Eville Characters are a D&D Must!

[theb]

The Silver Flame is all sorts of jacked up. Sure, they're a Lawful Good religion, more or less (I think. They might be Neutral Good), but they practically worship a demon, and aren't afraid to commit genocide (see: the great lycanthopy purge).

The Silver Flame isn't afraid of genocide in the same sense Cookie Monster isn't afraid of cookies.

[Diyon]

The Silver Flame isn't afraid of genocide in the same sense Cookie Monster isn't afraid of cookies.

....they love to eat lots of genocide?

[azrael4h]

I hated that my Paladin of the Sovereign Host so blithely was able to walk in, slaughter fellow followers of the Host, commoners, Paladins, and Clerics alike. Since then I haven't ran that particular quest. My other characters may not list their deities, but my Cleric, Paladin, and even when I had a Favored Soul, all follow the Sovereign Host. The player should have a choice of fighting the Silver Flame Blackguards, or slaughtering the commoners.

Incompetence, at the least, to not have at least a few alignment options that don't totally gimp you. The only one I can think of is in Deleras, Dead Girl's quest. You can chose to destroy the spell book you recover, but you get nothing in return. You should be getting some xp for acting in your alignment.

[theb]

....they love to eat lots of genocide?

nom, nom, nom!

[GhoulsTouch]

Now wouldn't that be something...changing plot focus on quests based on alignment. I think the Devs should focus less on game mechanics and more on campaign setting.

[Uska]

Very few gms I have played with over the last 30+ years allowed players to play evil characters and that has always seemed for the best, we had a few people who didnt stay in our groups becuase of it but since they wanted to be evil that was proalby for the best. EGG put evil in the game but always thought players should be heros and try to play good characters.

[Uska]

Waiting for 4 years for "darker" choices to be made available.

Some big wig made a judgement call and removed a fundamental part of the game.

Picture a FAVOR point system exchamnged for an ALIGNMENT point system.

It's not a fundamental part of the game its a minor part that should have never been included. Maybe you could play evil without just doing it to be a jerk but I have never seen anyone else able to do it.

[wisdomstorment]

Thinking more about Purge the Heretics and realised that they could make the quest more palatable by:
a) Setting a max commoner kill count, otherwise quest failure, ala Stealthy Reposession (with the Kobold Prophets).
b) 0 commoner kills gives optional quest XP.
c) Convince commoner heretics to repent (using Bluff, Diplomacy or Intimidate) gives optional XP

Having alignments matter in the quest would be ideal for an RPG, but then again, this isn't an RPG is it?

[Scraap]

Entirely depends on which interpretation they used. Old-school PHB wise, evil as far as acceptable player-character setup was supremely ego-centric, so -

Lawfull-Evil would tag along with the party to meet a given goal, sticking outwardly to every law of a given land while twisting them as much as they could in their favor, and depending on just *how* full of themselves they are, also twisting the laws in the party as a whole's favor since your unknowing lackeys are furthering your goals, and good help is so hard to find. Mafia style, basically.

Neutral Evil end up in the same boat, but would be less of a stickler for the regs. Take assassin: Doesn't matter how good or evil, a contract is a contract and it doesn't much matter what you do to fulfill it. If that means hanging out with Sir-Smites-Alot so he grabs the targets attention while you get to work, all in a days business.

Where most DMs I know draw the line is Chaotic Evil for PCs or players that don't understand the distinction, since that's the alignment combo that's all about giving into your darkest impulses at every opportunity if played correctly. Even then, there's a bit of leeway provided one of the motivating factors the player cooks up for the character is a secret dread of the party gutting them in their sleep if they cause too much trouble too noticeably.

Then there's Insane Evil. The players that decide for whatever reason their characters have no care whatsoever for the consequences of their actions. They have a tendency of searching for pit-traps and having the ceiling fall on them, trying to er... 'have surprise intercourse' with an elf that turns out to be an elder metallic green dragon shape-shifted and in a bad mood, ect ect.

[Diyon]

It's not a fundamental part of the game its a minor part that should have never been included. Maybe you could play evil without just doing it to be a jerk but I have never seen anyone else able to do it.

It is possible to pull off, but its not the easiest thing to do. My friend who has done I only let do because he also DMs and understands what can and cannot work acceptably in a group (and does he sure push those limits sometimes, his rogue was always taking a little "extra" and tricking the party out the occasional find yet had the cleric and paladin thinking he was the best guy in the world, CN char here. He did not however rob the party blind, I think the only time he took any magic item off someone was when the wizard really ticked him off by not letting him look at a recently found amulet.)

