useless after 5 or 6 spells?

[Carlll]

By that logic, barbarians must suck as well, because I never see "need Barbarian for Dee Pee Ess".

There's no shortage for DPS classes in this game, so you'll likely never see LFM specifically looking for them.

Now you're just being silly.
All those raid groups that have the caster symbols disabled are looking for DPS.
Ok, they rarely literally write "need Dee Pee Ess". Well, sue me.

[LordRavnos]

Yes I am including 16-20 quests, if I really want too I can lead the kill count, I just prefer to be lazy sit back and cast Haste Blur and Greater Heroism cause its easier. Why bother paying attention and using my skills to the max when I can buff and toss out an occasional spell and get the same results just a bit slower

[richieelias27]

Maybe you just dont have experience with high DPS melee.
I've taken 2 Wizards to 20. Dont know if that counts but lets consider Ritual Sacrifice. What do you think is more efficient - Mass Hold Person or FoD, FoD, ..., FoD, FoD, FoD, FoD, FoD, oom? Or heck, are you gonna bother with Firewall in there?

Check which class forum you are in, then come back. Wizard is a completely different mindset from Sorc. My sorc dropped FoD the instant she got wail. I run out of SP so rarely I cease to even pay attention to it.

Single target melee DPS is FAR higher from pretty early on. The AoE can compensate this if you pull loads of groups together but most parties dont do that but kill group after group. Firewall fades quickly from level 12 or so (except vs Undead, it's still good against those at that level), run with DPS melee once in a while to find out about it.

At level 12 a couple of things happen. Melee get their 2nd PrE and start cleaning up in quests. Healers just got Heal so their healing power went up a lot and they rely less on the slow but save kite-killing that casters are so good at. Clerics even get their new aura which makes healing a raging bunch of melees through a quest even easier. Mass Cures become common which again tips the scales towards hordes of melees.

Yes, gimp melee will expect you to do a lot of Firewalling in Gianthold. Proper melee wouldnt even notice it. The age of Firewall is gone at 12. It comes back in Epics but we all know that's not because of "great DPS" but because we can break the AI with it.

Only an idiot casts wall of fire, or any spell for that matter when there are only 2 or 3 mobs to beat down. Sorc Dps shines with groups that know how to use it: I.E. mass invis - run past massive amounts of things - wall of fire - watch them die - finish the quest in half the time slower groups would take.

If your caster's method of killing things is "slow", well then that is solely your issue.

[English_Warrior]

It really comes down to efficient mana use:

Don't try to kill every mob you see...pick and choose your targets...I can't tell you how annoying it is to be a melee character beating down a trash mob and to have a caster waste precious party mana on disintegrate/PK/FOD.....is total overkill.

Don't feel like you have to contribute to every little skirmish.....we dont care about your kill count....we want your mana available when we are faced with overwhelming odds or nasty end bosses.

[Carlll]

My sorc dropped FoD the instant she got wail. I run out of SP so rarely I cease to even pay attention to it.

Fine. Have fun wailing devils with a Fort save of 40 (on Normal).

mass invis - run past massive amounts of things - wall of fire - watch them die

They'll fix it soon enough.
That you have to defend your caster's usefulness with an obviously broken mechanic does speak for itself.

Oh, and have fun burning down devils.

[shagath]

Oh, and have fun burning down devils.

I use chain lightning nowadays for devil nuking. It's fixed now and it arcs as it should. It's lovely. I love my evocation focus once again.

I can understand why people like firewall around middle levels or on epic quests but it's just too low damage for my taste at everywhere else. Makes people lose hp and healers sp.. And it kills slow(unless you are facing some easy monsters and with them 1-2x dbf should be enough anyhow). Mass hold kills usually tough monsters way faster than firewall.

[Maegin]

It really comes down to efficient mana use:

Don't try to kill every mob you see...pick and choose your targets...I can't tell you how annoying it is to be a melee character beating down a trash mob and to have a caster waste precious party mana on disintegrate/PK/FOD.....is total overkill.

Don't feel like you have to contribute to every little skirmish.....we dont care about your kill count....we want your mana available when we are faced with overwhelming odds or nasty end bosses.

This.

