Eville Characters are a D&D Must!

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Ok, thank you for posting the actually description behind the quest. This actually violates a common truth about Eberron then, the Silver Flame and the Sovereign Host have an understanding with each other and respect each others point of view, at least that's according to the books that Keith Baker (Creator of Eberron) wrote. This quest makes no sense then and should be about fighting a group of Soverign Host dissedents that are trying to turn Followers of the Host to follow the Dark Six instead. That would have made a LOT more sense.

Right. This is why everyone feels icky about this quest.
They aren't bad guys at all. They're just a secret meeting of the Host, or something.
And we're sent in to slaughter every last one of them.

[BLugas]

Ok, for one it's not so much the issue with good characters as it is with the flaws of humanity and the aspect that trying to do something that is wrong through "good intentions" can cause even more harm.

Also, i don't remember anywhere where Kaelyn the Dove become an Erinyes, she stayed on the path of Lawful Good, or maybe even turning to Chaotic Good, follow the path she believed to be good and right, following her own moral compass and not the letter of law set before her by Ilmatyr or Kelemvor. She remeained a good character in the end. At least that's my understanding. And what Happened with Martin Luther from what you are describing is an example of someone, like Kaelyn, who wanted to fight the injustice in the Catholic Church went to rally the hearts of the people to fight against the lies. But, as his actions good in intetion, that they really where, where affected by the demenor of the people of the era, and it was those who turn to wrong actions, not Martin Luther himself, who did the wrong carrying it over as what Martin Luther wanted, which it wasn't because Marting Luther relized that certin actions due have consequences weither or not your doing them for good or evil, and when trying to sway the hearts of others you have to be careful because though you might bring them on the path you want them to follow, thier own moral compass, if they have one, or thier own greed or ill demeanor will take and use that for thier own ends.

The flaw isn't with the characters being good, it's in the events and humanity that are affected by the actions of the good, and evil can turn those actions, though good, to evil in the end if, evil itself isn't watched.

At least this is my perspective on the situation.

in her "good ending" Kaelyn ends up with black wings, similar to those of certain erinyes , this ending is in my opinion the true one, for that is the form she appears on the strange dais , and for the wall who as of 1479 exists no longer , she became a beacon of hope for the faithless, a helping hand, who whilst being hurt, would still fight again the injustice of Kelemvor. I am pointing her as a chaotic good character due to her defiance against the will of lord Ao ( according to Kelemvor), since (according to Kelemvor) the wall was something that kept the balance between mortals and gods , but then again , Kelemvor might be lying, just like he ordered Kaelyn to do when she was a doomguide , still, Kaelyn also defied the will of other celestials, resulting in her expelling from the house of the triad, and the blackening of her wings, just like what happened to the erinyes ...
And Kaelyn was not lawful good, she was neutral good; she presumably was lawful good when she was a doomguide, but after she shifted her faith, she became neutral good, like Ilmater himself would later become, I presume she became Chaotic good, due to her defiance on the wills of Kelemvor and the Celestials and her transforming into an erinyes of sort, since that only happens to celestials who deviate from the lawful good, lawful neutral and neutral good alignment...

Your perspective on Martin Luther is right, that was what I was trying to say, but could not find the words to do it... He endured, and grew strong, however, he could not fight against the will of his superiors , who corrupted his words to their will, resulting in hundreds of deaths, in the end, however Luther (at least partially) achieved his objective, and made other people see that the church was corrupted, acting like those who were originally their oppressors...

[Bekki]

Right. This is why everyone feels icky about this quest.
They aren't bad guys at all. They're just a secret meeting of the Host, or something.
And we're sent in to slaughter every last one of them.

My Paladin characters will not run this quest.
Just like they Will not Turn over the evil Book in the "Dead Girl" Quest.
I run the Quest and destroy the Book.

Evil character have long been a part of D&D history... and tradition.

But playing evil characters is more of a Novelty than tradiditon.

In Episode... 170 or so... of DDOCast they talked about te difficulty
in Making Evil Characters available.

This game for the most even in Pen & Paper, center around Vanquishing Evil
more so than promoting it... Now I admit I have run Evil adventures in the past.
And I also admit that they were Quite fun in their own right... However that being said...
I feel it would be VERY difficult for the Dev's to try to...

A. Add the evil Alignment in a Way that would Avoid the "Horde/ Alliance attitude."

and

B. Now create all new quests surrounding this whole new element to the game.

I immagine that was likely one the Prime factors in the decision to preclude
adding the evil alignment in the first place.