[Severak]

....they love to eat lots of genocide?

You already eat tomes. And SP, if you're a fail-build WF barbarian.

Why not?

[Tumarek]

Very few gms I have played with over the last 30+ years allowed players to play evil characters and that has always seemed for the best, we had a few people who didnt stay in our groups becuase of it but since they wanted to be evil that was proalby for the best. EGG put evil in the game but always thought players should be heros and try to play good characters.

One big misconception players have about evil chars is that they act only for their own benefit and dont care about the party they are with.

Any halfway wise or intelligent evil char should realise that the trust within his party is very helpfull for his wealth and survival.

Some of the best campains i played were with evil chars and i had tons of fun, because of evil teamwork

The griefer thing i think is BS... griefers will grief... they dont need any excuse.

[TiranBlade]

Ok, I can see there is a misconception about the Silver Flame here and the Purge the Heretics quest. Though I don't completely agree with playing any of the D&D religions of any version. (I go Agnostic usually, because to myself I can't even pretend to believe in anything but my own faith, which I don't want to discuss here so that I don't offend anyone.)

The Church of the Silver Flame order is an established order from the "Silver Flame" which is supposed to be a pure source of good. The Silver Flame itself is something along the lines of being the Acended Spirit of a Coatl that fought in the War of Dragons Vs. Demons, this War took place in the very ancient days of Eberron and the Coatls fought on the side of good with the Dragons of Syberis against the Demons of Khyber. The war ended in the Demons defeat forcing the demons back into the depth of Khyber beneth Eberron's surface. The Silver Flame later appeared as the acended spirit of a coatl that fought in that war who's purpose as a new "god" to cleanse the world of evil.

In Purge the Heretics your sent on a quest by the Silver Flame church to kill heretics who worship an evil god of the Eberron world and in that world setting you will see the Silver Flame fight against evil in all it's forms and whether they be commoner or not, if they commoner is performing evil acts then the Silver Flame must act against them to prevent the spread of evil in Eberron.

That's at least the basis for why the quest goes the way it does. I know it may philisophically be wrong to the view point of many players(I myself am not sure if I remember entirely how the quest rolls, but, I, myself also have an issue with it), but based on the campaign setting it fits perfectly to one of the rolls that the Silver Flame's beliefs follow.

[Memnir]

No.™

[TiranBlade]

No.™

Ah, yes and I agree, please do NOT put evil alignment in, the first thing that will happen is a mass influx of evil character and then soon, more evil people will exist than good, then what then, all of the games quest are technically based around being a Lawful Good Character Extreme to a Chaotic Neutral Extreme, they might not all fit in one charategory and tough decisions are there always for good characters, but in the end all the quests are centered around a Good-Neutral Area, and I would perfer it to stay that way.

Especially because the moment evil alignment hits, PrE's start getting alignement Prereqs (i/e. Assassin being evil, Ninja Spy being non-good, Kensai, Stalward Defender, Purple Dragon Knight(when the add it in finally) being Lawful only, etc., etc.) and talk about messing with the game a lot.

[Drakos]

I think the subject line says it all, but if I may elaborate:

One of the great things about Eberron is the whole idea of alignment and ideological affiliations being separate. You've got Priests in Good temples who are just as Eville as can be, and vice verse. The lines of loyalty and ethics get blurred.

I understand it's a 'family game,' but consider the fact that even 'Sleeping Beauty' and 'The Lion King' have Eville characters.

I dont think the bad karma of being Eville is avoided by not looking at Eville, but it becomes evident as the consequences of Eville are observed. Just because people could play Eville characters doesn't mean they'd run around anymore willy-nilly than they already do. Nor do the Good aligned characters in the game always do the right thing by each other, anyways.

Part of the whole Fantasy genre is the struggle between Good and Eville, and which one the character DECIDES to be.

Heck, I don't even like playing Eville characters, myself! I just think it's preposterous that this most basic of choices isn't part of creating our characters. Personally, I'd find it more INTERESTING if I have to keep an eye on my buddy the Eville Sorcerer.

Just sayin'.

/not signed

DDO has evil, right whaere it needs to be. I really don't see the need to allow up to play evil characters. Yes, technically it is allowable in PnP, but in my 30 yrs of playing PnP I've played exactly ONE evil character and that was only for ONE session. D&D is for the fight against the evil in the realm IMHO. We do not need this option.