[richieelias27]

Fine. Have fun wailing devils with a Fort save of 40 (on Normal).


They'll fix it soon enough.
That you have to defend your caster's usefulness with an obviously broken mechanic does speak for itself.

Oh, and have fun burning down devils.

Obviously I'm Wailing on the exact same things you were talking about wasting time and SP casting FoD over and over on. I also already stated that Wall of fire is teh awesomesauce for 50% of endgame content. Naturally I was talking about the endgame content WITHOUT devils. For devils, use something NOT fire based.

You've been around long enough to know that the current incantation of invisibility IS the fixed version.

I mean, its not like you cant read.... so try that next time you're responding to me.

[Carlll]

Obviously I'm Wailing on the exact same things you were talking about wasting time and SP casting FoD over and over on.

When people run this quest i brought as an example, YOU DONT HAVE Wail yet. Sure, you can wait a couple of levels before you set foot into it with your caster, but why would you?
Because you suck at killing in level appropriate quests?

I also already stated that Wall of fire is teh awesomesauce for 50% of endgame content.

It's not "awesome". It just breaks the AI when you climb up a place the monsters cant reach. In any case, it doesnt do much DPS, it's just cheap and you dont need much healing. That doesnt make FW "the king of DPS".
Anyways, Hold Monster is faster and less lame.

Using non-Fire based damage spells vs Devils just makes my point: Puny, irrelevant DPS that any Barb or Fighter just yawns about and you blowing all your mana for practically nothing. That is EXACTLY my point and thats why noone likes "DPS-casters".

My point stands: If you care mostly about killing stuff, Arcane isnt for you. From 7-12 or so Firewall will kill lots, yes, but outside of these levels you suck at killing.

[epochofcrepuscule]

Sure i did. The second one is quite good with a Vorpal axe.

If you need vorps on any build, reroll. Vorps are for gimps that cannot dish dps like a real character. Stunning Blow FTW

Personally i like using Wail in Waterworks, it totally rocks the quest. So you are right, i was totally off with my stance that casters arent that great at killing, a level 20 Arcane will rip Waterworks apart real good.

Burning hands? I am pretty sure that just =win in waterworks. Ya know, if you invest points in a certain stat that makes up your dc's....

But maybe, just maybe some players do Ritual Sacrifice before they get Wail? Maybe...
But i see your point. If you do quest waaaayyy overlevelled, casters can kill quite decently.

casters were soloing that quest at lvl 14... try again bud, when you actually learn to play.

DC is too low.


Yes, thats why Wizards are preferable most of the time.

Wizards arent preferable, its all about playstyle.

"x" brings up the kill count. Have a look at it some time when you spend all your juice on killing and see how "well" you do, then you might reconsider.

I do when I am trying to lead it... and I always do lead it. Put someone who knows how to play a caster behind one and they will always destroy the kill count.

I used to be disappointed with arcanes when i expected them to shut down 80% of the monsters in a quest and instead they threw Magic Missiles and Fireballs around for puny damage. But not anymore... I just dont expect anything from Arcanes anymore.

sounds like whining about how arcanes dont need to be grp players and can zerg... unlike you.

When people run this quest i brought as an example, YOU DONT HAVE Wail yet. Sure, you can wait a couple of levels before you set foot into it with your caster, but why would you?
Because you suck at killing in level appropriate quests?

Answered in previous quote

It's not "awesome". It just breaks the AI when you climb up a place the monsters cant reach. In any case, it doesnt do much DPS, it's just cheap and you dont need much healing. That doesnt make FW "the king of DPS".
Anyways, Hold Monster is faster and less lame.

firewall is king of dps because of the damage it does per sp cost. I know math is hard for you, but thats ok. If you need it broken down let me know and I will.

Also, most casters dont try to bug out the AI, we run in circles around our firewall... ya know, cuz we are faster then the mobs...

Using non-Fire based damage spells vs Devils just makes my point: Puny, irrelevant DPS that any Barb or Fighter just yawns about and you blowing all your mana for practically nothing. That is EXACTLY my point and thats why noone likes "DPS-casters".

EXCEPT, when you grab enough of them for orange alert and get them all in just a few cones of cold... 2-5 depending on crits and saves...