I would be okay with them adding evil Alignments to the game.
so long as it will not create more Problems than it is worth
And that is where I have the Big question mark about so...

I am reserving judment on this for now.

[TiranBlade]

in her "good ending" Kaelyn ends up with black wings, similar to those of certain erinyes , this ending is in my opinion the true one, for that is the form she appears on the strange dais , and for the wall who as of 1479 exists no longer , she became a beacon of hope for the faithless, a helping hand, who whilst being hurt, would still fight again the injustice of Kelemvor. I am pointing her as a chaotic good character due to her defiance against the will of lord Ao ( according to Kelemvor), since (according to Kelemvor) the wall was something that kept the balance between mortals and gods , but then again , Kelemvor might be lying, just like he ordered Kaelyn to do when she was a doomguide , still, Kaelyn also defied the will of other celestials, resulting in her expelling from the house of the triad, and the blackening of her wings, just like what happened to the erinyes ...
Your perspective on Martin Luther is right, that was what I was trying to say, but could not find the words to do it... He endured, and grew strong, however, he could not fight against the will of his superiors , who corrupted his words to their will, resulting in hundreds of deaths, in the end, however Luther (at least partially) achieved his objective, and made other people see that the church was corrupted, acting like those who were originally their oppressors...

Ah ok, I never actually got that Ending from the game, actually I don't think I was able to finish the final fight. But she would have been something new then with the black wings, and the devil you where talking about, like all devils is Lawful Evil in alignment, it's what seperates them from the demons who are Chaotic Evil. I'll look at my MM and see what I can find about what she might have actually turned into, I actually think it's something along the lines of a fallen half celestial or something. Sorry if I came off as a bit stand-offish, that wasn't my intention.

[BLugas]

Ah ok, I never actually got that Ending from the game, actually I don't think I was able to finish the final fight. But she would have been something new then with the black wings, and the devil you where talking about, like all devils is Lawful Evil in alignment, it's what seperates them from the demons who are Chaotic Evil. I'll look at my MM and see what I can find about what she might have actually turned into, I actually think it's something along the lines of a fallen half celestial or something. Sorry if I came off as a bit stand-offish, that wasn't my intention.

I was not saying she became a baatezu , I am saying that she, just like the erinyes, became a fallen celestial , not due to her evil actions(that she never made), but due to her defiance against the gods and the other celestials, still, she is one of my favorite characters , she did a noble thing, to fight against the slavery that the gods were submitting mortals to... to make Kelemvor judge people for what they were and did, not for who they worshiped...I still hate Kelemvor , though, and I am sure that other gods would also support Kaelyn.
judging people for what they believe, Gann for instance, was faithless, but his ideals and actions were all about love , just like the very Ideals of the goddess Sune, He believed in love, that love was what guided mortals , in my opinion, he acted much like a heartwarder of Sune...if he believed in love, why couldnt he be considered as a worshiper of Sune afterlife?I am pretty sure that this new form of judgment would make both the gods (most, if not all but Kelemvor) and the souls from the mortals happy, and this would also put an end to the slavery that is worshiping a deity in particular.

PS.:not all devils are lawful evil, only the Baatezu are, just like not all of the demons are chaotic evil, just the Tana'ri are;take for instance mephits, they are chaotic evil, but they are still devils, just not Baatezu, likewise, not all of those who belong to the Tana'ri are truly demons , the succubi for instance, are also sometimes considered as devils...

oooh and /signed , we need to respect diversity, even though I consider myself to be chaotic good (I was banned once for promoting anarchy) , I believe we must respect each other, and if evil characters turn out to be ******s, there is always the report harassment button, which always seem to work (at least AGAINST me) and ofc, there should be a way more roleplaying in this game and options/quests based on alignment , at least in my opinion, but then again, in my opinion gnomes are more important than halflings, just like tieflings are more important than drow as player characters...

[jwdaniels]

EVIL!!!!


No.

[BLugas]

EVIL!!!!


No.

DISCRIMINATION!!!!

No.

-
INSANITY!!!!

Yes.

(look at my sig..)

[Diyon]

Maybe, as they say, there is more than meets the eyes, in this quest.

Devs, take note: if you don't already have this planned you so NEED to make a follow up quest to this along those lines. That would completely justify the absurdness of the quest as is.