[BLugas]

<Lawful Neutral a la Zhjaeve philosophy>

The difference between good and evil is thin... none of them act analyzing the full consequences of their actions :

by giving him something that he has not earned, perhaps all that you've wrought is more pain...

-the problem with good characters...

As you can see, good characters seek to save others, to help others, but in doing so, they blind themselves with the false feeling of hope;in their way of helping others, they will alleviate the pain of others, but do not seek to destroy the source of it (unless said character is a Savior (chaotic good), but those care little about themselves, and wish to free others of their burdens , whatever the cost (example: Kaelyn the Dove,who sought to bring down the wall of the faithless, and (presumably) eventually succeeded in doing so, but she became an erinyes in the process), chaotic good characters are martyrs, they seek to save others even if it might destroy themselves.) ;most good characters act too quick to help others, and by giving others something they did not deserved, they might wrought more pain to them, they do not measure their actions, the best historical example of a good character who faced this is Martin Luther, who wished to free others from the lies spread by the catholic church, but eventually, in doing so, he unintentionally made others to rebel against their leaders, these rebels unleashed their hatred on everyone and everything they saw,killing thousands of innocents in the process, eventually, he would learn from this, and would became one of the few good characters who analyzed their actions, however, the deaths that he caused haunted him for the rest of his life ...

In her heart was the death of our people.A crusade, which would turn our hearts to the hearts of the illithids;We would become those who enslaved us- in our wills, where it could never be unmade

-Zhjaeve, on gith's actions...
The problem with evil characters

Evil characters seek to make others suffer, pay for their actions . They wish to inflict the pain which was once inflicted on them, Evil characters are children crying out for love, who were never loved, and that will never love...They wish to achieve on them what others failed, they wish to be perfect, to be loved, whatever the cost ; they want to end the suffering inflicted on them, but they believe that the only way of achieving this is to make the others feel what they felt... they don't care about their actions, they are blind, they wish to destroy those who inflicted pain on them, but in doing so, they become like their oppressors were...they are hurt, and as long as they don't realize this, they will hurt other people too... A good historic example of this alignment is , no offense meant , is Genghis Khan , who lived a life with no happiness, he wished to make others love him, but his actions were reckless, he wished to be loved because of his ability to inflict pain:his power; his recklessness eventually became his doom, after trying to rape a woman, wishing to be "loved" by her, he got castrated , and after this he started to pay for the pain he inflicted on others, he died after falling of a horse, breaking his neck, because he couldn't ride well, due to the infections caused by his botched castrations, riding was made painful, and finally, he got what he deserved...

Endure. In enduring, grow strong.

Acceptance
The way to happiness is not achieved by protecting others from the truth or making others to flee from the truth; The only way to achieve happiness is to face the truth, to accept it, to learn from it, and to keep it from happening again, to make others learn from you, to accept what you truly are; the only way to be loved and to truly love is to drop the masks you shield yourself with, and to show others who you truly are, to reveal the indignities that you were submitted to, to report those who hurt you, for that is the only way to keep pain from happening again...Endure, gather strength, and when you are strong enough, strike. Think twice before doing something, for what is done cannot be undone.... Free yourself from your fears, face them, don't give up, break your routine, do something new, for that is the only way to know what you like and what you don't: that is the only way to truly know yourself , and when you know yourself, there will be nothing to fear...

[Alabore]

In Purge the Heretics your sent on a quest by the Silver Flame church to kill heretics who worship an evil god of the Eberron world and in that world setting you will see the Silver Flame fight against evil in all it's forms and whether they be commoner or not, if they commoner is performing evil acts then the Silver Flame must act against them to prevent the spread of evil in Eberron.

Quest overview from ddowiki reads:
Inquisitor Gnomon of the Silver Flame has been angered by a 'cult' beneath the House Phiarlan ward that preaches the faith of the Sovereign Host to the poor and indigent. Although Gnomon's motives seemed suspect, you agreed to drive the worshipers out of their hidden chapel.

Plot-wise, the cult might be a front for evil worship, but you are not sent to investigate.
You are sent to eradicate.

Game-wise, most mobs were immune to Law and Holy dmg.
Halfling mercs were Lawful Neutral at worst.

Fluff-wise, the quest makes little sense.
Silver Flame in Eberron is presented as the *new* religion, branched off from Sovereign Host.
As such, it is described as tolerant of other cults, and more interested in discovering demon-worship than culling out heresy.
Especially when alleged heresy is within another religion, which is also the leading church in Khorvaire.

