacks outright for armor (or demoting them to glancing blows, or blocking glancing blows) (perhaps including a rock/paper/scissors mechanic for different armor types) or expanding the dice range (which is what has been done for epics by giving trash a variable penalty to their attack).

This

The simplest way to crack down on melee use of pajamas would be to end the ridiculous instantaneous switching of outfits and robes.

\Unsigned

Clearly DDO used this video in their research
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wyxvv1P--Gs]

[Phidius]

...
The simplest way to crack down on melee use of pajamas would be to end the ridiculous instantaneous switching of outfits and robes.

I don't understand - once you get the Icy Rainments, what other set of PJs are you switching to?

[KoboldKiller]

really, full plate wearers?

last time i checked it was the monk splash that could get the high ac, and you had no dps to speak of. yeah ac is completly borked in this game.


you should be asking why plate mail and shield bearers cant get a decent ac

hob

/Agreed

[SolarDawning]

I don't understand - once you get the Icy Rainments, what other set of PJs are you switching to?

Dragontouched +5 prot, +5 resist, (+4 insight, or +3 dodge, or Levik's set with bracers for dodge and hate gen, or 30% healing amp, or...)

[Phidius]

Dragontouched +5 prot, +5 resist, (+4 insight, or +3 dodge, or Levik's set with bracers for dodge and hate gen, or 30% healing amp, or...)

If you're an Icy wearer, you should already have the Prot +5, +4 Insight, and +3 dodge. Taking the Icy off would be downgrading your AC - not sure how making that more time consuming to do would somehow fix the AC problem.

[Zhiel]

OPTION 1

Or just work off of two different systems for hitting.

Dodge: Avoids the hit entirely. Dex and +dodge gear affect this stat.

Defense: Mitigates the incoming damage. Heavy armour and +defense gear should affect this stat. (This does not mean remove DR. DR should be for everyone, not just solely heavy armour folks)

This means your dodge folks will be able to avoid attacks, but when they get hit - they will know about it. Defense folks will get hit a lot, but each attack will do far less damage than if that same hit struck someone else.

This also means built in drawbacks. Dodge "tanks" are at a risk of dying if there is a lot of spike damage or if they get hit too often before a heal lands. Defense folks already suffer all the mobility restrictions of heavy armour (e.g. skill check penalties). If more needs to be done, consider adding a soft or hard cap on the stats.

OPTION 2

Change the blocking mechanic for shields. If someone is in heavy armour and using a shield, the shield should block a percentage of the damage instead of just a few points. This should be based on shield size (buckler, small, large, and tower), shield enhancement level (+1, +2, etc.), any +block on enchantments on the shield and character enhancements/feats that aid blocking.

The remainder of the damage that bypasses the shield block should that be mitigated by DR and other mitigation affects active on the character. This system rewards a player actually using the active blocking system.

NOTE: This option does not address monk splash or full monk AC issues, nor does it address two-handed weapon users in heavy armour.

BTW - As someone who leveled a battle cleric, it was rather demoralizing to see someone in cloth who had nearly 3x my AC.

[SolarDawning]

If you're an Icy wearer, you should already have the Prot +5, +4 Insight, and +3 dodge. Taking the Icy off would be downgrading your AC - not sure how making that more time consuming to do would somehow fix the AC problem.

Not for monks. They don't have a reasonable way to get Insight AC +4 aside from dragontouched. Thus, Icy is just the level 14-15 stepping stone to the far superior Dragontouched at 16.

Icy: +3 resistance, +4 protection, +4 dodge
Dragontouched: +6 armor, +5 resistance, +5 protection, +4 insight

Dragontouched wins for monks. By a large margin.

[AyumiAmakusa]

You could fight nude and it would make no difference at all.

I find that statement incorrect. If you fight nude, you will scare the hell out of everybody.

P.S. Sorry for a side comment but I couldn't resist.

[Quikster]

It is ridiculous that only full plate wearers who meticulously plan and dedicate everything to AC can get to the point where a high-level monster will miss them on rolling a 2.

In PnP (and even Neverwinter Nights 2), cloth and light armor wearers can invest even moderate effort into raising their AC and it will matter, even at level 20. Not so in DDO.

If you have more than the minimum Dexterity for your race and you don't use it for skills or Finesse, I hope you do better after reincarnation, because you did it wrong.

I don't want to undercut my point by exaggerating. I know that some light armor wearers, with the right multiclass choices and extremely high quality gear, can get AC high enough to make some amount of difference. But it's out of reach for most players.

Something so basic as armor, out of reach. Can you imagine?

The solution is to nerf monster attack to a point where a cloth or light armor wearer can invest in AC and not be hit automatically. Unfortunately this would mean tanks as they are would be invulnerable, so tank gear must be nerfed.

Please, try not to get hung up on the particulars of my post with nitpicking. I'm sure there are a handful of anecdotal exceptions. The driving point of my post is accurate. It is way, way too hard to get AC to a point where it reduces even one point of damage taken on a quest.

LMAO so plate wearers just got buffed enough to have meaningful ac and now you want em nerfd. Not sure what to say about that lol.

[Aaxeyu]

It is ridiculous that only full plate wearers who meticulously plan and dedicate everything to AC can get to the point where a high-level monster will miss them on rolling a 2.

How is that ridiculous?

[Asketes]

really, full plate wearers?

last time i checked it was the monk splash that could get the high ac, and you had no dps to speak of. yeah ac is completly borked in this game.


you should be asking why plate mail and shield bearers cant get a decent ac

hob

I couldn't have said it better myself

[Quikster]

How is that ridiculous?

Because you should be able to buy high ac for turbine points

[AestorTheKnight]

The driving point of my post is accurate.

Im sorry but I disagree. Last night in Shroud with my Fighter Tank the party leader asked me to Intimidate Tank Arraetrikos in part 4, because we had a newbie / squishy group.

I did so. Stood there with my Shield equipped, blocking, Stalwart stance on, Combat Expertise on - to reach an AC of around 72. (My fighter doesnt have a Chattering Ring yet, or a ToD set, or any epic AC gear.)

Arraetrikos - a Raid Boss - was missing me 90% of the time. Watching the combat text scroll above my Fighters head it read "Miss" "Miss" "8 red (glancing blow)", "Concealed - (Cloudkill)" "Miss" "Miss"

Ok ok, 72 is averagely high AC... but Arraetrikos is a Raid Boss. An AC of 60 would mean he would miss's sometimes.

And in normal quests, say Shavarath Quests on Normal - an AC of 55 - easily achievable by a Cleric or FvS, a non Stalwart or Defender, Fighter or Paladin, an AC specced Rogue, or Monk, or even a Caster that has dedicated some gear into AC and uses a Shield, will cause the mobs to miss you sometimes. Sure the mobs will still hit you. But 55 AC in shavarath does make a difference. It does mitigate some damage.

Simple proof of this. Take a Barb (25AC) and a Monk (55AC) into Sins of Attrition - take notice of the difference in damage taken by both of them. The Barb will need constant healing in every fight, but the Monk will avoid about 50% of incoming damage.

AC does make a difference. If you want your 35 AC Cleric to be missed by Barbazu in Sins of Attrition, im afraid your estimation of the difficulty of these quests, and high level content in general is innacurate. Thats my basic evaluation of AC.