My point stands: If you care mostly about killing stuff, Arcane isnt for you. From 7-12 or so Firewall will kill lots, yes, but outside of these levels you suck at killing.

learn to play an arcane then comment plz, ty.

Random color responses..... or are they?

[richieelias27]

I'd reply but epochofcrepuscule pretty much said the same thing I'dve responded with.

Carlll: I dont know what you're doing wrong with your caster, but everyone else playing a Sorc's dps is just fine. Quite simply EVERYTHING a sorc can do works best when you gather mobs together. Personally I limit myself to 1 to 2-3 spells per pull unless said pull includes something with a name, and enemy casters typically get individual attention if they arent noticed by the rest of the group. If I see my group taking things so slow that me casting a spell would be a waste of time, I might prep a symbol of stunning/dancing ball with a web and maybe a couple firewalls in a neat little line, aggro 20 or so mobs, pull them back into it and show them how it is done.

Regarding Wail vs FoD: Didnt see the post where you referenced Ritual Sacrifice. Totally my fault there. However, I was assuming late/end game quest DC's. I drop a Wail even in quests with Devils and it usually drops at least 2. Yes the majority still make the save, but 2 down instantly with one spell that has zero chance of pulling aggro onto myself? Sounds like an excellent opener to me.

[rjohnson.linuxuser]

Carlll:
Sorcs are known for nuking! Mine is only at lvl 16 but still tops the list when I try. Honestly the kill count isn't as important as finishing the quest, but none of my casters are useless and few use CC as their primary focus. I want to apologize on behalf of the community on failing to answer your question (I feel).

Spell points - turn off metas on spells that are not going to benefit from them (or the bonus is negligible). Don't cast something with a fort save on the baddest melee mobs and don't count on charming a red named caster all the time. With that said, with focii and gear you can likely overcome most DC's. Also, you have a team. You don't have to cast everything you have on all the mobs.

DPS - if you are built right it isn't hard to contribute in kills and over all damage, but improper feats/enhancements (just like any other class!) will hinder you. Keep Potency items and lore items to improve your damage and crits.

On builds - I prefer warforged because of immunities and self healing (usually wands or reconstruct), but you want a to max int or cha if you are wizard or sorc and put the vast majority of your remaining (if not all) into con. Hit points are critical (from my experience) and the spell points (even as a wizard) will be there if you aren't crazy with your casting. DC's will be manageable for most things set up like that, but just like locks and traps - you will need gear to improve your performance for the tougher challenges.

Lastly - go with the majority vote on these forums. No one here knows everything, so take an average of the answers and you will not likely be too far from the right answer. Carlll seems to be the only one here that is complaining about DPS/Sorcs/Insta kill spells. So, go with the other guys. Mainly, have fun. I don't worry if I top the kill list, I try to keep everyone alive and finish the quest.

[200xth]

I've only been playing a few months, and I just started my only caster about a month or so ago, so I'm still learning a lot (some of these threads have been great, btw). Mine's up to level 15, and while he's not the greatest sorc (I made some mistakes along the way), I don't think there's too many groups I've been in feel like he's a waste. There's times he shines, and times I know he could be better, but overall, I think I've been of use to the group I was in.

The best thing I've learned so far has already been stated. Don't feel like you need to kill everything. I used to feel under pressure all the time to cast something to help out in a fight, particularly when I first started. What I eventually learned is that sometimes, the best thing I can do in a fight is nothing.

The melee guys like beating on things. They're good at it. The ranged guys like shooting things. They're good at it. There's plenty of times where the two of them can handle the job without any help from me. This lets them do what they like to do (kill things with heavy, sharp, or pointy objects) and allows me to save SP's for when they will need my help. In the end, this makes everyone happy since it hopefully helps get the quest done a bit more smoothly.

[Qwijy]

Stoning or holding things that a monk is about to beat on will make you some friends too. Monk ki generation greatly increases with critical hits, they can fill up their ki bar in no time when beating on a held/stoned mob

[Carlll]

If you need vorps on any build, reroll. Vorps are for gimps that cannot dish dps like a real character. Stunning Blow FTW

A keen claim that is easily dismissed. Stunning Blow has a CD of 15 seconds, Vorpal has an average CD of 5 seconds.
Nevermind that not all melee classes can achieve a relevant SB DC. Kind of a problem in a thread where you are trying to debunk my claim that Sorcs/Wizs are not a viable DPS class.