Maybe, as they say, there is more than meets the eyes, in this quest.
As it is, I find it a bit illogical, inconsistent with setting and on the whole a bit disturbing too.
I usually skip it.



...

Edit:

Oh, and yes, I found myself wondering too "what on Khyber am I doing here killing commoners!?".

[TiranBlade]

<Lawful Neutral a la Zhjaeve philosophy>

The difference between good and evil is thin... none of them act analyzing the full consequences of their actions :



-the problem with good characters...

As you can see, good characters seek to save others, to help others, but in doing so, they blind themselves with the false feeling of hope;in their way of helping others, they will alleviate the pain of others, but do not seek to destroy the source of it (unless said character is a Savior (chaotic good), but those care little about themselves, and wish to free others of their burdens , whatever the cost (example: Kaelyn the Dove,who sought to bring down the wall of the faithless, and (presumably) eventually succeeded in doing so, but she became an erinyes in the process), chaotic good characters are martyrs, they seek to save others even if it might destroy themselves.) ;most good characters act too quick to help others, and by giving others something they did not deserved, they might wrought more pain to them, they do not measure their actions, the best historical example of a good character who faced this is Martin Luther, who wished to free others from the lies spread by the catholic church, but eventually, in doing so, he unintentionally made others to rebel against their leaders, these rebels unleashed their hatred on everyone and everything they saw,killing thousands of innocents in the process, eventually, he would learn from this, and would became one of the few good characters who analyzed their actions, however, the deaths that he caused haunted him for the rest of his life ...
to be continued...

Ok, for one it's not so much the issue with good characters as it is with the flaws of humanity and the aspect that trying to do something that is wrong through "good intentions" can cause even more harm.

Also, i don't remember anywhere where Kaelyn the Dove become an Erinyes, she stayed on the path of Lawful Good, or maybe even turning to Chaotic Good, follow the path she believed to be good and right, following her own moral compass and not the letter of law set before her by Ilmatyr or Kelemvor. She remeained a good character in the end. At least that's my understanding. And what Happened with Martin Luther from what you are describing is an example of someone, like Kaelyn, who wanted to fight the injustice in the Catholic Church went to rally the hearts of the people to fight against the lies. But, as his actions good in intetion, that they really where, where affected by the demenor of the people of the era, and it was those who turn to wrong actions, not Martin Luther himself, who did the wrong carrying it over as what Martin Luther wanted, which it wasn't because Marting Luther relized that certin actions due have consequences weither or not your doing them for good or evil, and when trying to sway the hearts of others you have to be careful because though you might bring them on the path you want them to follow, thier own moral compass, if they have one, or thier own greed or ill demeanor will take and use that for thier own ends.

The flaw isn't with the characters being good, it's in the events and humanity that are affected by the actions of the good, and evil can turn those actions, though good, to evil in the end if, evil itself isn't watched.

At least this is my perspective on the situation.

[TiranBlade]

Quest overview from ddowiki reads:
Inquisitor Gnomon of the Silver Flame has been angered by a 'cult' beneath the House Phiarlan ward that preaches the faith of the Sovereign Host to the poor and indigent. Although Gnomon's motives seemed suspect, you agreed to drive the worshipers out of their hidden chapel.

Plot-wise, the cult might be a front for evil worship, but you are not sent to investigate.
You are sent to eradicate.

Game-wise, most mobs were immune to Law and Holy dmg.
Halfling mercs were Lawful Neutral at worst.

Fluff-wise, the quest makes little sense.
Silver Flame in Eberron is presented as the *new* religion, branched off from Sovereign Host.
As such, it is described as tolerant of other cults, and more interested in discovering demon-worship than culling out heresy.
Especially when alleged heresy is within another religion, which is also the leading church in Khorvaire.

Maybe, as they say, there is more than meets the eyes, in this quest.
As it is, I find it a bit illogical, inconsistent with setting and on the whole a bit disturbing too.
I usually skip it.



...

Edit:

Oh, and yes, I found myself wondering too "what on Khyber am I doing here killing commoners!?".

Ok, thank you for posting the actually description behind the quest. This actually violates a common truth about Eberron then, the Silver Flame and the Sovereign Host have an understanding with each other and respect each others point of view, at least that's according to the books that Keith Baker (Creator of Eberron) wrote. This quest makes no sense then and should be about fighting a group of Soverign Host dissedents that are trying to turn Followers of the Host to follow the Dark Six instead. That would have made a LOT more sense.