[tanzer]

will never happen.. turbines avoiding the bs flak from churches.. organized religion is the the vorpal to your idea... and they ahve loaded dice

[rezo]

If you want to play an evil character play an warforged with "Improved Fortification" feat. hehehe

[Zorth]

Elaborate on temples and you might have somehthing here.

Your idea binds well with the guild TEMPLES (COUGH! I mean SHIPS, SAME THING) and could mesh with the current limited ddo game.

[Zorth]

If you want to play an evil character play an warforged with "Improved Fortification" feat. hehehe

This feat is useless, your post is awesome.

[Rakian_Knight]

First of all, I don't know what kind of groups you all play with but I've never had a problem with an evil character in a campaign.

Second of all, if you don't like evil in your campaign don't let anyone near Book of Vile Darkness (one of my favorite books btw).

If you think their is a problem with adding evil into the game, look at the cleric and wizard spell list. Create undead and Unholy Blight are two spells from the list that are "EVIL". Now they make Create undead useless by making the summons weaker then anything in the game and they turn on you after 12 seconds, but Unholy Blight can still be used by Neutral Clerics and it still works. Another thing, if evil was such a big deal with the game, why would the first PrE that they add to wizards be the Pale Master aka a master of the undead. The only thing that I could see being a problem would be if they added evil alignments they would have to add Rebuke undead (pretty much a mass charm undead) that might become a little overpowered.

However, looking at it from a roleplaying aspect, again we are all secretly evil. We get bonuses for destroying peoples homes and killing everything in sight. Not to mention, oops what am I to do, I spilt coffee on this trog.? Do we A) help him out, or B) cut his head of and burn him to a cisp? In DDO, we go with B for fear of being sued.

[Uska]

One big misconception players have about evil chars is that they act only for their own benefit and dont care about the party they are with.

Any halfway wise or intelligent evil char should realise that the trust within his party is very helpfull for his wealth and survival.

Some of the best campains i played were with evil chars and i had tons of fun, because of evil teamwork

The griefer thing i think is BS... griefers will grief... they dont need any excuse.

If they are trully playing some of the evil alignments they will turn on their party or they arent the alignment they think they are. and evil party members might work together but they would never ever trust one another.

[uhgungawa]

If they are trully playing some of the evil alignments they will turn on their party or they arent the alignment they think they are. and evil party members might work together but they would never ever trust one another.

Lucy is EVIL

[sweez]

What if Eville != evil and you're all waaaay off-topic?

Just a thought.

[GraveCat]

I would love having evil alignments and the fitting Classes/PrEs in DDO (missing my blackguards).
And sorry, but I find all the "OMG EVIL CHARS, PLAYERS WILL GRIEF a bit laughable. Those who want to try and grief will do so, with or without alignment as excuse, and be dealt with as always.

I can also not see much of a point in the 'quests being unbelievable for evil chars' complain, there isn't really enough RP in all of DDO to fill a good sized thimble with anyway, nor are all existing quests THAT believable for good/neutrals anyway (also, its not like a smart evil char would mind being taken as a hero from the trash he wants to rule over/take an Ax to later, it will just make his work easier).
But as we not even have the more neutral classes (druid) in game yet...I won't hold my breath.

[Dendrix]

evil aligment is just a way to justify griefing

/agree

Evil alignment for PC's is a bad thing.

[Alabore]

Ok, thank you for posting the actually description behind the quest. This actually violates a common truth about Eberron then, the Silver Flame and the Sovereign Host have an understanding with each other and respect each others point of view, at least that's according to the books that Keith Baker (Creator of Eberron) wrote. This quest makes no sense then and should be about fighting a group of Soverign Host dissedents that are trying to turn Followers of the Host to follow the Dark Six instead. That would have made a LOT more sense.

Devs, take note: if you don't already have this planned you so NEED to make a follow up quest to this along those lines. That would completely justify the absurdness of the quest as is.

Weird; I had already replied to these.
I guess my post went poof since I was spoiling bits from VON3.



...

No big deal: long story short, DDO is already making chars do evil things.
Worse, it's making them do murderous things, sometimes without rhyme, reason or style.

The underlying issue with some quests is: you seldom get the chance to parley.
Sometimes it makes sense - mindless foes cannot be reasoned with.
Sometimes we feel rail-roaded into fighting anything that moves.

It's not even an alignment issue; it's just a lack of negotiation options that pnp and single player c-rpg players are used to.



...

Oh well...
I'll get used to how MMOs work eventually.

[Yaga_Nub]

Did anyone ever find out what eville is?