Thruth is that Vorp is a staple for any melee build, possibly putting it aside when maximally equipped but not earlier. NO build will go optimally to end game without Vorps.
So, yeah, big claims there...

Burning hands? I am pretty sure that just =win in waterworks. Ya know, if you invest points in a certain stat that makes up your dc's....

Man, if im supposed to wait until i get Wail until i do Ritual Sacrifice i might as well do Waterworks or Irestone with it.
Overlevelled is overlevelled.

I do when I am trying to lead it... and I always do lead it. Put someone who knows how to play a caster behind one and they will always destroy the kill count

You dont, you arent, and no, they wont.

sounds like whining about how arcanes dont need to be grp players and can zerg... unlike you.

It sounds like Emancipation from gimps. FvS says Hi.

firewall is king of dps because of the damage it does per sp cost. I know math is hard for you, but thats ok. If you need it broken down let me know and I will.

DPS per time is relevant too but it doesnt matter that much - Mass Heal beats Firewall both in D/mana as D/time. Hard to believe i know, simply because IT HAPPENS SO FAST.

Also, most casters dont try to bug out the AI, we run in circles around our firewall...

Right...

EXCEPT, when you grab enough of them for orange alert and get them all in just a few cones of cold... 2-5 depending on crits and saves...

Agreed, like BB. But typically groups dont run like that. Yes, you can solo like that but when grouping this doesnt fly. Partly because of the party gets annoyed, partly because of HP scaling up and you getting BBQ'd.
I wish ppl would stop with the "when i was alone in the quest..." argument.

Carlll: I dont know what you're doing wrong with your caster, but everyone else playing a Sorc's dps is just fine.

Yah, thats why raid groups disable the arcane symbols when they want DPS. Oh, wait...

Quite simply EVERYTHING a sorc can do works best when you gather mobs together.

Yah, and most groups simply dont like huge overpulls.

Regarding Wail vs FoD: Didnt see the post where you referenced Ritual Sacrifice. Totally my fault there.

Alright.

However, I was assuming late/end game quest DC's. I drop a Wail even in quests with Devils and it usually drops at least 2.

No.
They save on a 2.
If you drop 2, you pulled 40. Do you really or would your healer send you to hell then (as i would)?

The ranged guys like shooting things. They're good at it.

They arent.
Dont be ridiculous, we are having a civilized discussion here.

This lets them do what they like to do (kill things with heavy, sharp, or pointy objects) and allows me to save SP's for when they will need my help. In the end, this makes everyone happy since it hopefully helps get the quest done a bit more smoothly.

Get to Shavarath and you'll see what they eventually want - Haste, Displacement, and dont get in the way. What you do with the rest of your mana doesnt matter simply because its irrelevant.

Stoning or holding

I kind of said that you are supposed to CC as a caster. Not that stone will land though... With a Fort save of 40 and all. But im sure in Tor you can greatly impress with Stone...

[Qwijy]

I kind of said that you are supposed to CC as a caster.

Indeed you did. I was adding to 200xth's point:

The melee guys like beating on things

Hold/Stone some mobs in front of a monk and sometimes you actually hear them giggling over voice chat.

[Meko99]

Some of the **** on this site is just stupid, utter trash from people with no creativity or understanding of spell usage. If you can't manage more then a few spells and play button masher type then you should get a hammer or something and club things cause frankly you are a caveman. Magic requires some dicipline, quick thinking, and knowledge of your opponents. If anyone in any post here says casters are useless or nearly useless and can just do a few things then 'get out of the way' they are how to say, stupid. These are the people are say 'Oh yeah we got a sorcerer, why not boot them and get another melee?' should ban these people out of the sorcerer forum.
I soloed a ton of quests while leveling up, some on elite only 2 levels above it, its not difficult it just requires practice and patience. You can't run mob to mob and just unload on them like a paladin, sometimes you have to charm a few of them and let them kill eachother in order to make it the most sp efficent as possible, you should be able to kill almost anything with one spell, or remove it from a threatening position, this can be anything from charming it, turning it to stone, or just dismissing it ect. If you got several, charming just one of them will turn the focus of the other two and allow your group to beat on them and take less overall damage, or if you are alone you can throw down a firewall and let it assist your charmed mob.
At lower levels before firewall there is still a large selection of usefull spells, I personally loved electric loop. It jumps to mulitiple targets and has a pretty decent rate of stunning targets. combined with burning hands you can do some serious damage to multiple targets with just a 2 spell combo. Example: 4 humands vs 1 sorcerer of lower level. run in a half circle around them to group them up. electric loop to do some damage and stun them. Run another half circle to get the 1 or 2 that didn't stun back into the middle ofthe ones that are stunned. and give them a burning hands, for the cost of 2 spells you did damage to all 4 of them if you herded them successfully.
Firewall by no means is the king of all spells but it has its uses against certain mobs and if you put points into fire/ice damage/crits an ice storm/firewall combo can be devestating to most enemies.
Some monsters just beg to be firewalled like the ice dragon in TOR. maxamize and criss cross firewalls over it. run around it with expidtious retreat, cast invis so it aims behind you. You can keep this up for as long as you have mana, which should be quite a while if you dont waste sp's on unecessary things.
You should always keep a variet of spells on your life, I keep a couple area spells and direct damage spells of various types, fire, ice, an electric one and a force spell cause you never know which one you'll need. Its also smart to keep the old reliable ones around like disitingrate, dismiss and fod. I try to use them sparingly but always seem to be running into stuff at the unexpected times and you wish you had disintigrate or dismiss.
The people here who are talking trash about sorcerers dont seem to have invested enough time or practice into really getting into the class or maybe they just suck at it.
Why the heck is someone whining about a pull of 40? do they even play this game? Most encounters are not small groups, they are spawning points and waves of enemies were a melee class is not going to be able to fight off 10 enemies and then 10 more a minute later, they just can't kill them fast enough and that is when the caster saves the day, use suggestion/charm on a few make your own little army and you completely turn the tides of the encounter, this isn't WOW and people aren't pulling group elites.

The only time i've ever meleed on my sorcerer is when i'm utterly out of SP's and I use a paralyzing staff to defend the healer or try to keep the mobs from causing anymore damage to the group.

[shagath]

The only time i've ever meleed on my sorcerer is when i'm utterly out of SP's and I use a paralyzing staff to defend the healer or try to keep the mobs from causing anymore damage to the group.

I'm not trying to be a bad version when I say this but if you are out of sp when monsters have low enough save for paralyze, you are doing something wrong.

[Brennie]

Hold/Stone some mobs in front of a monk and sometimes you actually hear them giggling over voice chat.

Try doing it to mobs in front of the dual-wielding heavy pick kensai. He will literally cackle.

[Carlll]

If anyone in any post here says casters are useless or nearly useless and can just do a few things then 'get out of the way' they are how to say, stupid. These are the people are say 'Oh yeah we got a sorcerer, why not boot them and get another melee?'

Why should i boot a caster whom i let into my group?

You can't run mob to mob and just unload on them like a paladin, sometimes you have to charm a few of them and let them kill eachother in order to make it the most sp efficent as possible

Oh, but the thread seems to be about exactly the opposite - whether Sorcs with their "great DPS" capabilties can just nuke everything down.
Which they cant. Because they run out of juice then.
Thanks for agreeing.

you should be able to kill almost anything with one spell, or remove it from a threatening position, this can be anything from charming it, turning it to stone, or just dismissing it ect.

No, you will not be able to do that in Shavarath. The saves are too high.
Depending on tomage and exceptional Char, about 1 in 3 mind affecting spells will land. 1 in 20 of Fort affecting spells will land (the monsters auto-fail the save when they roll a 1).

Why the heck is someone whining about a pull of 40?

Because
-someone claims he on average kills 2 Devils (who save on a 2) with one Wail; thus statistically the Wail has to affect 40 creatures
-and because huge overpulls are the main argument of the "Sorcs can DPS" crowd; they mean to pull lots of groups together and then nuke them down with area effect spells like Cone of Cold (thus making the nuking more mana efficient because many more monsters are affected); you are RIGHT that groups donot tend to do such pulls.